NATION

PASSWORD

Is voting useless in the US?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)
User avatar
Sanghyeok
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5022
Founded: Dec 29, 2016
Democratic Socialists

Is voting useless in the US?

Postby Sanghyeok » Wed Nov 04, 2020 9:43 am

The 2020 US election has so far failed to materialise the changes that were expected. Therefore, I wanted to ask: is voting useless in the US for change and progressivism? Will people finally realise the futility of electoralism there, and begin to use methods of direct action such as general strike and disruption? Or do you still believe that voting isn't useless in their system?

I've argued that voting in the US has been useless for some time due to the broken and outdated electoral system, although I didn't post this yesterday to avoid accusations that I'm a Russian spy/Chinese saboteur/Kim Yo-Jung. I think the only way forward would be direct action such as large scale nonviolent protests and strikes. But that is my opinion, and I want to ask you in the words of comrade Lenin, "what is to be done?"
万国の労働者よ、団結せよ!
大プロレタリアート魔法革命万 統一戦線万歳 どんな時も、その眩しさを覚えていた
Magical socialist paradise headed by an immortal, tea-loving and sometimes childish Chairwoman who happens to be the younger Ōmiya sister

Mini custard puddings
And fresh poured Darjeeling
Strawberry parfait so sweet and appealing,
Little soft plushies and baths in hot springs
These are a few of my favourite things

User avatar
Anatoliyanskiy
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 473
Founded: Jan 19, 2020
Democratic Socialists

Postby Anatoliyanskiy » Wed Nov 04, 2020 9:46 am

currently, yep it definitely is. If you live in a safe state, your presidential candidate has virtually no chance of winning that state, and getting elected. House of Representatives and the Senate uses FPTP, so that is also somewhat pointless. If only the President was decided by the popular vote and PR was used instead.

Oh yay, first post!
Last edited by Anatoliyanskiy on Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
Pro: Environmentalism, Eco-Socialism, Democratic Socialism, Social Democracy,Progressivism, Pro-choice, Pro-LGTBQ+ rights, Immigration, Bernie Sanders,Secularism, Palestine And Israel, Internationalism, Alter-Globalization.
Anti: Conservatism, Traditionalism, Bigotry, TERF movement, Fascism, Stalinism, Totalitarianism, Laissez-faire capitalism, Libertarianism, Bolsonaro, Religious Fundamentalism, Nationalism
We mostly use NS stats. No I don't accept Telegrams.
I'm a Eco-Libertarian Democratic Socialist, or ELDS for short.
Forums that I've posted: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=487988 (dead but useful for info)
Ive been on this site for 1 year. I don't know if this is an accomplishment or just sad.

User avatar
Mandicoria
Senator
 
Posts: 3989
Founded: Sep 10, 2011
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Mandicoria » Wed Nov 04, 2020 9:50 am

Yes it is because it's a ridiculously corrupt system that bottlenecks voters, and also constantly gerrymanders in order to secure the most votes. Then add in the fact you have rampant corporate lobbying, and RIDICULOUS corporate donors for presidential candidates. It's fucked.

Also add in the fact history's really proven that voting isn't what brings most change in the country, or worldwide in general, in the first place.
Last edited by Mandicoria on Wed Nov 04, 2020 9:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
very bitter left wing trash. also a proud SRA member
feel free to telegram, i don't care
What if Humanity was as Important as it thought it was... But it turned out to not be a very good thing.
also i rip off warhammer, DOOM, and halo unapologetically
Highly suggest listening to this when reading anything I post about this nation.
A [1.18] civilization, according to this index.

User avatar
Sanghyeok
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5022
Founded: Dec 29, 2016
Democratic Socialists

Postby Sanghyeok » Wed Nov 04, 2020 9:51 am

Mandicoria wrote:Yes it is because it's a ridiculously corrupt system that bottlenecks voters, and also constantly gerrymanders in order to secure the most votes. Then add in the fact you have rampant corporate lobbying, and RIDICULOUS corporate donors for presidential candidates. It's fucked.

Also add in the fact history's really proven that voting isn't what brings most change in the country, or worldwide in general, in the first place.


