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Is voting useless in the US?

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San Lumen
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New York Times Democracy

Postby San Lumen » Sat Jan 09, 2021 6:54 pm

Sanghyeok wrote:
San Lumen wrote:Your not presenting any evidence expect whining about how your preferred candidates don’t always win and sorcery isn’t performed to change things overnight.


Cordel and others have presented more than enough evidence, which you dismissed despite it coming from your favourite source when it bashes your enemies in red. And I'm very well aware sorcery doesn't exist, even if I do wish Sailor Moon existed.

San Lumen wrote:
I have doubts they’ve done anything.


They've probably participated in direct action and education. What have you done besides defending your friends in blue kits by excusing their war crimes, ignoring inaction to combat poverty, and supporting their performative activism?

No they have not presented any direct evidence of their claims.

I’ve done plenty for my community.
Last edited by San Lumen on Sat Jan 09, 2021 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Sanghyeok
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Sanghyeok » Sat Jan 09, 2021 6:54 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Sanghyeok wrote:
Cordel and others have presented more than enough evidence, which you dismissed despite it coming from your favourite source when it bashes your enemies in red. And I'm very well aware sorcery doesn't exist, even if I do wish Sailor Moon existed.



They've probably participated in direct action and education. What have you done besides defending your friends in blue kits by excusing their war crimes, ignoring inaction to combat poverty, and supporting their performative activism?

No they have not presented any direct evidence of their claims.


I thought you loved the New York Times?
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San Lumen
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New York Times Democracy

Postby San Lumen » Sat Jan 09, 2021 6:58 pm

Sanghyeok wrote:
San Lumen wrote:No they have not presented any direct evidence of their claims.


I thought you loved the New York Times?


They aren’t my favorite news source nor did what they present prove their claims.

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Czechostan
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Postby Czechostan » Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:01 pm

The Lone Alliance wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
Because its not. A 33 year old man with no political experience is now a US senator.

And that 33 year old man will accomplish absolutely nothing of value as a US senator with an idea of his own, he will do what he is told by his betters because he has no political experience, you could have replaced that 33 year old man with a cardboard cut out and gotten the same level of competence.

Better yet, a then 70-year-old man with no political experience hated every last establishment politician, ran, and was elected, and he's been doing his darnedest these past four years to set the country back as far back as possible.
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SS Order of Burgundy
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Founded: Jan 09, 2021
Ex-Nation

Postby SS Order of Burgundy » Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:29 pm

We should just get rid of voting everywhere, adopt my ideology, it is pretty based and gamer, we could have world filled with gamer nations.
Last edited by SS Order of Burgundy on Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Cordel One
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Cordel One » Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:09 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Sanghyeok wrote:
Cordel and others have presented more than enough evidence, which you dismissed despite it coming from your favourite source when it bashes your enemies in red. And I'm very well aware sorcery doesn't exist, even if I do wish Sailor Moon existed.



They've probably participated in direct action and education. What have you done besides defending your friends in blue kits by excusing their war crimes, ignoring inaction to combat poverty, and supporting their performative activism?

No they have not presented any direct evidence of their claims.

I’ve done plenty for my community.

I've talked to state representatives (without telling them the full extent of my views), protested stuff, chased our national representative, and participated in a number of community service projects. I don't think I can take quite as much credit as Sanghyeok gave me (though that was really sweet) but to assume I do nothing is ridiculous.
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San Lumen
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New York Times Democracy

Postby San Lumen » Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:10 pm

Cordel One wrote:
San Lumen wrote:No they have not presented any direct evidence of their claims.

I’ve done plenty for my community.

I've talked to state representatives (without telling them the full extent of my views), protested stuff, chased our national representative, and participated in a number of community service projects. I don't think I can take quite as much credit as Sanghyeok gave me (though that was really sweet) but to assume I do nothing is ridiculous.


Well good at least you've done something other than complain. Voting is important too. Those state legislators and your representative got there via an election and you have the power to remove them. There are billions around the world who don't have that right.

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Cordel One
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Cordel One » Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:21 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Cordel One wrote:I've talked to state representatives (without telling them the full extent of my views), protested stuff, chased our national representative, and participated in a number of community service projects. I don't think I can take quite as much credit as Sanghyeok gave me (though that was really sweet) but to assume I do nothing is ridiculous.


