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Arecibo Radio Telescope Has Collapsed

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Devionsa
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Postby Devionsa » Tue Dec 01, 2020 8:56 pm

That's terrible news. And a great loss to astronomy.

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Nobel Hobos 2
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Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Tue Dec 01, 2020 8:57 pm

Postauthoritarian America wrote:
Cordel One wrote:NASA used to be the one going into space, though.


NASA was never much more than a conduit for funding for Lockheed, Martin Marietta and the rest of the military-industrial complex that benefitted from the wasteful manned space program. Go visit Canaveral some time, that's who's manning what amounts to the manned space program trade show booths. Which would be acceptible if they were doing science instead of blowing soap bubbles and lighting farts in space for shits and giggles.


Of all the "military-industrial complex" stuff the US spends money on, why would you object to space programs?

You know why they built GPS, don't you?
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Postauthoritarian America
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Postby Postauthoritarian America » Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:01 pm

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
Postauthoritarian America wrote:
NASA was never much more than a conduit for funding for Lockheed, Martin Marietta and the rest of the military-industrial complex that benefitted from the wasteful manned space program. Go visit Canaveral some time, that's who's manning what amounts to the manned space program trade show booths. Which would be acceptible if they were doing science instead of blowing soap bubbles and lighting farts in space for shits and giggles.


Of all the "military-industrial complex" stuff the US spends money on, why would you object to space programs?

You know why they built GPS, don't you?


I object to human space programs that send our best and brightest to be sacrificed to the vain conceit that there is somewhere other for humanity than Earth. Particularly insofar as their main purpose is to pump up the balance sheets of the military-industrial complex.
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Parxland
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Postby Parxland » Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:05 pm

Guys, it's okay! This is why we have duct tape!
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Postauthoritarian America
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Postby Postauthoritarian America » Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:14 pm

Parxland wrote:Guys, it's okay! This is why we have duct tape!


At some risk of repeating myself, if Neil Armstrong hadn't been able to replace the circuit breaker he tore off getting out of the Eagle lander with a felt-tip pen Buzz Aldrin happened to bring with him -- the circuit breaker that controlled the igniters for the rocket engine to get them off the surface of the airless Moon -- their mummified bodies would still be gathering moon dust in the Sea of Tranquility. On the other hand we got a few rocks that an unmanned lander could easily have recovered, pens that write upside down and Tang. mmm Tang.
8:46 | "There are but two parties now: traitors and patriots. And I want hereafter to be ranked with the latter and, I trust, the stronger party." -- Ulysses S. Grant, 1861 | "You don't get mulligans in insurrection." | "It is long past time to admit the blindingly obvious: the Republican party has been hijacked by fascist extremists. It is now a far-right organization in league with neo-Nazis who have made it painfully clear they want to overthrow democracy and seize power, using violence if necessary." | "I didn't vote to overturn an election, and I will not be lectured by people who did about partisanship." -- Rep. Gerry Connolly

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Nobel Hobos 2
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Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:22 pm

Postauthoritarian America wrote:
Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
Of all the "military-industrial complex" stuff the US spends money on, why would you object to space programs?

You know why they built GPS, don't you?


I object to human space programs that send our best and brightest to be sacrificed to the vain conceit that there is somewhere other for humanity than Earth. Particularly insofar as their main purpose is to pump up the balance sheets of the military-industrial complex.


"Colonizing" other planets has always seemed rather far-fetched to me. But NASA also does Earth science. And I like GPS.
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Postauthoritarian America
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Postby Postauthoritarian America » Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:23 pm

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
Postauthoritarian America wrote:
I object to human space programs that send our best and brightest to be sacrificed to the vain conceit that there is somewhere other for humanity than Earth. Particularly insofar as their main purpose is to pump up the balance sheets of the military-industrial complex.


"Colonizing" other planets has always seemed rather far-fetched to me. But NASA also does Earth science. And I like GPS.


imo it's better than Tang.
8:46 | "There are but two parties now: traitors and patriots. And I want hereafter to be ranked with the latter and, I trust, the stronger party." -- Ulysses S. Grant, 1861 | "You don't get mulligans in insurrection." | "It is long past time to admit the blindingly obvious: the Republican party has been hijacked by fascist extremists. It is now a far-right organization in league with neo-Nazis who have made it painfully clear they want to overthrow democracy and seize power, using violence if necessary." | "I didn't vote to overturn an election, and I will not be lectured by people who did about partisanship." -- Rep. Gerry Connolly

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Cordel One
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Postby Cordel One » Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:27 pm

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
Postauthoritarian America wrote:
NASA was never much more than a conduit for funding for Lockheed, Martin Marietta and the rest of the military-industrial complex that benefitted from the wasteful manned space program. Go visit Canaveral some time, that's who's manning what amounts to the manned space program trade show booths. Which would be acceptible if they were doing science instead of blowing soap bubbles and lighting farts in space for shits and giggles.


