Hungary to Constitutionally Mandate Christian Gender Roles

[Esheaun Stroakuss]

Man, this is really shit.

[The New California Republic]

We need to make a difference here, these are not the values ​​of Europe, this is the EU/US values , and that is the difference. That's it.

Acting decently towards LGBT people and not being total dicks towards them is a value of Europe.

It is a value of some people in Europe, but not all people obviously or we would not have this thread.

I was more countering the "this is EU/US values" comment.

[The Restored Danelaw]

Why is Hungary part of the EU again? I can see Poland, but Hungary legitimately confuses me.

Because it's in Europe.

So are Georgia, Azerbaijan and approximately all of the non-EU Balkans. That doesn't mean anything.

[Novus America]

It is a value of some people in Europe, but not all people obviously or we would not have this thread.

I was more countering the "this is EU/US values" comment.

I mean true that comment was silly too.

[Salus Maior]

Because it's in Europe.

So are Georgia, Azerbaijan and approximately all of the non-EU Balkans. That doesn't mean anything.

...What counts as Europe these days?

[Senkaku]

Yes, pederasty was a thing, and I do not agree with it. Neither do many contemporary sources of the time, mostly in the Classical Greek period, and especially during the rise of the Roman Republic and Empire. So no, it wasn't like people didn't speak out against the practice.

The modern LGBT movement has made it excessively clear that this is not the intent, and pedophilia is hugely rejected by the LGBT community, despite MAPs' attempts to try and throw themselves into the group. You keep making these statements that you do not believe all homosexuals are pedophiles, but you somehow believe that homosexuality is the societal "gateway drug" to pedophilia? Really?

LGBT people believe in one thing and one thing only: that legal consent for love and sex can be extended across any boundary (racial, ethnic, gender, sex, etc) EXCEPT for species and age. If it's sentient, consciously aware, and of the legal age to declare consent, then I see no problem with it. Stop insinuating that anything from Steven Universe to flagrant priests are the reason why society is experiencing "moral decay."

If I have to make some morals decay in order to marry the person I love, then I don't really care much for your ethical theory in any way whatsoever. God can punish me as he wishes, but I won't worship a god that considers my lifestyle worse than that of someone who beats their wife for speaking out of turn.

Erm LGBT people do not have collective universal beliefs.
They do not believe in one thing, and certainly not one thing only.

Some believe as you do, some do not.

congratulations on making the one observation you could make about literally any demographic group or political community, do you want applause for your insight?

Ironically your stance part of the issue, by making LGBT into a political group with an agenda

"LGBT" by itself is not a fucking noun. And we are not "made" into a political group, we are forged into one by the kind of persecution, marginalization, and discrimination that the Hungarian government is currently engaged in.

(yes what you said is an agenda, whether it is a good or bad one is irrelevant)

No, it's not "irrelevant." The agendas of political groups are relevant to how they should be treated. LGBT people calling for equal rights? Seems legit. White people calling for other races to be purged from the Fatherland? Maybe should be treated a bit more suspiciously!

makes them into a target for people who oppose your general political stances.

Oh, so if we all just collectively shut up and laid down, we wouldn't be a target! This is as close to the political equivalent of "you had it coming for wearing that skirt" as I can think of. You think LGBT people wouldn't be targeted by reactionary bigots like Orban if we just meekly accepted our lots in life a little better and didn't organize within our communities? Brilliant strategy!

LGBT people do not have collective political beliefs, it is a loose grouping

On average, in quite a few countries, they do. We make generalizations about groups of people in most countries, this is never meant to be literally taken as suggesting these groups are hiveminds. What even is the point of your post? Do you think no one knew this until you arrived to inform us?

(the T does not really even fit well as a gender identity is different than a sexual orientation)

Hey, a vaguely transphobic person with a poor grasp on LGBT history or why trans people have historically been considered a similar identity class! Let's listen to what they have to say on the subject, I'm sure it'll be a well-informed take born of a sound understanding of the complicated politics of the relationship between gender expression and identity for LGBT people throughout history.

of many people with many different beliefs.

Again, are we supposed to applaud you for the blinding insight that not every member of a group of people holds the exact same beliefs about everything? Do you think you're contributing new information here?

Both sides are wrong on this.

