Hungary to Constitutionally Mandate Christian Gender Roles

[Sundiata]

How? You're being asked to use your reason.

Really? What rigorous methodology are you adhering to?

How are you being asked not to use your reason?

[Neanderthaland]

Really? What rigorous methodology are you adhering to?

How are you being asked not to use your reason?

Because you're "looking inside yourself" for what feels true.

I'm not saying that's easy. I've struggled to decide what I want for lunch a lot of days. But it's hardly an airtight measure of objective reality.

[Pantsufaust]

Is this far from true though?

[The Free Joy State]

How are you being asked not to use your reason?

Because you're "looking inside yourself" for what feels true.

I'm not saying that's easy. I've struggled to decide what I want for lunch a lot of days. But it's hardly an airtight measure of objective reality.

Perhaps the objective reality/otherwise of any purpose in life would fit better on its own thread, rather than one about Hungary's constitutional gender roles?

[Neanderthaland]

Is this far from true though?

Well the claim is that the Bible has "divine inspiration."

Going with your gut is not going to answer that question.

[Nakena]

I don't believe Orban comissioned a theological study or expert opinion upon which he would base his consititonal initiative.

Its probably more along the the line of "hurr durr muh christianity, lets put another sign about how small proud hungary is standing once again against the evil globohomo gayplex and George Sorros!"

[Sundiata]

How are you being asked not to use your reason?

Because you're "looking inside yourself" for what feels true.

I'm not saying that's easy. I've struggled to decide what I want for lunch a lot of days. But it's hardly an airtight measure of objective reality.

You've been asked to use reason. You've also been asked to use faith.

[The Free Joy State]

I don't believe Orban comissioned a theological study or expert opinion upon which he would base his consititonal initiative.

Orban's far-right traditionalist nationalist agenda has been visible for sometime. Politicians have called for Jews to be registered on a list. The anti-immigration government has promised no tax to women with four or more children, banned gender studies as "dangerous", and have used EU funding for a governmental anti-abortion campaign (and also allow hospitals to erect more barriers). Hungary also rolled back transgender rights last May (declaring sex and gender immutable).

Under Orban, Hungary is going down a dark -- and somehow familiar -- road.

[Albrenia]

I don't believe Orban comissioned a theological study or expert opinion upon which he would base his consititonal initiative.

Orban's far-right traditionalist nationalist agenda has been visible for sometime. Politicians have called for Jews to be registered on a list. The anti-immigration government has promised no tax to women with four or more children, banned gender studies as "dangerous", and have used EU funding for a governmental anti-abortion campaign (and also allow hospitals to erect more barriers). Hungary also rolled back transgender rights last May (declaring sex and gender immutable).

Under Orban, Hungary is going down a dark -- and somehow familiar -- road.

Why do so many people have it in for the Jews...

If I was a Jew in Hungary I'd be eager to live that hellhole even more than I would as an atheist in Hungary. Scary stuff when they begin making lists of people based on religion.

[Nakena]

Politicians have called for Jews to be registered on a list.

That statement has been made by a member of the Jobbik who is an unironic natsoc party who is currently in the opposition and currently also part of anti-orban coalition that includes liberals and socialists as well. Should that anti-orban coalition win the next elections Jobbik might get a majort place in the government too. Which would be.... interesting to say at least. Supposedly Jobbik has gone moderate though.

The anti-immigration government has promised no tax to women with four or more children,

Theres nothing wrong with this specific policy.

banned gender studies as "dangerous", and have used EU funding for a governmental anti-abortion campaign (and also allow hospitals to erect more barriers). Hungary also rolled back transgender rights last May (declaring sex and gender immutable).

Under Orban, Hungary is going down a dark -- and somehow familiar -- road.

The EU is currently trying to figure out ways how to cut it's funding to Orban's government and his crownies. But they seem to be in no rush over it. This has been going on for around ten years.

[Luminesa]

Divine inspiration requires discernment of the soul. (Why did my autocorrect change that to ‘soup’.) The hard part is that this requires delving into metaphysics. We are looking inside of ourselves in order to understand the will of a Being outside of ourselves. Ultimately, discernment is a matter of prayer, dwelling on the heart of the matter, discussion, reading, and then making a decision. It is one that requires reasoning and a knowledge of what brings peace and what brings evil.

This is like when Muslims say that you can just tell the Koran is true by the beauty of the poetry.

It's simply inviting you to rely not on your reason, but on straight up credulity and wishful thinking.

Not necessarily. Good discernment relies on factual evidence as well. For example: “I have always been drawn to the idea of having a family. I enjoy the thought of marrying someone. I have liked dating in the past. I have looked into monastic life and have been told that marriage might be a better vocation. All signs seem to point to marriage!” All of this requires recognizing your positive attributes, thinking on your past behaviors, thinking on whether or not they have produced joy, and looking forward to what will bring you joy moving into the future.

[Neanderthaland]

Because you're "looking inside yourself" for what feels true.

