Should billionaires exist? 「Yes or No」

[Ifreann]

There is no such thing as unskilled labour. The labour that is so-called is undervalued, not actually unskilled.

If a laborer does not have the skills an employer seeks, they are underskilled. If they possesses no qualifications or skills for any job but the most basic or lowest paying one, I’d say they are unskilled because they have no skills that they can market.

Calling those people unskilled is just propaganda to justify paying them a meagre wage, even though, as we have seen during the pandemic, the work they do is essential to society.

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That last line is the most ridiculous thing I've heard today, and one of my friends actually told me vegetable juice is delicious and good for dieting this morning. "Working hard" in school is in itself related to class: wealthier people have more resources to prepare for school and university entrance exams, have access to better schools, and their children even understand more vocabulary at primary school age. How can you raise your children when you're spending 10-12 hours a day working trying to pay the rent? How can your children prepare for school when they may not have heating or cooling, or are wondering if they have enough money to ride the metro to school? How can those children even compete against those from private schools or top public schools with entrance exams?

I don’t know. Surely one can still study hard and work hard in school, independent of home, because classes generally give some time to work on things. Get books from the library, use library computers, etc, to make up for the deficit. Do the work, do the homework. Find something that interests you an excellent in it to offset bad grades in other areas. I loved history and social studies and those A’s tended to offset my poor math grades. I went to a low resource school, but that didn’t mean we had NO resources. Make the most of the resources the school has.

You're justifying the miserable material conditions in which adults suffer on the logic that when they were children they should have overcome the failing of their underfunded schools through hard work. That's fucking ridiculous. Why are you putting so much pressure on children to overcome the barriers society has placed in front of them instead of demanding that society remove those barriers?

[The Emerald Legion]

If the labor is unskilled, why do they deserve more, when they could work harder or better themselves to earn more money? Admittedly, a higher minimum wage would be preferable but then living conditions would also go up in price.
Even so, the product created by the company is still the brainchild of the billionaire and the profits should flow to him because it’s his creation.

There is no such thing as unskilled labour. The labour that is so-called is undervalued, not actually unskilled.

Having done both skilled and unskilled labor, this is nonsense. You can pay any idiot to do unskilled labor. Literally. I once worked with a guy who's brain was so fried on drugs that he literally could not walk in a straight line. He wasn't fired for that.

[Greed and Death]

How about billionaires they have to reinvest a significant portion of the capital they have to keep it. Don't invest, you don't get to keep it. This can be addressed socially through ideas like The Gospel of Wealth or by government interference-- taxes, but there needs to be both social and government interventions to make sure people put their money back into the country. Not doing either creates stagnation. Social pressure works better because there are less loopholes.

Anyone can flip hamburgers. But not anyone can do the job the right way of making an excellent hamburger.

There are a certain percentage of the population which will never work because they are criminal or incapable of working. Thus when you have 3-4% of the population who cannot work, when there is 4% unemployment there is competition for people for jobs.

When you have 6% plus unemployment there ceases being competition for jobs. It is a small difference which can be addressed by creating infrastructure jobs or public works. Public works forces competition in the job market. Wages go up which is good for the economy because people can buy more.

They do reinvest. Almost all of them have all of their money in the stocks. The only billionaires that might just have bank accounts with cash are Mideast oil billionaires.

[The Blaatschapen]

How about billionaires they have to reinvest a significant portion of the capital they have to keep it. Don't invest, you don't get to keep it. This can be addressed socially through ideas like The Gospel of Wealth or by government interference-- taxes, but there needs to be both social and government interventions to make sure people put their money back into the country. Not doing either creates stagnation. Social pressure works better because there are less loopholes.

Anyone can flip hamburgers. But not anyone can do the job the right way of making an excellent hamburger.

There are a certain percentage of the population which will never work because they are criminal or incapable of working. Thus when you have 3-4% of the population who cannot work, when there is 4% unemployment there is competition for people for jobs.

When you have 6% plus unemployment there ceases being competition for jobs. It is a small difference which can be addressed by creating infrastructure jobs or public works. Public works forces competition in the job market. Wages go up which is good for the economy because people can buy more.

They do reinvest. Almost all of them have all of their money in the stocks. The only billionaires that might just have bank accounts with cash are Mideast oil billionaires.

True.

I have a billion, but it's not in a bank account, but in my safe. 1 billion zimbabwean dollars, from a time where this was not worth much

[Ifreann]

There is no such thing as unskilled labour. The labour that is so-called is undervalued, not actually unskilled.