Then, in the words of Lenin: "what is to be done?"
万国の労働者よ、団結せよ!
大プロレタリアート魔法革命万 統一戦線万歳 どんな時も、その眩しさを覚えていた
Magical socialist paradise headed by an immortal, tea-loving and sometimes childish Chairwoman who happens to be the younger Ōmiya sister

Mini custard puddings
And fresh poured Darjeeling
Strawberry parfait so sweet and appealing,
Little soft plushies and baths in hot springs
These are a few of my favourite things

User avatar
Plzen
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9806
Founded: Mar 19, 2014
New York Times Democracy

Postby Plzen » Wed Nov 04, 2020 9:52 am

A good number of Americans live in noncompetitive electoral constituencies. For those people voting is useless except as a signalling gesture. Even for those that do live in competitive constituencies, the nature of plurality voting makes it very difficult for any change outside the two-party framework to materialise.

I don’t think, though, that even a fair voting system in which everyone’s votes matter equally would put progressivism seriously back on the table in the United States. Bernie Sanders’ failed 2016 and 2020 Democratic Presidential primary bids have shown us that while the US social-democratic movement is strong, it’s not strong enough to build majority coalitions. Even under a fair voting system, it will probably be centrists - like Kasich on one side or Biden on the other - who end up driving policy as kingmakers between the left and the right.
Last edited by Plzen on Wed Nov 04, 2020 9:53 am, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Alvecia
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 19768
Founded: Aug 17, 2015
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Alvecia » Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:22 am

It seems to me that in most of the "safe" states, the difference tends to be in the realms of several hundred thousand.

It would not surprise me in the slightest if there were several hundred thousand people in those states who don't vote because they believe it to be "safe".
British
Atheist
IT Support
That there is no exception to the rule "There is an exception to every rule" is the exception that proves the rule.
---
Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he'll stop asking you to catch his fish.
That's not happening
That shouldn't be happening
Why is that happening?
That's why it's happening?
How has this ever worked?

User avatar
Nuroblav
Minister
 
Posts: 2358
Founded: Nov 13, 2019
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Nuroblav » Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:34 am

Only really in swing states - as I see things from an onlooker's perspective - really matter somewhat. Otherwise, you could vote for anyone from Kanye to Hawkins and I doubt it would make a difference.
Your NS mutualist(?), individualist, metalhead and all-round...err...human. TG if you have any questions about my political or musical views.

Economic Left/Right: -4.75, Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -9.03

\m/ METAL IS BASED \m/

User avatar
Woldoina
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 45
Founded: Sep 30, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Woldoina » Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:36 am

PLEASE WE NEED TERM LIMITS IN THE SENTATE!

User avatar
Feyrisshire
Envoy
 
Posts: 245
Founded: Nov 27, 2019
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Feyrisshire » Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:38 am

Yes, voting is useless. You're just voting at what representative of the elite they now want you to oppress with.
Unironically supports ☭FULLY AUTOMATED LUXURY GAY ANIME CATGIRL COMMUNISM☭
Pronouns: She/Her | Weeaboo? Self-proclaimed Sovietboo ☭ | See also Danschien Ryeifinsshire, Feyrisshire's PT version
Currently TCB Ministress of WA Affairs
Froggy News| Princess Reishi Yuri on Myanmar coup: "No comment"| Feyrisshire COVID-19 Vaccine "Furrycures" finishes Phase III Clinical Trials, faerie catgirl receives injection| Feyris New Year ends peacefully, 19 accidental neighborhood fires reported from firecrackers| Princess Reishi Yuri reportedly still disappointed at Trump defeat|
Chocolate strawberry parfaits given to people with amazing F7 responses (since 19/7/2020): 76

User avatar
Senkaku
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 20826
Founded: Sep 01, 2012
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Senkaku » Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:38 am

Sanghyeok wrote:
Mandicoria wrote:Yes it is because it's a ridiculously corrupt system that bottlenecks voters, and also constantly gerrymanders in order to secure the most votes. Then add in the fact you have rampant corporate lobbying, and RIDICULOUS corporate donors for presidential candidates. It's fucked.

Also add in the fact history's really proven that voting isn't what brings most change in the country, or worldwide in general, in the first place.


Then, in the words of Lenin: "what is to be done?"