Of all the "military-industrial complex" stuff the US spends money on, why would you object to space programs?

You know why they built GPS, don't you?

I do object to the military industrial complex, and while the state would ideally be producing all its own parts at least it's the one sending the rockets into space.
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Northwest Slobovia
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Postby Northwest Slobovia » Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:39 pm

Cordel One wrote:
Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
Of all the "military-industrial complex" stuff the US spends money on, why would you object to space programs?

You know why they built GPS, don't you?

I do object to the military industrial complex, and while the state would ideally be producing all its own parts at least it's the one sending the rockets into space.

Still is. Or do you imagine Musk is sending NASA astronauts to ISS for free?

And, um, you are aware that all of NASA's boosters were built by private companies, and most were designed by them as well? And that private companies have been flying private payloads on said privately built boosters for decades (that is, comm sats)?
Last edited by Northwest Slobovia on Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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San Lumen
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Postby San Lumen » Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:44 pm

Northwest Slobovia wrote:
Cordel One wrote:I do object to the military industrial complex, and while the state would ideally be producing all its own parts at least it's the one sending the rockets into space.

Still is. Or do you imagine Musk is sending NASA astronauts to ISS for free?

And, um, you are aware that all of NASA's boosters were built by private companies, and most were designed by them as well? And that private companies have been flying private payloads on said privately built boosters for decades (that is, comm sats)?

What does this have to do with the topic?

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Northwest Slobovia
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Postby Northwest Slobovia » Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:45 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Northwest Slobovia wrote:Still is. Or do you imagine Musk is sending NASA astronauts to ISS for free?

And, um, you are aware that all of NASA's boosters were built by private companies, and most were designed by them as well? And that private companies have been flying private payloads on said privately built boosters for decades (that is, comm sats)?

What does this have to do with the topic?

About as much as anything else in the thread I was replying to. :P
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Grenartia
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Postby Grenartia » Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:47 pm

And now we as a species are wandering a dark and cluttered room with nothing but a dinky little laser pointer, after our nice little flashlight burned its bulb out.
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Northwest Slobovia
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Postby Northwest Slobovia » Tue Dec 01, 2020 11:07 pm

Grenartia wrote:And now we as a species are wandering a dark and cluttered room with nothing but a dinky little laser pointer, after our nice little flashlight burned its bulb out.

How 'bout some nice IR goggles? Would you believe an IR monocle? It was funded about a year ago, with launch expected in 2025. That's probably gonna be it for replacing Arecibo's NEO finding and tracking capability. Well, other than NEOWISE, which isn't very good at it, but has the advantage that it's in orbit already.
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Grenartia
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Postby Grenartia » Tue Dec 01, 2020 11:13 pm

Northwest Slobovia wrote:
Grenartia wrote:And now we as a species are wandering a dark and cluttered room with nothing but a dinky little laser pointer, after our nice little flashlight burned its bulb out.

How 'bout some nice IR goggles? Would you believe an IR monocle? It was funded about a year ago, with launch expected in 2025. That's probably gonna be it for replacing Arecibo's NEO finding and tracking capability. Well, other than NEOWISE, which isn't very good at it, but has the advantage that it's in orbit already.


I mean, sure IR exists, but there's something to be said for being able to shoot a radar beam in a particular area of the sky, and look at the return to find out about the object. Specifically, you don't have to rely on the sun to do it.
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Adamede
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Postby Adamede » Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:28 am

Postauthoritarian America wrote:
Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
Of all the "military-industrial complex" stuff the US spends money on, why would you object to space programs?

You know why they built GPS, don't you?


I object to human space programs that send our best and brightest to be sacrificed to the vain conceit that there is somewhere other for humanity than Earth. Particularly insofar as their main purpose is to pump up the balance sheets of the military-industrial complex.

Then Earth is humanity’s grave, and there is no purpose for astronomy at all, let alone those “best and brightest”.

And last I checked less peole have died to the space programs, and less money and material wasted and destroyed, than in even in the most minor of wars.

Of all the things to be upset by government waste on, space is one of the most petty.
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Grenartia
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Postby Grenartia » Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:31 am

Adamede wrote:
Postauthoritarian America wrote:
I object to human space programs that send our best and brightest to be sacrificed to the vain conceit that there is somewhere other for humanity than Earth. Particularly insofar as their main purpose is to pump up the balance sheets of the military-industrial complex.