Having done both skilled and unskilled labor, this is nonsense. You can pay any idiot to do unskilled labor. Literally.

That any person can achieve proficiency with a skill does not make it not a skill. Is reading not a skill? And yet here we all are, reading.

I once worked with a guy who's brain was so fried on drugs that he literally could not walk in a straight line. He wasn't fired for that.

Congrats to him on having mastered getting high as fuck and not getting fired, a very useful skill.

[Greed and Death]

Having done both skilled and unskilled labor, this is nonsense. You can pay any idiot to do unskilled labor. Literally.

That any person can achieve proficiency with a skill does not make it not a skill. Is reading not a skill? And yet here we all are, reading.

For the last time Max Berry will not pay you to read the forums.

[The Emerald Legion]

Having done both skilled and unskilled labor, this is nonsense. You can pay any idiot to do unskilled labor. Literally.

That any person can achieve proficiency with a skill does not make it not a skill. Is reading not a skill? And yet here we all are, reading.

I once worked with a guy who's brain was so fried on drugs that he literally could not walk in a straight line. He wasn't fired for that.

Congrats to him on having mastered getting high as fuck and not getting fired, a very useful skill.

He did get fired though, after he crashed a tractor through a storage barn because someone trusted him to drive a tractor for some bizarre as fuck reason.

Also, I wouldn't really call Reading a skill. Anymore then I would call speaking a skill.

[Stylan]

They should not, but they do. The question is then, how do we deal with that?

[Esheaun Stroakuss]

They should not, but they do. The question is then, how do we deal with that?

Your flag offers an answer though I dunno if you think it is the right one.

[Le Slavador]

As title says, should billionaires exist? In our world there are millions suffering from malnutrition and treatable・preventable diseases, people selling their bodies to corporations and work long hours to remain above the poverty line, and many even in developed nations are left homeless and in want. In this terribly unequal world of ours, can existence of billionaires such as Musk, Bezos, and Zuckerberg even be justified? I say no- that the state should not allow their exploitation of other people's labour to enrich themselves with ill-gotten gains any more. I support a progressive tax bracket which taxes any person with income above 10 million US per year at 90%+, and 100% for any income above 100 million, as well as heavy wealth taxes.

So, do you believe billionaires should exist? I look forward to your comments.

My other nation is Sanghyeok

I honestly can't believe some of the replies to this, I understand that all of you are entitled to your opinion and I don't care whether you guys change it or not, but are you guys serious? If a person becomes successful in their lives and makes a lot of money enough to become a billionaire, why should that be a crime? Why should their money be taken away from them, why do they have to donate to the poor or the needy (although that would be the honourable thing to do). The government of the country they live in already taxes them higher than regular citizens. Then there are people who are born into a billionaire family, why should they be prosecuted and have their money taken away because they were lucky? In that sense shouldn't we take away the money of those who win the lottery? I am sorry if I am coming of as a little harsh but I really think that people shouldn't be prosecuted for the success they have in their lives. P.S I am not a billionaire (I wish!).

I guess I agree with this one.

Plain ol' envy is everywhere. Also, main reason I don't like to associate myself with billionaires (as if! LOL) is they have potentially too much power or influence.

[Ifreann]

That any person can achieve proficiency with a skill does not make it not a skill. Is reading not a skill? And yet here we all are, reading.

Congrats to him on having mastered getting high as fuck and not getting fired, a very useful skill.

He did get fired though, after he crashed a tractor through a storage barn because someone trusted him to drive a tractor for some bizarre as fuck reason.

How unfortunate.

Also, I wouldn't really call Reading a skill. Anymore then I would call speaking a skill.

Those are both quite obviously skills, but I suppose that it follows that one would have to contrive a nonsense meaning of the word "skill" so as to justify categorising some workers as unskilled.

[Esheaun Stroakuss]

I don't envy people who work and end up successful. I do however resent anyone who thinks they're hot shit because of mummy and daddy's bank balance, because that is not on the individual.

Also billionaires more often than not cheat the system and go above the law to do whatever they want.

[Cybus1]

He did get fired though, after he crashed a tractor through a storage barn because someone trusted him to drive a tractor for some bizarre as fuck reason.

How unfortunate.

Also, I wouldn't really call Reading a skill. Anymore then I would call speaking a skill.

Those are both quite obviously skills, but I suppose that it follows that one would have to contrive a nonsense meaning of the word "skill" so as to justify categorising some workers as unskilled.