Well good at least you've done something other than complain. Voting is important too. Those state legislators and your representative got there via an election and you have the power to remove them. There are billions around the world who don't have that right.

The system's too corrupt to be changed by voting.
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San Lumen
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New York Times Democracy

Postby San Lumen » Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:23 pm

Cordel One wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
Well good at least you've done something other than complain. Voting is important too. Those state legislators and your representative got there via an election and you have the power to remove them. There are billions around the world who don't have that right.

The system's too corrupt to be changed by voting.


Yeah LBJ achieved absolutely nothing, African Americans getting the right to vote led to no changes, mobilizing woman voters did nothing, LGBT people achieved nothing through voting.

Its not going to change if you don't vote.

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Cordel One
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Cordel One » Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:33 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Cordel One wrote:The system's too corrupt to be changed by voting.


Yeah LBJ achieved absolutely nothing, African Americans getting the right to vote led to no changes, mobilizing woman voters did nothing, LGBT people achieved nothing through voting.

Its not going to change if you don't vote.

They got those rights because there were riots and cvil unrest.
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San Montalbano
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Postby San Montalbano » Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:40 pm

Cordel One wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
Yeah LBJ achieved absolutely nothing, African Americans getting the right to vote led to no changes, mobilizing woman voters did nothing, LGBT people achieved nothing through voting.

Its not going to change if you don't vote.

They got those rights because there were riots and cvil unrest.


Are you saying to get what we want we have to riot?
Imperial Social Republic of San Montalbano/ Repubblica Sociale Imperiale di San Montalbano
Government: Fascist State
“Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.”
“We have buried the putrid corpse of liberty”
"We have the duty, not the right, to defend our territories if the state is absent"
“The truth is that men are tired of liberty.”
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San Lumen
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Founded: Jul 02, 2009
New York Times Democracy

Postby San Lumen » Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:42 pm

Cordel One wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
Yeah LBJ achieved absolutely nothing, African Americans getting the right to vote led to no changes, mobilizing woman voters did nothing, LGBT people achieved nothing through voting.

Its not going to change if you don't vote.

They got those rights because there were riots and cvil unrest.

And by the passing of the civil rights act. Women’s suffrage was achieved by protests, referendums and by voting.

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Northwest Slobovia
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Postby Northwest Slobovia » Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:44 pm

Cordel One wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
Yeah LBJ achieved absolutely nothing, African Americans getting the right to vote led to no changes, mobilizing woman voters did nothing, LGBT people achieved nothing through voting.

Its not going to change if you don't vote.

They got those rights because there were riots and cvil unrest.

Time to read up on the civil rights movement:

Between 1955 and 1968, nonviolent mass protests and civil disobedience produced crisis situations and productive dialogues between activists and government authorities. Federal, state, and local governments, businesses, and communities often had to immediately respond to these situations, which highlighted the inequities faced by African Americans across the country. The lynching of Chicago teenager Emmett Till in Mississippi, and the outrage generated by seeing how he had been abused when his mother decided to have an open-casket funeral, galvanized the African-American community nationwide.[2] Forms of protest and/or civil disobedience included boycotts, such as the successful Montgomery bus boycott (1955–56) in Alabama, "sit-ins" such as the Greensboro sit-ins (1960) in North Carolina and successful Nashville sit-ins in Tennessee, mass marches, such as the 1963 Children's Crusade in Birmingham and 1965 Selma to Montgomery marches (1965) in Alabama, and a wide range of other nonviolent activities and resistance.

