Hungary and Poland blocked EU recovery package (resolved)

[Nakena]

I do not believe that a EU member can be ejected. However under certain grave circumstances they might be suspended. Austria got sanctions in 2000 for letting Jörg Haider into the government, who was the leader of the volkish-nationalist FPÖ.

He didn even pulled an Orban. The times since then have changed since then.



Save for Erasmus students and a certain type of young urban hipster elites, the EU has a rather limited appeal but in east europe and amongst those who want to get in.

That's why I think it's pie in the sky. Either change what it is to be actually pan-European or get rid of it. It should provide pandemic money for as long as it exists, so I object to the two doing this, but I'm not in love with the EU.

The problem is that to make an omelette or a pancake you need eggs. In this case that would mean the right people. Unfortunatly Europe hasnt the right people. Neither in charge nor in opposition. If they exist, they are not yet in game or have yet to emerge. So all that Europe and the EU got is post-modern woke liberal mediocry or a fake-national populism whose only substance is to be against and thus is itself a cannibalistic force of subversion, decay and destruction as much if not more as what it claims to fight against.

[Novo Portugal]

At what point will the EU stop allowing themselves to be pushed around by Poland and Hungary and start cracking down on their nonsense by ejecting them?

I do not believe that a EU member can be ejected. However under certain grave circumstances they might be suspended. Austria got sanctions in 2000 for letting Jörg Haider into the government, who was the leader of the volkish-nationalist FPÖ.

He didn even pulled an Orban. The times since then have changed since then.

There really isn't a sense of nationalism for the EU either, nothing like "we're Europeans who want to be distinct from the world and show our unity," but rather are creating a nation based on globalism, multiculturalism, mass migration, which doesn't really work.

Save for Erasmus students and a certain type of young urban hipster elites, the EU has a rather limited appeal but in east europe and amongst those who want to get in.

Erasmus just made me love my country even more and showed me that the beauty of Europe and the world it's the different cultures and countries, I love my country and I don't hate anyone's nation, being throughout Europe made me realize that despite common ground, it's definitely not my country it's just my continent, similarities exist but so does it exist with Angola and Mozambique which I, as a Portuguese whose dad came from Portuguese Africa, share a lot more (language religion even culture since its heavenly influenced by Portuguese culture as well) than with swedes and Moldovans.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Endangering their own citizens for petty reasons, I see. The Hungarian and the Polish governments are idiots.

[Salus Maior]

For being supposedly a single "nation", they sure are falling apart along national lines quite a bit.

Funfact: The EU in its current form is also the by product by the (often trash-talked and unjustly blamed) Pan-Europe Union which was for many years led by the late Otto von Habsburg who also played a big role in opening the Iron Curtain from Hungary to Austria. He was also for many years member of the EU parliament. I do not believe the current course of the EU is something he had in mind though.

Yes, I know. His Imperial Majesty believed in a lot of what his father fought for, it's a shame he couldn't have done so from his rightful throne.

[Nakena]

Funfact: The EU in its current form is also the by product by the (often trash-talked and unjustly blamed) Pan-Europe Union which was for many years led by the late Otto von Habsburg who also played a big role in opening the Iron Curtain from Hungary to Austria. He was also for many years member of the EU parliament. I do not believe the current course of the EU is something he had in mind though.

Yes, I know. His Imperial Majesty believed in a lot of what his father fought for, it's a shame he couldn't have done so from his rightful throne.

I read that at some point Franco did offer (or considered) Otto von Habsburg the spanish crown. Not sure if true however.

[Major-Tom]

Taking down your citizens and an entire continent of citizens to "own the libs. These fucking small-brained peons in power in Hungary and Poland, I swear, their childlike antics are kinda funny until you realize they're hurting people.

With that said, does the EU have a formal process to kick out member states? I'd have no problem with the EU formally deciding to eject them and see how they (Poland, Hungary) enjoy the economic fallout.

Edit: They apparently have no mechanism to eject member-states, but they are able to suspend voting rights for EU member states, suspend them, or take away economic benefits (IE the hordes of development $$$ the EU frivolously sends to Poland, for instance).

[Salus Maior]

Yes, I know. His Imperial Majesty believed in a lot of what his father fought for, it's a shame he couldn't have done so from his rightful throne.

I read that at some point Franco did offer (or considered) Otto von Habsburg the spanish crown. Not sure if true however.

Huh, that'd be pretty surprising.

[The Greater Ohio Valley]

Kick Hungary and Poland out of the EU and NATO pls, this is just another example of their becoming too much of a liability to keep around.

Do you want civil war?

Do you?

Because that's how you get civil war.

Y tho.

Biden being as Milquetoast as he is is probably the only reason he can squeak through unremarked despite all the evidence of fraud.

