Is voting useless in the US?

[-Ra-]

There's literally 0 proof of that.

It definitely happened. It's been proven.

Sure, Thomas Jefferson had sexual relations with his slave. He is also the author of the Declaration of Independence, one of America's most prolific presidents, and a titan of democratic philosophy, even if he didn't follow through with that philosophy entirely himself. His good outweighs his bad, and by a lot.

[Cordel One]

It definitely happened. It's been proven.

Sure, Thomas Jefferson had sexual relations with his slave. He is also the author of the Declaration of Independence, one of America's most prolific presidents, and a titan of democratic philosophy, even if he didn't follow through with that philosophy entirely himself. His good outweighs his bad, and by a lot.

He was a rapist, a pedophile, and a massive hypocrite. We shouldn't be celebrating him.

[-Ra-]

Sure, Thomas Jefferson had sexual relations with his slave. He is also the author of the Declaration of Independence, one of America's most prolific presidents, and a titan of democratic philosophy, even if he didn't follow through with that philosophy entirely himself. His good outweighs his bad, and by a lot.

He was a rapist, a pedophile, and a massive hypocrite. We shouldn't be celebrating him.

And yet he lived in a time when those things were acceptable. It's unfortunate and he deserves criticism and rebuke for it. That does not mean, however, that the United States should ignore his net positive contribution to the founding of your country and to the proliferation of democratic ideology across the world. His actions there greatly outweigh slavery, which he again thought to be a moral wrong.

[Cordel One]

He was a rapist, a pedophile, and a massive hypocrite. We shouldn't be celebrating him.

And yet he lived in a time when those things were acceptable. It's unfortunate and he deserves criticism and rebuke for it.

Both of these things are true.

That does not mean, however, that the United States should ignore his net positive contribution to the founding of your country and to the proliferation of democratic ideology across the world. His actions there greatly outweigh slavery, which he again thought to be a moral wrong.

I don't want to erase him from the history books, but it would be nice if we stopped glorifying the founders so much and keeping the Jefferson statues up.

[-Ra-]

I don't want to erase him from the history books, but it would be nice if we stopped glorifying the founders so much and keeping the Jefferson statues up.

While I find the God-like status many Americans attribute to their founding fathers to be a bit extreme, there is nothing wrong with celebrating their achievements and the extraordinary influence they had on the country and its people. None of the people you have debated on this point believe the Founders were infallible. They were flawed men, as we all are, who lived and acted according to the standards and behaviours of their time.

[Cordel One]

I don't want to erase him from the history books, but it would be nice if we stopped glorifying the founders so much and keeping the Jefferson statues up.

While I find the God-like status many Americans attribute to their founding fathers to be a bit extreme, there is nothing wrong with celebrating their achievements and the extraordinary influence they had on the country and its people. None of the people you have debated on this point believe the Founders were infallible. They were flawed men, as we all are, who lived and acted according to the standards and behaviours of their time.

I personally do not want to celebrate rapists, pedophiles, and slaveowners who founded a country I don't even like. Lots of people do, though.

[-Ra-]

While I find the God-like status many Americans attribute to their founding fathers to be a bit extreme, there is nothing wrong with celebrating their achievements and the extraordinary influence they had on the country and its people. None of the people you have debated on this point believe the Founders were infallible. They were flawed men, as we all are, who lived and acted according to the standards and behaviours of their time.

I personally do not want to celebrate rapists, pedophiles, and slaveowners who founded a country I don't even like. Lots of people do, though.

Your views are expressed by a rather small subset of your country's population and by an even small subset of historians, who usually have to deal with nuance rather than traffic in historical puritanism. You have the freedom to believe what you do. Ironically, that freedom was bestowed upon you by Washington, Madison and Jefferson. Unfortunately, many people around the world do not enjoy that right, including most citizens of socialist regimes, so I suppose it does well to be a little thankful?

[Cordel One]

I personally do not want to celebrate rapists, pedophiles, and slaveowners who founded a country I don't even like. Lots of people do, though.

Your views are expressed by a rather small subset of your country's population and by an even small subset of historians, who usually have to deal with nuance rather than traffic in historical puritanism. You have the freedom to believe what you do. Ironically, that freedom was bestowed upon you by Washington, Madison and Jefferson. Unfortunately, many people around the world do not enjoy that right, including most citizens of socialist regimes, so I suppose it does well to be a little thankful?

It's safe to say they'd be doing much better if it weren't for US interventionism.

[-Ra-]

Your views are expressed by a rather small subset of your country's population and by an even small subset of historians, who usually have to deal with nuance rather than traffic in historical puritanism. You have the freedom to believe what you do. Ironically, that freedom was bestowed upon you by Washington, Madison and Jefferson. Unfortunately, many people around the world do not enjoy that right, including most citizens of socialist regimes, so I suppose it does well to be a little thankful?

It's safe to say they'd be doing much better if it weren't for US interventionism.

Missing the point entirely lol.

[Cordel One]

It's safe to say they'd be doing much better if it weren't for US interventionism.

Missing the point entirely lol.

I got the point, it just nullifies any feelings of gratitude I might otherwise have.

[-Ra-]

Missing the point entirely lol.

I got the point, it just nullifies any feelings of gratitude I might otherwise have.

Thanklessness and communists. Name a more iconic duo.

IDK I thought I was kinda making a breakthrough. Sorry mate.