Eventually, if electoralism can't produce political changes, people will go from the ballot to the bullet. Let's hope it doesn't get to that.
haters will see you growing on a finite planet and say you can't grow infinitely

User avatar
Feyrisshire
Envoy
 
Posts: 245
Founded: Nov 27, 2019
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Feyrisshire » Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:40 am

Sanghyeok wrote:
Then, in the words of Lenin: "what is to be done?"


What is to be done is exactly what he did.
Unironically supports ☭FULLY AUTOMATED LUXURY GAY ANIME CATGIRL COMMUNISM☭
Pronouns: She/Her | Weeaboo? Self-proclaimed Sovietboo ☭ | See also Danschien Ryeifinsshire, Feyrisshire's PT version
Currently TCB Ministress of WA Affairs
Froggy News| Princess Reishi Yuri on Myanmar coup: "No comment"| Feyrisshire COVID-19 Vaccine "Furrycures" finishes Phase III Clinical Trials, faerie catgirl receives injection| Feyris New Year ends peacefully, 19 accidental neighborhood fires reported from firecrackers| Princess Reishi Yuri reportedly still disappointed at Trump defeat|
Chocolate strawberry parfaits given to people with amazing F7 responses (since 19/7/2020): 76

User avatar
Sanghyeok
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5022
Founded: Dec 29, 2016
Democratic Socialists

Postby Sanghyeok » Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:40 am

Feyrisshire wrote:
Sanghyeok wrote:
Then, in the words of Lenin: "what is to be done?"


What is to be done is exactly what he did.

....I don't see that happening in the US anytime soon.
万国の労働者よ、団結せよ!
大プロレタリアート魔法革命万 統一戦線万歳 どんな時も、その眩しさを覚えていた
Magical socialist paradise headed by an immortal, tea-loving and sometimes childish Chairwoman who happens to be the younger Ōmiya sister

Mini custard puddings
And fresh poured Darjeeling
Strawberry parfait so sweet and appealing,
Little soft plushies and baths in hot springs
These are a few of my favourite things

User avatar
New Jewlan
Attaché
 
Posts: 86
Founded: Aug 03, 2019
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby New Jewlan » Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:44 am

Yes, especially if for old men with dementia (in my NS world, Creepy Joe shines my shoes), or if voting by mail ballot. :p

That, and what with Joey being a glove puppet for the Chinese, we might as well roll out the red carpet for Winnie / Xi Jinping; GL USA!

JK :rofl:
Do not click this spoiler!
Pro: Catholicism, Israel, Pro-Life, Nuclear Family, Black Humour, Cultural appropriation, Reggae, Foreign Films, Languages, Conservativism, History of English, Blondes, Bob Ross, Film History, Obscure Wiki pages, Black Ops 1, 90s DNB, TV, Alternative moon landing hypothesis, Surreal Films, Young Earth Creationism, Globe-earth theory, Flat-earth theory, Non-Blondes, British Soap Operas, Govt., Military, Free Speech

Anti: False Religions, Globalism, Communism, Govt., Military, Wrongthink, "Social" Media, Mobile gaming, Feminism, Racism, Terrorism, Climate Alarmism, The Enlightenment, Big Bang, Evolution, Atomisation of Society, Modernism, NASA, Revisionism, Americanisms, Nazism, Anti-Semitism, Revolution, Big Tech, ACAB, Anthropogenic CLIEmate Change

User avatar
Feyrisshire
Envoy
 
Posts: 245
Founded: Nov 27, 2019
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Feyrisshire » Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:45 am

Sanghyeok wrote:....I don't see that happening in the US anytime soon.