I'm not saying that's easy. I've struggled to decide what I want for lunch a lot of days. But it's hardly an airtight measure of objective reality.

You've been asked to use reason. You've also been asked to use faith.

Just like with my example of "what do I want for lunch today?" I may use reason in that as well. But it doesn't make my lunch preferences any less of a subjective fact. We're not determining what reality is, we're only evaluating what I want to be true.

Intuition can be a powerful tool. But going with your gut has never been a reliable means to determine what is actually true.

[Sundiata]

You've been asked to use reason. You've also been asked to use faith.

Just like with my example of "what do I want for lunch today?" I may use reason in that as well. But it doesn't make my lunch preferences any less of a subjective fact. We're not determining what reality is, we're only evaluating what I want to be true.

Intuition can be a powerful tool. But going with your gut has never been a reliable means to determine what is actually true.

Belief in God is just as logical as not believing in God. The premises that follow from belief in God are not preferential.

[Brutain]

This is why that rapid expansion to the east was a bad idea to begin with.

First you get used to one another, then you join forces. Just rushing everything through is like a shotgun marriage.

The EU has let a couple of states in that have reacted to the EU membership with far-right voting. (Just like Brexit happened because the far right was the only party advocating against the EU.) Maybe the EU needs to take a look into the mirror and ask why such reactionaries are the only alternative to the current course of the EU?

And as for that expansion: can we please agree that the EU was too greedy to realise that just because it could, didn't mean it should?

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

This is peak anti sjw clowning.

Sad to see the country my ancestors came from fall into such a mess.

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

I love seeing butthurt Westerners fail to force their values on countries.

Don't be an asshole to lgbt people is less an western value and more "dont be a prick".

[Esalia]

I love seeing butthurt Westerners fail to force their values on countries.

I, too, respond to foreign countries doing not-so-good things by mocking the people who care about the people who would be hurt by those not-so-good things.

[Neanderthaland]

Just like with my example of "what do I want for lunch today?" I may use reason in that as well. But it doesn't make my lunch preferences any less of a subjective fact. We're not determining what reality is, we're only evaluating what I want to be true.

Intuition can be a powerful tool. But going with your gut has never been a reliable means to determine what is actually true.

Belief in God is just as logical as not believing in God. The premises that follow from belief in God are not preferential.

You're changing the subject. This is about the Bible being "divinely inspired" not about the existence of a God or gods. And, specifically, about the claim that you can just tell that the Bible is divinely inspired by reading it, and thinking about it a lot.

You cannot. And I know that you cannot, because I've read the Bible, and I've thought about it quite a lot. And far from convincing me that it was divinely inspired, it convinced me quite thoroughly that it is not. Now - putting aside for the moment which one of us is correct - if it's possible to have this broad a difference of opinion on the subject by using the you can just tell metric, then the you can just tell metric is objectively NOT a good measurement of truth.

And if you thought about it at all, you'd know that this is true. Because the Mormons say the same thing about their books. And the Muslims say the same thing about the Koran and the Hadith. And you're not convinced by either of them, are you?

But you are convinced by your own books, which reveals the essential problem: The you can just tell method only encourages people to believe what they want to believe.

[Sundiata]

Belief in God is just as logical as not believing in God. The premises that follow from belief in God are not preferential.

You're changing the subject. This is about the Bible being "divinely inspired" not about the existence of a God or gods. And, specifically, about the claim that you can just tell that the Bible is divinely inspired by reading it, and thinking about it a lot.

You cannot. And I know that you cannot, because I've read the Bible, and I've thought about it quite a lot. And far from convincing me that it was divinely inspired, it convinced me quite thoroughly that it is not. Now - putting aside for the moment which one of us is correct - if it's possible to have this broad a difference of opinion on the subject by using the you can just tell metric, then the you can just tell metric is objectively NOT a good measurement of truth.

And if you thought about it at all, you'd know that this is true. Because the Mormons say the same thing about their books. And the Muslims say the same thing about the Koran and the Hadith. And you're not convinced by either of them, are you?

But you are convinced by your own books, which reveals the essential problem: The you can just tell method only encourages people to believe what they want to believe.

After this, please let's take this to the Christian discussion thread.

I'm not changing the subject. My belief that the bible is divinely inspired follows from my belief in God. You can tell that the bible is divinely inspired through the thorough use of reason and the thorough application of faith. The experience that Abraham had is consistent with reasonable definition of God's nature. Christian tradition and Christian scripture is an adequate metric of determining what is objectively true, especially in theological terms.

Now, before we discuss this matter tangentially. I again, must refer you to the Christian Discussion thread.

[Suriyanakhon]

Pretty much the only way that reactionaries can hold on to power at this point is through meaningless identity posturing and us vs. them culture war narratives. So it isn't surprising that the Hungarian government, like PiS, is trying to pass amendments like this. It's their bread and butter, without it, most people would realize what awful parties they are.

[Novus America]

I don't believe Orban comissioned a theological study or expert opinion upon which he would base his consititonal initiative.