The Warren Court made a series of landmark rulings against racist discrimination, such as Brown v. Board of Education (1954), Heart of Atlanta Motel, Inc. v. United States (1964), and Loving v. Virginia (1967) which banned segregation in public schools and public accommodations, and struck down all state laws banning interracial marriage.[7][8][9] The rulings also played a crucial role in bringing an end to the segregationist Jim Crow laws prevalent in the Southern states.[10] In the 1960s, moderates in the movement worked with the United States Congress to achieve the passage of several significant pieces of federal legislation that overturned discriminatory laws and practices and authorized oversight and enforcement by the federal government. The Civil Rights Act of 1964,[11] which was upheld by the Supreme Court in Heart of Atlanta Motel, Inc. v. United States (1964), explicitly banned all discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, or national origin in employment practices, ended unequal application of voter registration requirements, and prohibited racial segregation in schools, at the workplace, and in public accommodations. The Voting Rights Act of 1965 restored and protected voting rights for minorities by authorizing federal oversight of registration and elections in areas with historic under-representation of minorities as voters. The Fair Housing Act of 1968 banned discrimination in the sale or rental of housing.

African Americans re-entered politics in the South, and young people across the country were inspired to take action. From 1964 through 1970, a wave of inner-city riots and protests in black communities [that is to say, after most of the laws had been passed or changed] dampened support from the white middle class, but increased support from private foundations.[12] The emergence of the Black Power movement, which lasted from 1965 to 1975, challenged the established black leadership for its cooperative attitude and its constant practice of legalism and non-violence.


And if you scroll down a bit in the Wakipedia article to check the details, you'll see that the Voting Rights Act was passed not because of black rioting, but because of white southern violence against non-violent black protesters.

Sorry, the facts say that democracy works.
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Cordel One
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Postby Cordel One » Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:50 pm

Northwest Slobovia wrote:
Cordel One wrote:They got those rights because there were riots and cvil unrest.

Time to read up on the civil rights movement:

Between 1955 and 1968, nonviolent mass protests and civil disobedience produced crisis situations and productive dialogues between activists and government authorities. Federal, state, and local governments, businesses, and communities often had to immediately respond to these situations, which highlighted the inequities faced by African Americans across the country. The lynching of Chicago teenager Emmett Till in Mississippi, and the outrage generated by seeing how he had been abused when his mother decided to have an open-casket funeral, galvanized the African-American community nationwide.[2] Forms of protest and/or civil disobedience included boycotts, such as the successful Montgomery bus boycott (1955–56) in Alabama, "sit-ins" such as the Greensboro sit-ins (1960) in North Carolina and successful Nashville sit-ins in Tennessee, mass marches, such as the 1963 Children's Crusade in Birmingham and 1965 Selma to Montgomery marches (1965) in Alabama, and a wide range of other nonviolent activities and resistance.

The Warren Court made a series of landmark rulings against racist discrimination, such as Brown v. Board of Education (1954), Heart of Atlanta Motel, Inc. v. United States (1964), and Loving v. Virginia (1967) which banned segregation in public schools and public accommodations, and struck down all state laws banning interracial marriage.[7][8][9] The rulings also played a crucial role in bringing an end to the segregationist Jim Crow laws prevalent in the Southern states.[10] In the 1960s, moderates in the movement worked with the United States Congress to achieve the passage of several significant pieces of federal legislation that overturned discriminatory laws and practices and authorized oversight and enforcement by the federal government. The Civil Rights Act of 1964,[11] which was upheld by the Supreme Court in Heart of Atlanta Motel, Inc. v. United States (1964), explicitly banned all discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, or national origin in employment practices, ended unequal application of voter registration requirements, and prohibited racial segregation in schools, at the workplace, and in public accommodations. The Voting Rights Act of 1965 restored and protected voting rights for minorities by authorizing federal oversight of registration and elections in areas with historic under-representation of minorities as voters. The Fair Housing Act of 1968 banned discrimination in the sale or rental of housing.

African Americans re-entered politics in the South, and young people across the country were inspired to take action. From 1964 through 1970, a wave of inner-city riots and protests in black communities [that is to say, after most of the laws had been passed or changed] dampened support from the white middle class, but increased support from private foundations.[12] The emergence of the Black Power movement, which lasted from 1965 to 1975, challenged the established black leadership for its cooperative attitude and its constant practice of legalism and non-violence.


And if you scroll down a bit in the Wakipedia article to check the details, you'll see that the Voting Rights Act was passed not because of black rioting, but because of white southern violence against non-violent black protesters.

Sorry, the facts say that democracy works.