Ok then "marketable skill". Better? Flipping hamburgers is not a marketable skill because anyone can do it, but not everyone is skilled at critical thinking and analysis or say, understanding nuclear physics, and the people who are capable of those things have marketable skills that earn them more pay. because their skills are in demand but in short supply.

[Ifreann]

How unfortunate.


Those are both quite obviously skills, but I suppose that it follows that one would have to contrive a nonsense meaning of the word "skill" so as to justify categorising some workers as unskilled.

Ok then "marketable skill". Better? Flipping hamburgers is not a marketable skill because anyone can do it, but not everyone is skilled at critical thinking and analysis or say, understanding nuclear physics, and the people who are capable of those things have marketable skills that earn them more pay. because their skills are in demand but in short supply.

Which just goes to show that the market is stupid. The people whose labour is essential to the functioning of our society are often paid a pittance, while people who do bullshit jobs get a small fortune, and the people most responsible for the on-going destruction of the environment have more money than they could possibly spend.

[The Emerald Legion]

He did get fired though, after he crashed a tractor through a storage barn because someone trusted him to drive a tractor for some bizarre as fuck reason.

How unfortunate.

Also, I wouldn't really call Reading a skill. Anymore then I would call speaking a skill.

Those are both quite obviously skills, but I suppose that it follows that one would have to contrive a nonsense meaning of the word "skill" so as to justify categorising some workers as unskilled.

It depends on which definition of skill. If you mean any given ability sure. But that's not what it's meant by skilled vs unskilled labor.

Skilled labor should more appropriately be called Expert Labor. You need some Expertise above and beyond the basic skills all citizens have. You can't just grab any 18 year old and throw them into a nuclear engineering job and expect them to do well.

You can however grab any 18 year old and throw them at a job digging ditches.

[Ifreann]

How unfortunate.


Those are both quite obviously skills, but I suppose that it follows that one would have to contrive a nonsense meaning of the word "skill" so as to justify categorising some workers as unskilled.

It depends on which definition of skill. If you mean any given ability sure. But that's not what it's meant by skilled vs unskilled labor.

Skilled labor should more appropriately be called Expert Labor. You need some Expertise above and beyond the basic skills all citizens have. You can't just grab any 18 year old and throw them into a nuclear engineering job and expect them to do well.

You can however grab any 18 year old and throw them at a job digging ditches.

And they will initially struggle, but with practice and possibly guidance they will become more skilled with a shovel. And they'll be paid shit all, even though we need that ditch, and so we pretend that this labour is unskilled to justify that underpayment. Heaven forfend we should recognise that their labour is essential, or they might start demanding better payment and refusing to dig ditches until that payment was forthcoming. Then where would we be? Ditchless. The horror.

[Cybus1]

It depends on which definition of skill. If you mean any given ability sure. But that's not what it's meant by skilled vs unskilled labor.

Skilled labor should more appropriately be called Expert Labor. You need some Expertise above and beyond the basic skills all citizens have. You can't just grab any 18 year old and throw them into a nuclear engineering job and expect them to do well.

You can however grab any 18 year old and throw them at a job digging ditches.

And they will initially struggle, but with practice and possibly guidance they will become more skilled with a shovel. And they'll be paid shit all, even though we need that ditch, and so we pretend that this labour is unskilled to justify that underpayment. Heaven forfend we should recognise that their labour is essential, or they might start demanding better payment and refusing to dig ditches until that payment was forthcoming. Then where would we be? Ditchless. The horror.

But anyone can dig a ditch. Thus, because most people can fulfill that job, they do not receive as much pay as someone with more specialized skills or knowledge, because ditch-digging is something most anyone can do, but engineering requires specialized knowledge. Engineering is just as important as the ditch-digger, if not more so, because they design the infrastructure we all use and depend upon, and they have specialized knowledge, so they are paid more, because while anyone can be a ditch digger, you can't expect an average Joe to succeed at engineering.
If the ditch-digger protests, they can be easily replaced because they, as previously stated, do not have or need to have any special skills. The work is important, but the worker has no special skill to make them especially valuable, since anyone can dig a ditch, and they are paid a wage which reflects this.

[Page]

How unfortunate.


Those are both quite obviously skills, but I suppose that it follows that one would have to contrive a nonsense meaning of the word "skill" so as to justify categorising some workers as unskilled.

It depends on which definition of skill. If you mean any given ability sure. But that's not what it's meant by skilled vs unskilled labor.

Skilled labor should more appropriately be called Expert Labor. You need some Expertise above and beyond the basic skills all citizens have. You can't just grab any 18 year old and throw them into a nuclear engineering job and expect them to do well.

You can however grab any 18 year old and throw them at a job digging ditches.