Well, if there's one thing I know clueless heteros like, it's wandering into conversations that make them uncomfortable to shout "both sides are wrong" in an attempt to just shut the whole debate down so they don't have to critically analyze it!

I think Hungary is going to far here, but I am not surprised.
When we make everything into an all or nothing political battle this is the result.

Well, I'm glad you did the work to come up with an informed take and settle firmly on a position, despite the potential of facing opposition for it. Takes real courage to blunder into something you've taken no time to educate yourself about whatsoever, prevaricate, and settle on "both sides are wrong"!

LGBT is now being treated as a political football, and this is what happens to political footballs. They get kicked.

Again, "LGBT" is not a proper noun, and again, are we just supposed to lie down and take it? The Sudetenland was being treated as a political football too, should Europe have just shrugged and said "both sides, that's what happens" and gone on its merry way?

[The Marlborough]

Because it's in Europe.

So are Georgia, Azerbaijan and approximately all of the non-EU Balkans. That doesn't mean anything.

Other than Azerbaijan, all of those other ones are places the EU has eyes in expanding with. When Hungary joined it was also a very different time and place pretty much everywhere. There was a lot of belief that the best way to deal with all the post-CW chaos was to get countries like Poland, Hungary etc into institutions like the EU and NATO as fast as possible. Viktor Orban himself was also a very, very different man according to people that I know that met him and even knew him well to some extent back then.

[Novus America]

Erm LGBT people do not have collective universal beliefs.
They do not believe in one thing, and certainly not one thing only.

Some believe as you do, some do not.

congratulations on making the one observation you could make about literally any demographic group or political community, do you want applause for your insight?

Ironically your stance part of the issue, by making LGBT into a political group with an agenda

"LGBT" by itself is not a fucking noun. And we are not "made" into a political group, we are forged into one by the kind of persecution, marginalization, and discrimination that the Hungarian government is currently engaged in.

(yes what you said is an agenda, whether it is a good or bad one is irrelevant)

No, it's not "irrelevant." The agendas of political groups are relevant to how they should be treated. LGBT people calling for equal rights? Seems legit. White people calling for other races to be purged from the Fatherland? Maybe should be treated a bit more suspiciously!

makes them into a target for people who oppose your general political stances.

Oh, so if we all just collectively shut up and laid down, we wouldn't be a target! This is as close to the political equivalent of "you had it coming for wearing that skirt" as I can think of. You think LGBT people wouldn't be targeted by reactionary bigots like Orban if we just meekly accepted our lots in life a little better and didn't organize within our communities? Brilliant strategy!

LGBT people do not have collective political beliefs, it is a loose grouping

On average, in quite a few countries, they do. We make generalizations about groups of people in most countries, this is never meant to be literally taken as suggesting these groups are hiveminds. What even is the point of your post? Do you think no one knew this until you arrived to inform us?

(the T does not really even fit well as a gender identity is different than a sexual orientation)

Hey, a vaguely transphobic person with a poor grasp on LGBT history or why trans people have historically been considered a similar identity class! Let's listen to what they have to say on the subject, I'm sure it'll be a well-informed take born of a sound understanding of the complicated politics of the relationship between gender expression and identity for LGBT people throughout history.

of many people with many different beliefs.

Again, are we supposed to applaud you for the blinding insight that not every member of a group of people holds the exact same beliefs about everything? Do you think you're contributing new information here?

Both sides are wrong on this.

Well, if there's one thing I know clueless heteros like, it's wandering into conversations that make them uncomfortable to shout "both sides are wrong" in an attempt to just shut the whole debate down so they don't have to critically analyze it!

I think Hungary is going to far here, but I am not surprised.
When we make everything into an all or nothing political battle this is the result.

Well, I'm glad you did the work to come up with an informed take and settle firmly on a position, despite the potential of facing opposition for it. Takes real courage to blunder into something you've taken no time to educate yourself about whatsoever, prevaricate, and settle on "both sides are wrong"!

LGBT is now being treated as a political football, and this is what happens to political footballs. They get kicked.

Again, "LGBT" is not a proper noun, and again, are we just supposed to lie down and take it? The Sudetenland was being treated as a political football too, should Europe have just shrugged and said "both sides, that's what happens" and gone on its merry way?

I understand why it was grouped together. There is political strength in numbers and sure there were common issues. It is not uncommon for different but related interests, especially when not are disaffected to join.