“Despite all the evidence of fraud” okay there buddy, you really just dashed any shred of credibility your arguments had left.

If he did something like trying to join the EU...

Starting a civil war over something like joining the EU would be the least mature response over such a thing. Like a child shitting themselves over being taken to the dentist.

Can we please kick Hungary and Poland out of the EU now?

If only....

[Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana]

Yes, I know. His Imperial Majesty believed in a lot of what his father fought for, it's a shame he couldn't have done so from his rightful throne.

I read that at some point Franco did offer (or considered) Otto von Habsburg the spanish crown. Not sure if true however.

He wanted to stamp out Carlist influence, while making them think they had a voice in government

[Albrenia]

Can they just jettison Hungary and Poland to the clutches of Russia already?

[Claorica]

At what point will the EU stop allowing themselves to be pushed around by Poland and Hungary and start cracking down on their nonsense by ejecting them?

They wont the EU will be a defacto Polish policy arm for the time being.

I think Europe owes Poland after the Wing Hussars saved them at Vienna so it is ok really.

Don't forget the Vistula in 1920.

[Nakena]

It's kinda telling that the primary reaction of many pro-EU liberals here is "kick them out so they don't disturb our happy party zone"

Just an observation. Given that previously there was quite some attempt at getting countries like Ukraine into the liberal western sphere of influence against the "evil putinist Russia".

[Western Fardelshufflestein]

Can they just jettison Hungary and Poland to the clutches of Russia already?

No don't subject them to occupation again--

[Senkaku]

The Hungarians and the Poles can enjoy the warm embrace of their Muscovite fellow travelers of the path of authoritarian kleptocracy if they're unwilling to be good Europeans. I think it's high time Germany fully re-armed at this point, and the French should probably help them so they can do it faster. Western democracy can no longer remain supine in the face of this onslaught.

[Nakena]

The Hungarians and the Poles can enjoy the warm embrace of their Muscovite fellow travelers of the path of authoritarian kleptocracy if they're unwilling to be good Europeans. I think it's high time Germany fully re-armed at this point, and the French should probably help them so they can do it faster. Western democracy can no longer remain supine in the face of this onslaught.

Germany basically just today declined an french offer of forming an closer alliance.

German Defense Minister Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer on Tuesday said it was an "illusion" to think that Europe could go it alone on security without the US and NATO.

"The idea of Europe's strategic autonomy goes too far if it fosters the illusion that we can guarantee security, stability and prosperity in Europe without NATO and without the US," she said in a keynote speech at the University of the German Federal Armed Forces in the northern city of Hamburg.

"Without America's nuclear and conventional capabilities, Germany and Europe cannot protect themselves. Those are the plain facts," she said.

Read more: How will Europe guarantee its security without the US?
New chance

Among other things, she pointed out that Europe relied on the US heavily for its missile defense and nuclear weapons.

"To make up for this would take decades by any serious calculation and would make our present defense budgets look more than modest," she said.
THAAD missile defense system in action in South Korea

Europe depends on US missile defense capabilities, Kramp-Karrenbauer said

However, she said that there was a general political consensus that Germany and Europe should take on more responsibility, and that the change of administration in the US provided new chances as well as new challenges.

"Now we Europeans can show that we want to use this chance and how," she said.

Read more: How does Germany contribute to NATO?
Criticism from across the border

Her remarks come after French President Emmanuel Macron criticized an op-ed by Kramp-Karrenbauer in Politico earlier this month in which she espoused much the same viewpoints.
French President Emmanuel Macron

Macron called Kramp-Karrenbauer's views a 'misinterpretation of history'

In an interview with Le Grand Continent magazine, Macron called on Europe to use the change of administration in the US to build up its security autonomy, saying the US would respect the continent only if it were sovereign in defense matters. He called Kramp-Karrenbauer's comments about Europe's reliance on the US a "misinterpretation of history."

Despite the apparent difference of opinion, however, Kramp-Karrenbauer seemed to support Macron's view on autonomy in her speech on Tuesday.

"We want Europe to be a strong partner for the US on an equal footing and not a charge in need of protection," she said. "The new American president, Joe Biden, must see and feel that we are striving precisely for that."

[Senkaku]

It's kinda telling that the primary reaction of many pro-EU liberals here is "kick them out so they don't disturb our happy party zone"

Just an observation. Given that previously there was quite some attempt at getting countries like Ukraine into the liberal western sphere of influence against the "evil putinist Russia".

Well, clearly that was an overreach, and first Europe must get its own house in order if it wants to properly confront Putin's Russia. That starts with making the Hungarians and Poles comply. Start by crippling their economies by withdrawing EU economic assistance and perhaps imposing further sanctions, and if they don't come to the table after that then kick them out of the EU and tighten the noose. Incentivize them to come back by promising even more money if they come back and return to the democratic fold, but make the continuation of such payments conditional on their good behavior if they return, so in the future if they try this shit again they will face immediate consequences.