Then Earth is humanity’s grave, and there is no purpose for astronomy at all, let alone those “best and brightest”.

And last I checked less peole have died to the space programs, and less money and material wasted and destroyed, than in even in the most minor of wars.

Of all the things to be upset by government waste on, space is one of the most petty.


And has contributed the most to human advancement.
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Nobel Hobos 2
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Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:05 am

Adamede wrote:
Postauthoritarian America wrote:
I object to human space programs that send our best and brightest to be sacrificed to the vain conceit that there is somewhere other for humanity than Earth. Particularly insofar as their main purpose is to pump up the balance sheets of the military-industrial complex.

Then Earth is humanity’s grave, and there is no purpose for astronomy at all, let alone those “best and brightest”.

And last I checked less peole have died to the space programs, and less money and material wasted and destroyed, than in even in the most minor of wars.

Of all the things to be upset by government waste on, space is one of the most petty.


I agree with your conclusion, but it's worth remembering that space exploration, discovery and commercialization began with military purposes. Blowing the fuck out of people on the other side of the planet.

Since the late 70's, NASA has had to compete for launch services with the USSR, then Russia.

Without lavish military spending driving the technology and cutting the price for civilians -- scientific and commercial alike -- there would be much less science being done in space. Launch price would take up so much of what government is prepared to spend on space science, that the "payload" of science equipment would be far less.

IF there had even been a Hubble space telescope, the expensive and dangerous operation to upgrade it (from near-useless to splendid) would likely never have happened. The public perception that Hubble has discovered pretty much everything about the early Universe and most distant galaxies, would not support the more difficult and expensive James Webb.

Bringing me back to GPS. "Someone would have built it, sooner or later" does not cut it. Russia, and Europe, and China only built their own (inferior) versions of GPS because they had to. It was part of the great arms race which was part of the Cold War. Satellites cannot be kept secret, and their encryption is like any other encryption: giving away vast amounts of encrypted data to an adversary makes it easier and easier over time for the adversary to decode at least some of it. Well you may believe that military encryption is any better than the best civilian encryption, but I don't believe it. Except in times of war, the government cannot buy the best talent available because they will not pay the asking price. The encryption which keeps full accuracy of GPS from the public is no stronger than any other encryption, it's just that lawful commercial players do not need it. Within a metre or so is good enough, for commercial purposes.

GPS is a massive gift, from the "military-industrial complex" to business in general, and to individuals like ourselves. I beg to know your sincere opinion of GPS.
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Adamede
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Postby Adamede » Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:21 am

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
Adamede wrote:Then Earth is humanity’s grave, and there is no purpose for astronomy at all, let alone those “best and brightest”.

And last I checked less peole have died to the space programs, and less money and material wasted and destroyed, than in even in the most minor of wars.

Of all the things to be upset by government waste on, space is one of the most petty.


I agree with your conclusion, but it's worth remembering that space exploration, discovery and commercialization began with military purposes. Blowing the fuck out of people on the other side of the planet.

Since the late 70's, NASA has had to compete for launch services with the USSR, then Russia.

Without lavish military spending driving the technology and cutting the price for civilians -- scientific and commercial alike -- there would be much less science being done in space. Launch price would take up so much of what government is prepared to spend on space science, that the "payload" of science equipment would be far less.

IF there had even been a Hubble space telescope, the expensive and dangerous operation to upgrade it (from near-useless to splendid) would likely never have happened. The public perception that Hubble has discovered pretty much everything about the early Universe and most distant galaxies, would not support the more difficult and expensive James Webb.

Bringing me back to GPS. "Someone would have built it, sooner or later" does not cut it. Russia, and Europe, and China only built their own (inferior) versions of GPS because they had to. It was part of the great arms race which was part of the Cold War. Satellites cannot be kept secret, and their encryption is like any other encryption: giving away vast amounts of encrypted data to an adversary makes it easier and easier over time for the adversary to decode at least some of it. Well you may believe that military encryption is any better than the best civilian encryption, but I don't believe it. Except in times of war, the government cannot buy the best talent available because they will not pay the asking price. The encryption which keeps full accuracy of GPS from the public is no stronger than any other encryption, it's just that lawful commercial players do not need it. Within a metre or so is good enough, for commercial purposes.

GPS is a massive gift, from the "military-industrial complex" to business in general, and to individuals like ourselves. I beg to know your sincere opinion of GPS.

I’m well aware of the military regions of much technological development. Military history is a particular favorite subject of mine. I’m not dissing military technology, I’m dissing the undue crap that space exploration receives from some people. We may not end up living in some Star Trek-esque universe, but that doesn’t mean that our space programs are a fucking waste.