And I did not say they should not have done what they did. My point that the concept lumps together 3 things with something different is no saying why those things have been lumped together. It certainly makes sense from a political standpoint in many cases, even if it might create issues in others.

Everything with benefits comes with costs.

Based on a cost benefit analysis you can absolutely argue the gains made elsewhere was worth it.
But there will be costs, as you well know.
I never said just sit back and take it, but when you jump into the fight, you get messy. It is often worth it, but we should not be surprised when such a mess occurs.

Actually I support LGBT rights.
I do think we should not legally discriminate against people on sexual orientation or gender identity.
Even if many, on average (obviously not all) align with parties and groups who I have problem with on other things.
For example gun rights. LGBT right groups tend to support candidates and groups that want to take away my gun rights. So there is a problem there. These groups have aligned against my interests for their own interest.

I do not think this makes LGBT people they are a collective group who should be collectively punished for anti gun rights legislation. But sometimes I am force to vote for candidates against LGBT rights as a result.

But obviously in post modern politics many people in Hungary do not think as I do, and are trying to collectively punish LGBT people as a way to fight against a largely political alignment. Or they do as I do, vote for candidates against LGBT rights because they agree with their stance on other things. Nasty stuff.

My point was that he create as a problem by saying LGBT people believe in one thing, and one thing only.
It maybe should be “I believe in this, and this is why it should be implemented”, if you claim to collectively speak for a group it can lead to issues.

When you join with other political groups it creates issues.

We obviously have a broad political divide occurring in Europe. Between the pro EU, internationalist approach, and the populist nationalist approach. Most pro LGBT rights groups aligning with the pro EU side makes sense if the EU is strong enough to help, but if we take the approach “LGBT people believe this”, those who oppose the EU come to view LGBT people as the enemy.
If LGBT rights are an a collective EU value, then those opposed to the EU will often view LGBT rights, and moreover LGBT people with hostility.

Again Hungary is wrong here, they seem to be collectively lumping in LGBT rights with other geopolitical ideas.

Is it right? No. Is it surprising? No.

The difference is you are saying how things should be. I am merely pointing out what they are. I think that is the difference.
I am not happy with what is happening, but it is still happening. Umm with the Sudetenland Europe did just shrug, say both sides, and went on its merry way. Should it have happened? No. But it did.

Also in the nuclear thread I said something stupid. You called me out on it, said “both sides say stupid things” and you were right. By saying that stupid thing I harmed my side. But how is this different?
You are indignant I did the same thing you did.

There are no easy answers here. I do not have the answers to this. The situation here is fucked up. I do not see how to resolve it.

Of course you need to make political alliances, and make political associations, and even try to present a common front. But those come with costs too.

You are saying the benefits are worth the costs.
Which is fine. But we cannot pretend their are no costs either.

[Kungsu]

I'm just going to put this here, for all those who think Hungary is doing a service because you happen to agree with them on their homophobia/transphobia:

"First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."
- Martin Niemöller (1892–1984)

Applicable only to non-Catholic, non-Hungarian, non-Ultra Nationalist Undesirables. Valid only in the Fatherland and its Rightful Claims. Glory to the Hungarians!

[Clarkstan]

I will just say a few words about LGBTQ people, in my opinion they should have all the rights regarding health, employment and education.But I am against and I will always be against same-sex marriage , adoption and propaganda in schools.

Are you expecting us to clamber over each other to thank you for being benevolent enough to spare us the chair and "just" relegate us to the status of second-class citizens?

We need to make a difference here, these are not the values ​​of Europe, this is the EU/US values , and that is the difference. That's it.

I claim that the values of the EU are the values of Europe, since the EU claims to represent Europe politically and has the strongest case of anyone. Who's going to challenge them? Hungary and Poland, two former communist dictatorships whose economies were only saved by the grace of Brussels and Uncle Sam, and whose leaders have turned their backs on the democratic principles they glibly claimed to hold when they wanted help throwing off the communist yoke or becoming good capitalists?