Orban's far-right traditionalist nationalist agenda has been visible for sometime. Politicians have called for Jews to be registered on a list. The anti-immigration government has promised no tax to women with four or more children, banned gender studies as "dangerous", and have used EU funding for a governmental anti-abortion campaign (and also allow hospitals to erect more barriers). Hungary also rolled back transgender rights last May (declaring sex and gender immutable).

Under Orban, Hungary is going down a dark -- and somehow familiar -- road.

Jobbik is not Fidesz. Jobbik is and Fidesz do not get along.

No tax for those with children is a great idea, not a bad one. All western countries should do that.
Sure I would allow it for not just women, and count adoption too, but actually the pro natal policies are the best thing Hungary is doing.
And there is legitimate controversy over abortion.

Sure there are bad things, (like the subject of the thread) But when you lump this altogether it is problematic.

Especially when you make their best thing (support for those with children) out to be bad. That is weird.

[Neanderthaland]

You're changing the subject. This is about the Bible being "divinely inspired" not about the existence of a God or gods. And, specifically, about the claim that you can just tell that the Bible is divinely inspired by reading it, and thinking about it a lot.

You cannot. And I know that you cannot, because I've read the Bible, and I've thought about it quite a lot. And far from convincing me that it was divinely inspired, it convinced me quite thoroughly that it is not. Now - putting aside for the moment which one of us is correct - if it's possible to have this broad a difference of opinion on the subject by using the you can just tell metric, then the you can just tell metric is objectively NOT a good measurement of truth.

And if you thought about it at all, you'd know that this is true. Because the Mormons say the same thing about their books. And the Muslims say the same thing about the Koran and the Hadith. And you're not convinced by either of them, are you?

But you are convinced by your own books, which reveals the essential problem: The you can just tell method only encourages people to believe what they want to believe.

After this, please let's take this to the Christian discussion thread.

I'm not changing the subject. My belief that the bible is divinely inspired follows from my belief in God. You can tell that the bible is divinely inspired through the thorough use of reason and the thorough application of faith. The experience that Abraham had is consistent with reasonable definition of God's nature. Christian tradition and Christian scripture is an adequate metric of determining what is objectively true, especially in theological terms.

Now, before we discuss this matter tangentially. I again, must refer you to the Christian Discussion thread.

I am not going into that hive of scum and villainy.

[Albrenia]

Orban's far-right traditionalist nationalist agenda has been visible for sometime. Politicians have called for Jews to be registered on a list. The anti-immigration government has promised no tax to women with four or more children, banned gender studies as "dangerous", and have used EU funding for a governmental anti-abortion campaign (and also allow hospitals to erect more barriers). Hungary also rolled back transgender rights last May (declaring sex and gender immutable).

Under Orban, Hungary is going down a dark -- and somehow familiar -- road.

Jobbik is not Fidesz. Jobbik is and Fidesz do not get along.

No tax for those with children is a great idea, not a bad one. All western countries should do that.
Sure I would allow it for not just women, and count adoption too, but actually the pro natal policies are the best thing Hungary is doing.
And there is legitimate controversy over abortion.

Sure there are bad things, (like the subject of the thread) But when you lump this altogether it is problematic.

Especially when you make their best thing (support for those with children) out to be bad. That is weird.

No tax for people with children would cut a huge chunk out of the government's tax income. I'm not sure you could keep a country's roads in shape with most of the population having or adopting a kid just to live tax free.

[Novus America]

Jobbik is not Fidesz. Jobbik is and Fidesz do not get along.

No tax for those with children is a great idea, not a bad one. All western countries should do that.
Sure I would allow it for not just women, and count adoption too, but actually the pro natal policies are the best thing Hungary is doing.
And there is legitimate controversy over abortion.

Sure there are bad things, (like the subject of the thread) But when you lump this altogether it is problematic.

Especially when you make their best thing (support for those with children) out to be bad. That is weird.

No tax for people with children would cut a huge chunk out of the government's tax income. I'm not sure you could keep a country's roads in shape with most of the population having or adopting a kid just to live tax free.

Well not just one child, but more than one. But there will be a lot of people with out children, corporate tax, VAT/sales tax, tariffs, land value/property tax etc.

But if people are not having children, then who will pay taxes in the future? All our pensions systems will collapse too, unless we boost our birthrates.

Supporting people who have children is absolutely necessary, and not a bad thing.

[Albrenia]

No tax for people with children would cut a huge chunk out of the government's tax income. I'm not sure you could keep a country's roads in shape with most of the population having or adopting a kid just to live tax free.

Well not just one child, but more than one. But there will be a lot of people with out children, corporate tax, VAT/sales tax, tariffs, land value/property tax etc.

But if people are not having children, then who will pay taxes in the future? All our pensions systems will collapse too, unless we boost our birthrates.

Supporting people who have children is absolutely necessary, and not a bad thing.

I agree that people who have children should be supported, yeah. Just pointing out how 'have a child = no tax' would probably wreck stuff pretty badly.