And you really think the Jim Crow lawmakersturne on their heels because they were upset about the conditions they had supported? I'm not saying it's impossible because I've never been in their heads, but it is extremely unlikely especially when considering things like the FBi King letter. Peaceful protests did expand the civil rights movement, but it was the riots by civil rights activists that had the state scared.

They did dampen support a little from white moderates, but they weren't what got things changed. in King's own words, "I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection."
Last edited by Cordel One on Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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San Montalbano
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Postby San Montalbano » Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:52 pm

Cordel One wrote:
Northwest Slobovia wrote:Time to read up on the civil rights movement:



And if you scroll down a bit in the Wakipedia article to check the details, you'll see that the Voting Rights Act was passed not because of black rioting, but because of white southern violence against non-violent black protesters.

Sorry, the facts say that democracy works.

And you really think the Jim Crow lawmakersturne on their heels because they were upset about the conditions they had supported? I'm not saying it's impossible because I've never been in their heads, but it is extremely unlikely especially when considering things like the FBi King letter. Peaceful protests did expand the civil rights movement, but it was the riots by civil rights activists that had the state scared.


But blm was able to get statues taken down without violence or rioting
Imperial Social Republic of San Montalbano/ Repubblica Sociale Imperiale di San Montalbano
Government: Fascist State
“Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.”
“We have buried the putrid corpse of liberty”
"We have the duty, not the right, to defend our territories if the state is absent"
“The truth is that men are tired of liberty.”
Fascism is the modern states national and natural immune response to unchained capitalism and subversive Marxist ideology.

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Cordel One
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Postby Cordel One » Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:58 pm

San Montalbano wrote:
Cordel One wrote:And you really think the Jim Crow lawmakersturne on their heels because they were upset about the conditions they had supported? I'm not saying it's impossible because I've never been in their heads, but it is extremely unlikely especially when considering things like the FBi King letter. Peaceful protests did expand the civil rights movement, but it was the riots by civil rights activists that had the state scared.


But blm was able to get statues taken down without violence or rioting

The statues are some of those symbolic victories that Malcolm X said would be used as appeasement to avoid actual economic equity and justice. It's good to see them go, but it's not some massive gain.
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Northwest Slobovia
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Postby Northwest Slobovia » Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:59 pm

Cordel One wrote:And you really think the Jim Crow lawmakersturne on their heels because they were upset about the conditions they had supported?

Demonstrably not: federal laws changed state conditions.

Cordel One wrote:Peaceful protests did expand the civil rights movement, but it was the riots by civil rights activists that had the state scared.

Let's see some sources for that claim.

So MLK was premature. Even or especially, great men make mistakes.
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Cybus1
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Postby Cybus1 » Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:29 pm

San Montalbano wrote:
Cordel One wrote:And you really think the Jim Crow lawmakersturne on their heels because they were upset about the conditions they had supported? I'm not saying it's impossible because I've never been in their heads, but it is extremely unlikely especially when considering things like the FBi King letter. Peaceful protests did expand the civil rights movement, but it was the riots by civil rights activists that had the state scared.


But blm was able to get statues taken down without violence or rioting

Several of those statues were taken down by force by mobs.
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San Montalbano
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Postby San Montalbano » Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:01 am

Cybus1 wrote:
San Montalbano wrote:
But blm was able to get statues taken down without violence or rioting

Several of those statues were taken down by force by mobs.


Thats not what the democrat party or msm say :)
Imperial Social Republic of San Montalbano/ Repubblica Sociale Imperiale di San Montalbano
Government: Fascist State
“Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.”
“We have buried the putrid corpse of liberty”
"We have the duty, not the right, to defend our territories if the state is absent"
“The truth is that men are tired of liberty.”
Fascism is the modern states national and natural immune response to unchained capitalism and subversive Marxist ideology.

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Sanghyeok
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Postby Sanghyeok » Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:30 am

San Montalbano wrote:
Cordel One wrote:And you really think the Jim Crow lawmakersturne on their heels because they were upset about the conditions they had supported? I'm not saying it's impossible because I've never been in their heads, but it is extremely unlikely especially when considering things like the FBi King letter. Peaceful protests did expand the civil rights movement, but it was the riots by civil rights activists that had the state scared.