Otherwise, the EU will be stuck with enemies inside the walls, and will be unable to function, much less successfully confront Russian authoritarianism and revanchism.

[Senkaku]

The Hungarians and the Poles can enjoy the warm embrace of their Muscovite fellow travelers of the path of authoritarian kleptocracy if they're unwilling to be good Europeans. I think it's high time Germany fully re-armed at this point, and the French should probably help them so they can do it faster. Western democracy can no longer remain supine in the face of this onslaught.

Germany basically just today declined an french offer of forming an closer alliance.

German Defense Minister Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer on Tuesday said it was an "illusion" to think that Europe could go it alone on security without the US and NATO.

"The idea of Europe's strategic autonomy goes too far if it fosters the illusion that we can guarantee security, stability and prosperity in Europe without NATO and without the US," she said in a keynote speech at the University of the German Federal Armed Forces in the northern city of Hamburg.

"Without America's nuclear and conventional capabilities, Germany and Europe cannot protect themselves. Those are the plain facts," she said.

Read more: How will Europe guarantee its security without the US?
New chance

Among other things, she pointed out that Europe relied on the US heavily for its missile defense and nuclear weapons.

"To make up for this would take decades by any serious calculation and would make our present defense budgets look more than modest," she said.
THAAD missile defense system in action in South Korea

Europe depends on US missile defense capabilities, Kramp-Karrenbauer said

However, she said that there was a general political consensus that Germany and Europe should take on more responsibility, and that the change of administration in the US provided new chances as well as new challenges.

"Now we Europeans can show that we want to use this chance and how," she said.

Read more: How does Germany contribute to NATO?
Criticism from across the border

Her remarks come after French President Emmanuel Macron criticized an op-ed by Kramp-Karrenbauer in Politico earlier this month in which she espoused much the same viewpoints.
French President Emmanuel Macron

Macron called Kramp-Karrenbauer's views a 'misinterpretation of history'

In an interview with Le Grand Continent magazine, Macron called on Europe to use the change of administration in the US to build up its security autonomy, saying the US would respect the continent only if it were sovereign in defense matters. He called Kramp-Karrenbauer's comments about Europe's reliance on the US a "misinterpretation of history."

Despite the apparent difference of opinion, however, Kramp-Karrenbauer seemed to support Macron's view on autonomy in her speech on Tuesday.

"We want Europe to be a strong partner for the US on an equal footing and not a charge in need of protection," she said. "The new American president, Joe Biden, must see and feel that we are striving precisely for that."

Not surprising. Their aversion to defense spending is pathological at this point, which is partly our fault. If only there were a way to separate militarism from neo-Nazism in the mind of the public... :/

But if the Germans won't, then America will have to step up and save them, as usual.

[Albrenia]

It's kinda telling that the primary reaction of many pro-EU liberals here is "kick them out so they don't disturb our happy party zone"

Just an observation. Given that previously there was quite some attempt at getting countries like Ukraine into the liberal western sphere of influence against the "evil putinist Russia".

What reaction would be appropriate reaction to someone repeatedly going against the EU's values and now intentionally getting people killed just to make a petty point?

[Nakena]

Well, clearly that was an overreach, and first Europe must get its own house in order if it wants to properly confront Putin's Russia. That starts with making the Hungarians and Poles comply. Start by crippling their economies by withdrawing EU economic assistance and perhaps imposing further sanctions, and if they don't come to the table after that then kick them out of the EU and tighten the noose. Incentivize them to come back by promising even more money if they come back and return to the democratic fold, but make the continuation of such payments conditional on their good behavior if they return, so in the future if they try this shit again they will face immediate consequences.

Otherwise, the EU will be stuck with enemies inside the walls, and will be unable to function, much less successfully confront Russian authoritarianism and revanchism.

Once a country has been left the EU its not so easy to come back. So kicking them out isnt an option at all. The rest, perhaps, after the lastest shit, there will be serious consequences. One way or another. It may be a breaking point of the EU. So it's happening all. Right now as we speak.

Not surprising. Their aversion to defense spending is pathological at this point, which is partly our fault. If only there were a way to separate militarism from neo-Nazism in the mind of the public... :/

But if the Germans won't, then America will have to step up and save them, as usual.

No. Military spending is a no brainer in german politics afaik. It isnt going to win elections and it doesnt plays much a role in german political establishment.

The rising left-liberals are even more hostile towards it. Doesnt helps theres a number of weird right-wing drama with the elite unit KSK and other units and a generally low morale situation.

Also the reaction to the french initiative shows that current german leadership is more than ever focussed on being following close US leadership.