Well, who knows.... A lot of things have happened in the last years, and things would change in the years to come...
Unironically supports ☭FULLY AUTOMATED LUXURY GAY ANIME CATGIRL COMMUNISM☭
Pronouns: She/Her | Weeaboo? Self-proclaimed Sovietboo ☭ | See also Danschien Ryeifinsshire, Feyrisshire's PT version
Currently TCB Ministress of WA Affairs
Froggy News| Princess Reishi Yuri on Myanmar coup: "No comment"| Feyrisshire COVID-19 Vaccine "Furrycures" finishes Phase III Clinical Trials, faerie catgirl receives injection| Feyris New Year ends peacefully, 19 accidental neighborhood fires reported from firecrackers| Princess Reishi Yuri reportedly still disappointed at Trump defeat|
Chocolate strawberry parfaits given to people with amazing F7 responses (since 19/7/2020): 76

User avatar
Cordel One
Senator
 
Posts: 4523
Founded: Aug 06, 2020
Democratic Socialists

Postby Cordel One » Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:45 am

It absolutely is. I guess there's no reason not to vote, but it does nothing beyond deciding which corrupt face the boot has. At the end of the day the United States is still a poorly disguised oligarchy, and no one wins but the elite.

On top of that, we have the EC which makes it even more useless.
Last edited by Cordel One on Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
Leftie and brunch interrupter
Pro: leftism, the Paris Commune, neozapatism. communism, anarchism, Marxism, antifascism, choice, the environment, LGBTQ rights, minority rights, direct democracy, universal healthcare, open borders, labor unions, debating, my comrades

Anti: bourgeoisie, rightism, fascism, capitalism, liberalism, racism, sexism, xenophobia, the police, military industrial complex, imperialism, USA, PRC, overused talking points
Open to TGs - Please join my region the DankLeft Commune!

User avatar
Western Theram
Envoy
 
Posts: 212
Founded: Aug 05, 2020
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Western Theram » Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:46 am

no, though the electoral system is outdated and is frankly is undemocratic voting is not useless, think of how much effort goes into voter suppression, why would they bother stopping people from voting if their vote doesn't count?
The Allied Communes of The Black Savanna
Ⓐ//Ⓔ
Post-Modern Tech
Mutualism
Member of LITA and GSDP


✰ Free Market, Anti-Capitalist ✰

"The motto tells me that they are pretty receptive to Anarchist ideals and wouldn't think twice about kneecapping government officials." -Upper Stuffari

User avatar
Feyrisshire
Envoy
 
Posts: 245
Founded: Nov 27, 2019
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Feyrisshire » Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:46 am

Cordel One wrote:It absolutely is. I guess there's no reason not to vote, but it does nothing beyond deciding which corrupt face the boot has. At the end of the day the United States is still a poorly disguised oligarchy, and no one wins but the elite.


Well, one reason that voting can be interpreted as a political gesture no matter what effect it would be on the results is that it lends an acceptance of the legitimacy of the current political system.
Unironically supports ☭FULLY AUTOMATED LUXURY GAY ANIME CATGIRL COMMUNISM☭
Pronouns: She/Her | Weeaboo? Self-proclaimed Sovietboo ☭ | See also Danschien Ryeifinsshire, Feyrisshire's PT version
Currently TCB Ministress of WA Affairs
Froggy News| Princess Reishi Yuri on Myanmar coup: "No comment"| Feyrisshire COVID-19 Vaccine "Furrycures" finishes Phase III Clinical Trials, faerie catgirl receives injection| Feyris New Year ends peacefully, 19 accidental neighborhood fires reported from firecrackers| Princess Reishi Yuri reportedly still disappointed at Trump defeat|
Chocolate strawberry parfaits given to people with amazing F7 responses (since 19/7/2020): 76

User avatar
Cannot think of a name
Post Czar
 
Posts: 34533
Founded: Antiquity
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cannot think of a name » Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:48 am

Sanghyeok wrote:The 2020 US election has so far failed to materialise the changes that were expected.

Literally still counting the vote.

I submit that 'voting' is not the problem but this kind of bizarre expectation.
"...I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season." -MLK Jr.

User avatar
Sanghyeok
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5022
Founded: Dec 29, 2016
Democratic Socialists

Postby Sanghyeok » Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:48 am

Feyrisshire wrote:
Sanghyeok wrote:....I don't see that happening in the US anytime soon.


Well, who knows.... A lot of things have happened in the last years, and things would change in the years to come...