[Cordel One]

I got the point, it just nullifies any feelings of gratitude I might otherwise have.

Thanklessness and communists. Name a more iconic duo.

IDK I thought I was kinda making a breakthrough. Sorry mate.

America hasn't managed to remain a superpower for this long becuase it lifts itself up, it just pushes others down. I should feel ashamed of the US, not grateful for it.

[-Ra-]

Thanklessness and communists. Name a more iconic duo.

IDK I thought I was kinda making a breakthrough. Sorry mate.

America hasn't managed to remain a superpower for this long becuase it lifts itself up, it just pushes others down. I should feel ashamed of the US, not grateful for it.

IDK mate America has done a bit of pushing down but its superpower status comes in part because America and Americans have lifted themselves up (also because of geopolitical and geographical convenience). And honestly what is there to be ashamed of? You live in the most prosperous civilisation to have ever existed. Your country has problems, sure, but you are better off than the vast majority of people who live on this Earth.

[Cordel One]

America hasn't managed to remain a superpower for this long becuase it lifts itself up, it just pushes others down. I should feel ashamed of the US, not grateful for it.

IDK mate America has done a bit of pushing down but its superpower status comes in part because America and Americans have lifted themselves up (also because of geopolitical and geographical convenience).

Not so much because of the will of our people, we're no better than anyone else.

And honestly what is there to be ashamed of? You live in the most prosperous civilisation to have ever existed.

I'm not exactly prospering myself and the civilization you speak of is built on the blood of others (carefully hiden away in the third world for my convenience) and the labor of the global proletariat.

Your country has problems, sure, but you are better off than the vast majority of people who live on this Earth.

We're better off as a country because we leech off the vast majority of the people who live on this Earth.

[-Ra-]

Not so much because of the will of our people, we're no better than anyone else.

Nobody was ever saying that America is successful because Americans are inherently better, more industrious people. Can you build an argument without a strawman? The reason Americans are so successful is because they have the widest berth of resources available to them and are generally guided by the right ideas and principles. As a foreigner, for instance, I greatly admire most Americans' optimism and can-do attitude. These things are ingrained in Americans' culture, which values liberalism, individualism and progress. These values along with the resources available to you have made you the most prosperous civilisation on Earth.

I'm not exactly prospering myself and the civilization you speak of is built on the blood of others (carefully hiden away in the third world for my convenience) and the labor of the global proletariat.

Every culture and civilization is borne out of, in a sense, the bloodshed of others. America is not unique in this way. I am willing to bet you live a privileged existence where most everything you want and need is or can be provided to you. Many people in the world do not have that privilege.

We're better off as a country because we leech off the vast majority of the people who live on this Earth.

No you don't, but okay.

[Fahran]

Not so much because of the will of our people, we're no better than anyone else.

Better? It depends on how you mean. Culture and institutions do play some role in determining super power status, ubiquitous behaviors and mannerisms, and enshrining political ideals that certain folks may find palatable. Of course, you have to accommodate material conditions - such as accessible resources, geography, ability to participate in commercial, technological, and ecological exchanges, etc. - into the equation. There really is a lot to unpack when people begin throwing around the word "better." And no one is going to be unbiased in doing so.

We're better off as a country because we leech off the vast majority of the people who live on this Earth.

This is a very, very simplistic analysis of neoliberalism, free trade, and open borders.

[Jedi Council]

If Gerogia is any evidence, no, it is not useless.

[Loben III]

Sure, Thomas Jefferson had sexual relations with his slave. He is also the author of the Declaration of Independence, one of America's most prolific presidents, and a titan of democratic philosophy, even if he didn't follow through with that philosophy entirely himself. His good outweighs his bad, and by a lot.

He was a rapist, a pedophile, and a massive hypocrite. We shouldn't be celebrating him.

Was he

[Jedi Council]

He was a rapist, a pedophile, and a massive hypocrite. We shouldn't be celebrating him.

Was he

Putting Cordel's argument aside, Jefferson's relationship with Sally Hemmings makes it difficult to dispute the fact that the dude was absolutely a predophile and rapist.

His hypocrisy needs not be mentioned; most of the Founding Fathers were.

[San Lumen]

If voting was useless so many people would not have voted in Georgia and therefore held the balance of power in their hands.

[Fahran]

If voting was useless so many people would not have voted in Georgia and therefore held the balance of power in their hands.

Well, it's more a matter of whether voting is useless when it comes to promoting and implementing progressive or socialist policies. At least that was my understanding.

[Sanghyeok]

If voting was useless so many people would not have voted in Georgia and therefore held the balance of power in their hands.

If voting was so useless in the DPRK so many people would not have voted in Pyongyang and therefore held the balance of power in their hands.

[San Lumen]

If voting was useless so many people would not have voted in Georgia and therefore held the balance of power in their hands.

Well, it's more a matter of whether voting is useless when it comes to promoting and implementing progressive or socialist policies. At least that was my understanding.

A 33 year old man whose never held political office is now a us senator. Voting is therefore not useless.

[Cordel One]

If voting was useless so many people would not have voted in Georgia and therefore held the balance of power in their hands.

If voting was so useless in the DPRK so many people would not have voted in Pyongyang and therefore held the balance of power in their hands.

It is the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, after all.

[Sanghyeok]

If voting was so useless in the DPRK so many people would not have voted in Pyongyang and therefore held the balance of power in their hands.

It is the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, after all.

So the National Socialists really were socialists?