And that includes the insinuation that those who died for exploration where a waste, not becuase they died, but because they died in the course of developing space technology. Those peole chose to be there, to say it’s a waste due purely to the fact it’s tied to space technology is to spit on their legacy that they have to mankind.
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Heloin
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Postby Heloin » Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:22 am

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Postby Grenartia » Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:25 am



Scott Manley is how I first heard about it.

Also, you forgot to mention that he's basically the guy that taught virtually every KSP player how to play.
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Nobel Hobos 2
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Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:28 am



Yet photographs show a big rectangular hole -- roughly the size and shape of the instrument carriage -- plumb in the middle of the dish.

And rents through the aluminium surface, compatible with something very heavy falling on the dish and wrenching its steel sub-structure out of shape.

The simulation is also rather amateurish. What I'd expect from a DJ ...
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Heloin
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Postby Heloin » Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:35 am

Grenartia wrote:


Scott Manley is how I first heard about it.

Also, you forgot to mention that he's basically the guy that taught virtually every KSP player how to play.

It takes an rocket scientist to teach you rocket science. Turns out that shit is hard.

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:


Yet photographs show a big rectangular hole -- roughly the size and shape of the instrument carriage -- plumb in the middle of the dish.

And rents through the aluminium surface, compatible with something very heavy falling on the dish and wrenching its steel sub-structure out of shape.

The simulation is also rather amateurish. What I'd expect from a DJ ...

Terrain deformation and destruction physics are expensive and rarely worth it for such demonstrations.

Also if your curious he does give a very good explanation of the whole incident https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vchDbyIRP44
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Nobel Hobos 2
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Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Wed Dec 02, 2020 3:33 am

Heloin wrote:
Grenartia wrote:
Scott Manley is how I first heard about it.

Also, you forgot to mention that he's basically the guy that taught virtually every KSP player how to play.

It takes an rocket scientist to teach you rocket science. Turns out that shit is hard.

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
Yet photographs show a big rectangular hole -- roughly the size and shape of the instrument carriage -- plumb in the middle of the dish.

And rents through the aluminium surface, compatible with something very heavy falling on the dish and wrenching its steel sub-structure out of shape.

The simulation is also rather amateurish. What I'd expect from a DJ ...

Terrain deformation and destruction physics are expensive and rarely worth it for such demonstrations.


No, that's just laziness. When the terrain rises on most sides, it's entirely inadequate to depict it as all being lower.
Also, not actually showing the dish ...


Also if your curious he does give a very good explanation of the whole incident https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vchDbyIRP44


0:46 "The triangular platform has swung around and smashed into the side of the dish"

OK, I exaggerated when I said it fell "plumb in the middle of the dish". It's inexcusable that I indulged in one of my favourite words "plumb" when that was in no way accurate.

One of the cables broke first (unless it was a controlled demolition), and surely its companion cable from the same tower would have broken next. A basic understanding of physics has it that all the other cables would then be under less stress. None of them would break until gravity had done its work.

"Swung around (... around the axis of the remaining cables) and smashed into the side of the dish"

If it DIDN'T go like that, then it was a controlled demolition. In fact, we should look into why the ancient cables became so weak at just this time. They survived a hurricane after all.
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Postby Telconi » Wed Dec 02, 2020 3:33 am

San Lumen wrote:
La Paz de Los Ricos wrote:It's official. The old girl will be decommissioned and subsequently demolished after it has been deemed too risky for workers to try and repair the damage.

From the NSF (website): https://www.nsf.gov/news/news_summ.jsp?cntn_id=301674

From the NSF (Twitter announcement): https://twitter.com/NSF/status/13294626 ... gr%5Etweet

From Space.com: https://www.space.com/arecibo-observato ... -destroyed

When I made the Arecibo damage thread back in August, initially the damage caused to the dish by the wire seemed to have been fixable. Now, it appears that damage from María and the recent earthquakes has led to the decision being called for the telescope's demolition. The visitor center, to my knowledge, will remain standing, but the dish itself, and the support towers, must come down.

what a tragedy and huge loss to astronomy.


The thing was being decommissioned even before this. It was already obsolete and not worth the money to maintain and repair.
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Nobel Hobos 2
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Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Wed Dec 02, 2020 3:36 am

Telconi wrote:
San Lumen wrote:what a tragedy and huge loss to astronomy.


The thing was being decommissioned even before this. It was already obsolete and not worth the money to maintain and repair.


FAST will be so much better. And wait a few years, there will be a radio telescope that is better by 3 orders of magnitude. The SKA.
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