These values ​​of Europe, until 50 years ago were a taboo topic. That says enough that you were imposed as a value. But according to your logic, if the West legalizes pedophilia and zoophilia, then it will become the values ​​of Europe, right? And today it is a criminal act.As for Hungary , before Orban returned to power in 2010, Hungary was under the International Monetary Fund and was in a deep recession.
When Orban arrived, he renounced the IMF, which as the EU proposed a way out of the recession through reduced wages (pure neoliberalism). Instead, he introduced a tax on foreign banks, banned shopping night and banned GMOs. And thus Hungary became a growing economy.Orban is an example of the best European.And your EU showed its face during this pandemic, that is, they promise a lot and do nothing.In the end (globalists will not like it) Hungary and Poland have the right to pursue their policies, whether you Europhilles like it or not.

[The New California Republic]

Are you expecting us to clamber over each other to thank you for being benevolent enough to spare us the chair and "just" relegate us to the status of second-class citizens?

I claim that the values of the EU are the values of Europe, since the EU claims to represent Europe politically and has the strongest case of anyone. Who's going to challenge them? Hungary and Poland, two former communist dictatorships whose economies were only saved by the grace of Brussels and Uncle Sam, and whose leaders have turned their backs on the democratic principles they glibly claimed to hold when they wanted help throwing off the communist yoke or becoming good capitalists?

The latest are the values ​​of Europe, until 50 years ago you were a taboo topic. That says enough that you were imposed as a value. But according to your logic, if the West legalizes pedophilia and zoophilia, then it will become the values ​​of Europe, right?

That's not what he is saying at all. Put down the strawman and back away slowly.

[Senkaku]

Are you expecting us to clamber over each other to thank you for being benevolent enough to spare us the chair and "just" relegate us to the status of second-class citizens?

I claim that the values of the EU are the values of Europe, since the EU claims to represent Europe politically and has the strongest case of anyone. Who's going to challenge them? Hungary and Poland, two former communist dictatorships whose economies were only saved by the grace of Brussels and Uncle Sam, and whose leaders have turned their backs on the democratic principles they glibly claimed to hold when they wanted help throwing off the communist yoke or becoming good capitalists?

The latest are the values ​​of Europe, until 50 years ago you were a taboo topic.

Is that right? I see someone doesn't know their Weimar or Parisian history!

That says enough that you were imposed as a value.

By who?

As for Hungary , before Orban returned to power in 2010, Hungary was under the International Monetary Fund and was in a deep recession.

And it could end up there again if he wants to continue to play the mouse that roared with Berlin and Paris.

When Orban arrived, he renounced the IMF, which as the EU proposed a way out of the recession through reduced wages (pure neoliberalism). Instead, he introduced a tax on foreign banks, banned shopping night and banned GMOs. And thus Hungary became a growing economy.

Yes, I'm sure "banning GMOs" had a ton to do with it.

Orban is an example of the best European.And your EU showed its face during this pandemic, that is, they promise a lot and do nothing.In the end (globalists will not like it) Hungary and Poland have the right to pursue their policies, whether you Europhilles like it or not.

Hungary and Poland should remember they are small, flat countries with few outlets to the sea, who depend on the mercy and forbearance of their more enlightened neighbors to enjoy the benefits of modernity and its attendant prosperity. They can either abide by Europe's rules and live in Europe's house, or they can make an arrangement with Moscow. How did that go for them in '56, pray tell?

[Tarturous]

[Vassenor]

Why is the argument always that legalised homosexuality means that pedophilia and zoophilia needs to be legalised too.

[Clarkstan]

The latest are the values ​​of Europe, until 50 years ago you were a taboo topic. That says enough that you were imposed as a value. But according to your logic, if the West legalizes pedophilia and zoophilia, then it will become the values ​​of Europe, right?

That's not what he is saying at all. Put down the strawman and back away slowly.

And what ?

[The New California Republic]

That's not what he is saying at all. Put down the strawman and back away slowly.

And what ?

Hm? "And what"? Nothing. I'd finished what I was saying.

[Esalia]

Why is the argument always that legalised homosexuality means that pedophilia and zoophilia needs to be legalised too.

The last resort of people with no good argument against homosexuality.

[Novus America]

Are you expecting us to clamber over each other to thank you for being benevolent enough to spare us the chair and "just" relegate us to the status of second-class citizens?

I claim that the values of the EU are the values of Europe, since the EU claims to represent Europe politically and has the strongest case of anyone. Who's going to challenge them? Hungary and Poland, two former communist dictatorships whose economies were only saved by the grace of Brussels and Uncle Sam, and whose leaders have turned their backs on the democratic principles they glibly claimed to hold when they wanted help throwing off the communist yoke or becoming good capitalists?