But the nuclear power plant couldn't be built in the first place without the ditch diggers. Which I think is a very good argument for society to stop considering some kinds of labor more valuable than others.

[The Emerald Legion]

It depends on which definition of skill. If you mean any given ability sure. But that's not what it's meant by skilled vs unskilled labor.

Skilled labor should more appropriately be called Expert Labor. You need some Expertise above and beyond the basic skills all citizens have. You can't just grab any 18 year old and throw them into a nuclear engineering job and expect them to do well.

You can however grab any 18 year old and throw them at a job digging ditches.

And they will initially struggle, but with practice and possibly guidance they will become more skilled with a shovel. And they'll be paid shit all, even though we need that ditch, and so we pretend that this labour is unskilled to justify that underpayment. Heaven forfend we should recognise that their labour is essential, or they might start demanding better payment and refusing to dig ditches until that payment was forthcoming. Then where would we be? Ditchless. The horror.

That's the thing. Their labor in Specific is not essential because you can give anyone a shovel and tell them to dig ditches.

Are you going to spend $1500 dollars on a USB keyboard because certain other, rarer components cost that much?

[Ifreann]

And they will initially struggle, but with practice and possibly guidance they will become more skilled with a shovel. And they'll be paid shit all, even though we need that ditch, and so we pretend that this labour is unskilled to justify that underpayment. Heaven forfend we should recognise that their labour is essential, or they might start demanding better payment and refusing to dig ditches until that payment was forthcoming. Then where would we be? Ditchless. The horror.

But anyone can dig a ditch. Thus, because most people can fulfill that job, they do not receive as much pay as someone with more specialized skills or knowledge, because ditch-digging is something most anyone can do, but engineering requires specialized knowledge. Engineering is just as important as the ditch-digger, if not more so, because they design the infrastructure we all use and depend upon, and they have specialized knowledge, so they are paid more, because while anyone can be a ditch digger, you can't expect an average Joe to succeed at engineering.

Actually I expect that most people could become competent engineers, but that's beside the point. The point is that certain jobs are denigrated as unskilled so as to justify underpaying them, not because they don't involve utilising any skills. Calling certain jobs unskilled is a lie, a lie now so ubiquitous that there probably aren't any people telling it maliciously, almost everyone has fallen for it and now repeats it, sincerely believing it to be true.

[Ifreann]

And they will initially struggle, but with practice and possibly guidance they will become more skilled with a shovel. And they'll be paid shit all, even though we need that ditch, and so we pretend that this labour is unskilled to justify that underpayment. Heaven forfend we should recognise that their labour is essential, or they might start demanding better payment and refusing to dig ditches until that payment was forthcoming. Then where would we be? Ditchless. The horror.

That's the thing. Their labor in Specific is not essential because you can give anyone a shovel and tell them to dig ditches.

And you could teach anyone enough about nuclear engineering to work in a nuclear power plant.

Are you going to spend $1500 dollars on a USB keyboard because certain other, rarer components cost that much?

Probably not. Are you going to tell me that a cheap keyboard is equivalent to literally anything I could plug into a USB port?

[The Blaatschapen]

It depends on which definition of skill. If you mean any given ability sure. But that's not what it's meant by skilled vs unskilled labor.

Skilled labor should more appropriately be called Expert Labor. You need some Expertise above and beyond the basic skills all citizens have. You can't just grab any 18 year old and throw them into a nuclear engineering job and expect them to do well.

You can however grab any 18 year old and throw them at a job digging ditches.

But the nuclear power plant couldn't be built in the first place without the ditch diggers. Which I think is a very good argument for society to stop considering some kinds of labor more valuable than others.

Also, ditches are a traditional suicide spot for genocidal dictators. That is a very important function of ditches.

[The Blaatschapen]

That's the thing. Their labor in Specific is not essential because you can give anyone a shovel and tell them to dig ditches.

And you could teach anyone enough about nuclear engineering to work in a nuclear power plant.

Like homer Simpson

[HIreland]

Skilled labor is worth more than unskilled labor because it requires the investment of a lot of labor to learn the skill, so the higher value of skilled labor is the worker earning back his investment of having learned the skill. If there was no benefit to learning a skill, why would anyone be motivated to do so?

[Shin-Mutsu]

Skilled labor is worth more than unskilled labor because it requires the investment of a lot of labor to learn the skill, so the higher value of skilled labor is the worker earning back his investment of having learned the skill. If there was no benefit to learning a skill, why would anyone be motivated to do so?

And this has to do with billionaires how?