But blm was able to get statues taken down without violence or rioting


As Cordel mentioned, those are not meaningful, systematic changes, merely appeasement.
万国の労働者よ、団結せよ!
大プロレタリアート魔法革命万 統一戦線万歳 どんな時も、その眩しさを覚えていた
Magical socialist paradise headed by an immortal, tea-loving and sometimes childish Chairwoman who happens to be the younger Ōmiya sister

Mini custard puddings
And fresh poured Darjeeling
Strawberry parfait so sweet and appealing,
Little soft plushies and baths in hot springs
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Sanghyeok
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Postby Sanghyeok » Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:32 am

San Lumen wrote:
Cordel One wrote:I've talked to state representatives (without telling them the full extent of my views), protested stuff, chased our national representative, and participated in a number of community service projects. I don't think I can take quite as much credit as Sanghyeok gave me (though that was really sweet) but to assume I do nothing is ridiculous.


Well good at least you've done something other than complain. Voting is important too. Those state legislators and your representative got there via an election and you have the power to remove them. There are billions around the world who don't have that right.


You seem to have misunderstood our argument. The only reason to vote is because the cost is low, but the benefits are low or nonexistent as well.
万国の労働者よ、団結せよ!
大プロレタリアート魔法革命万 統一戦線万歳 どんな時も、その眩しさを覚えていた
Magical socialist paradise headed by an immortal, tea-loving and sometimes childish Chairwoman who happens to be the younger Ōmiya sister

Mini custard puddings
And fresh poured Darjeeling
Strawberry parfait so sweet and appealing,
Little soft plushies and baths in hot springs
These are a few of my favourite things

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Cordel One
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Postby Cordel One » Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:23 pm

Northwest Slobovia wrote:
Cordel One wrote:And you really think the Jim Crow lawmakersturne on their heels because they were upset about the conditions they had supported?

Demonstrably not: federal laws changed state conditions.

Right, because the federal government was completely above racist laws.

Cordel One wrote:Peaceful protests did expand the civil rights movement, but it was the riots by civil rights activists that had the state scared.

Let's see some sources for that claim.

The FBI tried to get MLK to kill himself.

So MLK was premature. Even or especially, great men make mistakes.

No, he was absulutely right.
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Fahran
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Postby Fahran » Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:27 pm

Cordel One wrote:The system's too corrupt to be changed by voting.

Depends on how you want to change it. You can do quite a lot, really.
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Fahran
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Postby Fahran » Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:32 pm

Sanghyeok wrote:As Cordel mentioned, those are not meaningful, systematic changes, merely appeasement.

I mean... police responses to rioting have been far more measured and far less brutish than they would have been in the 1960s or even in the 1990s. In the olden days, the National Guard would have been called out and people would have been battered or arrested en masse to a degree that makes what's happened seem mild. We witnessed bans on no-knock raids in many jurisdictions. We witnessed increased training in many jurisdictions. We witnessed the defunding of departments and increased allocations to other public services in many jurisdictions. And that process began largely independently of the riots. Of course, these are local changes as a rule, not federal ones. BLM has received quite a lot of institutional support even if they're not going to be dictating policy directly because the moderates had more votes.
Last edited by Fahran on Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Esalia
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Postby Esalia » Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:52 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Esalia wrote:
After spending several pages explaining to you why this is a shit suggestion, you still suggest it.


Because its not. A 33 year old man with no political experience is now a US senator.


Aside that one example doesn't break a rule, this 33 year old man with no political experience getting elected didn't magically evaporate all poverty, make every single political ideology palatable to the public, make every person willing to go into politics nor give every single person all the free time and money they need to campaign and feasibly win. The one example of this person completely fails to disprove my reasoning why "go run" is not a workable solution for a lot of people.
Last edited by Esalia on Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Formerly Estanglia. Leftie ready to establish Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space CommunismTM under our Marxist Lord Soros.

Nine times out of ten, someone talking about any non-monolithic group as a homogenous, united entity is using them as a boogeyman.

Yeah: Egalitarianism, equality, pro-choice, social democracy
Meh: Labour, the EU
Nah: Pointless discrimination, authoritarianism, Brexit, Trump, both American parties, the Conservatives
I flop between "optimistic about the future" and "pessimistic about the future" every time I go on NSG.

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