These values ​​of Europe, until 50 years ago were a taboo topic. That says enough that you were imposed as a value. But according to your logic, if the West legalizes pedophilia and zoophilia, then it will become the values ​​of Europe, right? And today it is a criminal act.As for Hungary , before Orban returned to power in 2010, Hungary was under the International Monetary Fund and was in a deep recession.
When Orban arrived, he renounced the IMF, which as the EU proposed a way out of the recession through reduced wages (pure neoliberalism). Instead, he introduced a tax on foreign banks, banned shopping night and banned GMOs. And thus Hungary became a growing economy.Orban is an example of the best European.And your EU showed its face during this pandemic, that is, they promise a lot and do nothing.In the end (globalists will not like it) Hungary and Poland have the right to pursue their policies, whether you Europhilles like it or not.

Opposing GMO’s in general (rather than the legitimate intellectual property issues involved) is anti science and silly.
But you do have a point. If LGBT rights comes with neoliberalism, people who oppose neoliberalism will oppose LGBT rights.

Here the issue of politics. When you pick a side, you get everything that side supports, the good and the bad.

So if you agree with Orban on opposing EU austerity, you are stuck with supporting the side opposing LGBT rights.
Moreover you might begin to view pro LGBT groups, even LGBT rights people as the enemy, if they tend to support candidates and parties who vote for EU austerity.

It is the ugly nature of politics.

You can only pick one side, and both sides are shitty in some ways, good in others.

[Clarkstan]

The latest are the values ​​of Europe, until 50 years ago you were a taboo topic.

Is that right? I see someone doesn't know their Weimar or Parisian history!

That says enough that you were imposed as a value.

By who?

As for Hungary , before Orban returned to power in 2010, Hungary was under the International Monetary Fund and was in a deep recession.

And it could end up there again if he wants to continue to play the mouse that roared with Berlin and Paris.

When Orban arrived, he renounced the IMF, which as the EU proposed a way out of the recession through reduced wages (pure neoliberalism). Instead, he introduced a tax on foreign banks, banned shopping night and banned GMOs. And thus Hungary became a growing economy.

Yes, I'm sure "banning GMOs" had a ton to do with it.

Orban is an example of the best European.And your EU showed its face during this pandemic, that is, they promise a lot and do nothing.In the end (globalists will not like it) Hungary and Poland have the right to pursue their policies, whether you Europhilles like it or not.

Hungary and Poland should remember they are small, flat countries with few outlets to the sea, who depend on the mercy and forbearance of their more enlightened neighbors to enjoy the benefits of modernity and its attendant prosperity. They can either abide by Europe's rules and live in Europe's house, or they can make an arrangement with Moscow. How did that go for them in '56, pray tell?

Maybe they are small. But that's why I respect hem. Because they don't seem dictated.The people are not seen by size but by dignity and pride. Orban has the same thinking as me and that is the Europe of the nation and not the United States of Europe.Also Poland want it too.

[Novus America]

The latest are the values ​​of Europe, until 50 years ago you were a taboo topic.

Is that right? I see someone doesn't know their Weimar or Parisian history!

That says enough that you were imposed as a value.

By who?

As for Hungary , before Orban returned to power in 2010, Hungary was under the International Monetary Fund and was in a deep recession.

And it could end up there again if he wants to continue to play the mouse that roared with Berlin and Paris.

When Orban arrived, he renounced the IMF, which as the EU proposed a way out of the recession through reduced wages (pure neoliberalism). Instead, he introduced a tax on foreign banks, banned shopping night and banned GMOs. And thus Hungary became a growing economy.

Yes, I'm sure "banning GMOs" had a ton to do with it.

Orban is an example of the best European.And your EU showed its face during this pandemic, that is, they promise a lot and do nothing.In the end (globalists will not like it) Hungary and Poland have the right to pursue their policies, whether you Europhilles like it or not.

Hungary and Poland should remember they are small, flat countries with few outlets to the sea, who depend on the mercy and forbearance of their more enlightened neighbors to enjoy the benefits of modernity and its attendant prosperity. They can either abide by Europe's rules and live in Europe's house, or they can make an arrangement with Moscow. How did that go for them in '56, pray tell?