[Trollzyn the Infinite]

Scumbag Stanisław and Scumbag Szófia are at it again.

[Nakena]

It's kinda telling that the primary reaction of many pro-EU liberals here is "kick them out so they don't disturb our happy party zone"

Just an observation. Given that previously there was quite some attempt at getting countries like Ukraine into the liberal western sphere of influence against the "evil putinist Russia".

What reaction would be appropriate reaction to someone repeatedly going against the EU's values and now intentionally getting people killed just to make a petty point?

Put the package into a multilateral treaty, excluding Hungary and Poland. Outside of the regular EU channels. Harms the EU as institution but gets the stuff through. At the expanse of the EU and as well sends a clear signal to governments of HU and PL, that if they block the others will play without them and they wont get any of the pie or cake either. Money talks. It's the easiest way to lure them back to the table.

[Albrenia]

What reaction would be appropriate reaction to someone repeatedly going against the EU's values and now intentionally getting people killed just to make a petty point?

Put the package into a multilateral treaty, excluding Hungary and Poland. Outside of the regular EU channels. Harms the EU as institution but gets the stuff through. At the expanse of the EU and as well sends a clear signal to governments of HU and PL, that if they block the others will play without them and they wont get any of the pie or cake either. Money talks. It's the easiest way to lure them back to the table.

That sounds reasonable, actually. Are they allowed to do that within the rules of the EU, as in make treaties outside of the EU's control while in it?

[Senkaku]

Well, clearly that was an overreach, and first Europe must get its own house in order if it wants to properly confront Putin's Russia. That starts with making the Hungarians and Poles comply. Start by crippling their economies by withdrawing EU economic assistance and perhaps imposing further sanctions, and if they don't come to the table after that then kick them out of the EU and tighten the noose. Incentivize them to come back by promising even more money if they come back and return to the democratic fold, but make the continuation of such payments conditional on their good behavior if they return, so in the future if they try this shit again they will face immediate consequences.

Otherwise, the EU will be stuck with enemies inside the walls, and will be unable to function, much less successfully confront Russian authoritarianism and revanchism.

Once a country has been left the EU its not so easy to come back. So kicking them out isnt an option at all.

Why? Because it would be hard or inconvenient, it's totally off the table? If you're not prepared to use full measures and you want to leave them a clear way to triumph in the conflict, why bother even trying to solve the problem in the first place?

The rest, perhaps, after the lastest shit, there will be serious consequences. One way or another. It may be a breaking point of the EU. So it's happening all. Right now as we speak.

I have zero confidence in the Germans or the smaller countries to show any backbone this time around, and my faith in the French is minimal at best, since even if they do end up having a spine they'll probably be alone.

Not surprising. Their aversion to defense spending is pathological at this point, which is partly our fault. If only there were a way to separate militarism from neo-Nazism in the mind of the public... :/

But if the Germans won't, then America will have to step up and save them, as usual.

No. Military spending is a no brainer in german politics afaik. It isnt going to win elections and it doesnt plays much a role in german political establishment.

The rising left-liberals are even more hostile towards it. Doesnt helps theres a number of weird right-wing drama with the elite unit KSK and other units and a generally low morale situation.

Okay, we agree. Their aversion to defense spending is pathological. Why do you always seem to think me saying they should do something is the same as me saying they will do it?

Also the reaction to the french initiative shows that current german leadership is more than ever focussed on being following close US leadership.

If Trump didn't teach them that we're not reliable enough to cling onto as a security blanket, I don't know what will. In the absence of any German will to act, the US should step up to the plate to punish the Hungarians and Poles, but I don't think we will, and we also can't just permanently act as Germany's all-protecting mama bear so they don't have to trouble themselves with the thought of having to make preparations for violence or conflict. They need to face the cold hard truth and get in bed with Paris, because the domestic political situation over here makes it very difficult for us to reliably help them with this sort of thing.

[Rusozak]

Poland is being pretty ballsy for someone in invading distance.

[Nakena]

Put the package into a multilateral treaty, excluding Hungary and Poland. Outside of the regular EU channels. Harms the EU as institution but gets the stuff through. At the expanse of the EU and as well sends a clear signal to governments of HU and PL, that if they block the others will play without them and they wont get any of the pie or cake either. Money talks. It's the easiest way to lure them back to the table.

That sounds reasonable, actually. Are they allowed to do that within the rules of the EU, as in make treaties outside of the EU's control while in it?

I believe so. I am not 100% sure. That aside... It would require quite some actions and coordination but its possible.

However that comes at the end of it, before there will be drama and several major EU players are very comitted to the idea to do things the EU way for its own sake. So probably all those options will be exhausted first. On top of that PL/HU wont make much friends with their actions amongst the other members who are in dire cash. So lots of trouble is going to happen.