Umm woah there. Surely you do not see that this attitude “you are a weak inferior country reliant on us, obey, take it or leave it, you are with us or against us” approach is extremely off putting?
Again I think Orban is WRONG on LGBT issues, but if I were Hungarian what would I do?

Both your approaches here are frankly atrocious.

[Neutraligon]

:clap:

*** warned for smiley spam ***

[Farnhamia]

Are you expecting us to clamber over each other to thank you for being benevolent enough to spare us the chair and "just" relegate us to the status of second-class citizens?

I claim that the values of the EU are the values of Europe, since the EU claims to represent Europe politically and has the strongest case of anyone. Who's going to challenge them? Hungary and Poland, two former communist dictatorships whose economies were only saved by the grace of Brussels and Uncle Sam, and whose leaders have turned their backs on the democratic principles they glibly claimed to hold when they wanted help throwing off the communist yoke or becoming good capitalists?

These values ​​of Europe, until 50 years ago were a taboo topic. That says enough that you were imposed as a value. But according to your logic, if the West legalizes pedophilia and zoophilia, then it will become the values ​​of Europe, right? And today it is a criminal act.As for Hungary , before Orban returned to power in 2010, Hungary was under the International Monetary Fund and was in a deep recession.
When Orban arrived, he renounced the IMF, which as the EU proposed a way out of the recession through reduced wages (pure neoliberalism). Instead, he introduced a tax on foreign banks, banned shopping night and banned GMOs. And thus Hungary became a growing economy.Orban is an example of the best European.And your EU showed its face during this pandemic, that is, they promise a lot and do nothing.In the end (globalists will not like it) Hungary and Poland have the right to pursue their policies, whether you Europhilles like it or not.

Equating homosexuals and transgender people with pedophiles and zoophiliacs is trolling. Don't do it. This is an admonishment. Next time it will be a formal warning.

[Senkaku]

Is that right? I see someone doesn't know their Weimar or Parisian history!

By who?

And it could end up there again if he wants to continue to play the mouse that roared with Berlin and Paris.

Yes, I'm sure "banning GMOs" had a ton to do with it.

Hungary and Poland should remember they are small, flat countries with few outlets to the sea, who depend on the mercy and forbearance of their more enlightened neighbors to enjoy the benefits of modernity and its attendant prosperity. They can either abide by Europe's rules and live in Europe's house, or they can make an arrangement with Moscow. How did that go for them in '56, pray tell?

Umm woah there. Surely you do not see that this attitude “you are a weak inferior country reliant on us, obey, take it or leave it, you are with us or against us” approach is extremely off putting?
Again I think Orban is WRONG on LGBT issues, but if I were Hungarian what would I do?

Both your approaches are frankly atrocious.

Maybe the parallel between the attitudes of "LGBT people should thank us for the rights we deign to leave them" and "small countries should thank their big neighbors for the rights they deign to leave them" will get through to someone who has any capacity to read between the lines of what I'm saying instead of just clutching their pearls and reflexively assuming that both sides must be wrong in a debate where LGBT people are asking for anything other than subjugation.

Or maybe not. Why should I really care? I'm not European, I'm American. As far as I'm concerned, their entire continent has been dependent on us for security for close to a century. If we can make change over here, what ground do they have to stand on to oppose us when we hint that they should get with the program over there, especially if the big European powers agree with us? We know Hungary and Poland have historical scars that impede them from going over to Moscow's camp, but they also can't adequately protect themselves if they're left out in the cold by the US and Western Europe. Why should we, or the Germans and French, allow them to continue to be thorns in our side? Aren't you over in the Armenia thread talking about how we're in a multipolar world, where great powers do what they want and small countries will just have to lump it?

[The New California Republic]

Maybe they are small. But that's why I respect hem. Because they don't seem dictated.The people are not seen by size but by dignity and pride.

Except they seem to be cracking down on the latter, so not sure how true your statement is.

[Clarkstan]

Maybe they are small. But that's why I respect hem. Because they don't seem dictated.The people are not seen by size but by dignity and pride.

Except they seem to be cracking down on the latter, so not sure how true your statement is.

Listen, you have the right to think what you want. But obviously our thoughts on the matter are different. So I don't see the problem.