Do you think the US will have a "decades in moments" event this year?
万国の労働者よ、団結せよ!
大プロレタリアート魔法革命万 統一戦線万歳 どんな時も、その眩しさを覚えていた
Magical socialist paradise headed by an immortal, tea-loving and sometimes childish Chairwoman who happens to be the younger Ōmiya sister

Mini custard puddings
And fresh poured Darjeeling
Strawberry parfait so sweet and appealing,
Little soft plushies and baths in hot springs
These are a few of my favourite things

User avatar
The Gold Mines
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 170
Founded: Dec 13, 2019
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Gold Mines » Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:49 am

I always wondered the point of the electoral college

User avatar
Feyrisshire
Envoy
 
Posts: 245
Founded: Nov 27, 2019
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Feyrisshire » Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:50 am

Sanghyeok wrote:
Feyrisshire wrote:
Well, who knows.... A lot of things have happened in the last years, and things would change in the years to come...


Do you think the US will have a "decades in moments" event this year?


We already had in the past years.
Unironically supports ☭FULLY AUTOMATED LUXURY GAY ANIME CATGIRL COMMUNISM☭
Pronouns: She/Her | Weeaboo? Self-proclaimed Sovietboo ☭ | See also Danschien Ryeifinsshire, Feyrisshire's PT version
Currently TCB Ministress of WA Affairs
Froggy News| Princess Reishi Yuri on Myanmar coup: "No comment"| Feyrisshire COVID-19 Vaccine "Furrycures" finishes Phase III Clinical Trials, faerie catgirl receives injection| Feyris New Year ends peacefully, 19 accidental neighborhood fires reported from firecrackers| Princess Reishi Yuri reportedly still disappointed at Trump defeat|
Chocolate strawberry parfaits given to people with amazing F7 responses (since 19/7/2020): 76

User avatar
Esalia
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1396
Founded: Oct 22, 2020
Democratic Socialists

Postby Esalia » Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:50 am

In safe states/electoral divisions, pretty much.

In competitive states/electoral divisions, not really.
Formerly Estanglia. Leftie ready to establish Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space CommunismTM under our Marxist Lord Soros.

Nine times out of ten, someone talking about any non-monolithic group as a homogenous, united entity is using them as a boogeyman.

Yeah: Egalitarianism, equality, pro-choice, social democracy
Meh: Labour, the EU
Nah: Pointless discrimination, authoritarianism, Brexit, Trump, both American parties, the Conservatives
I flop between "optimistic about the future" and "pessimistic about the future" every time I go on NSG.

User avatar
Sanghyeok
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5022
Founded: Dec 29, 2016
Democratic Socialists

Postby Sanghyeok » Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:53 am

Feyrisshire wrote:
Sanghyeok wrote:
Do you think the US will have a "decades in moments" event this year?


We already had in the past years.


But none of them have led to the results- systematic changes- that we were hoping for. Only small concessions here and there were given to us.
万国の労働者よ、団結せよ!
大プロレタリアート魔法革命万 統一戦線万歳 どんな時も、その眩しさを覚えていた
Magical socialist paradise headed by an immortal, tea-loving and sometimes childish Chairwoman who happens to be the younger Ōmiya sister

Mini custard puddings
And fresh poured Darjeeling
Strawberry parfait so sweet and appealing,
Little soft plushies and baths in hot springs
These are a few of my favourite things

User avatar
Petrolheadia
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11390
Founded: May 02, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Petrolheadia » Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:56 am

Sanghyeok wrote:The 2020 US election has so far failed to materialise the changes that were expected. Therefore, I wanted to ask: is voting useless in the US for change and progressivism? Will people finally realise the futility of electoralism there, and begin to use methods of direct action such as general strike and disruption? Or do you still believe that voting isn't useless in their system?

I've argued that voting in the US has been useless for some time due to the broken and outdated electoral system, although I didn't post this yesterday to avoid accusations that I'm a Russian spy/Chinese saboteur/Kim Yo-Jung. I think the only way forward would be direct action such as large scale nonviolent protests and strikes. But that is my opinion, and I want to ask you in the words of comrade Lenin, "what is to be done?"

Failed to materialise the changes expected... by whom, exactly?

Biden won the Dem nomination because he had the most votes, and now he'll likely win the country while having the most votes. Seems like the changes expected by the majority will happen.
Capitalism, single-payer healthcare, pro-choice, LGBT rights, progressive personal taxation, low corporate tax, pro-business law, welfare for those in need.
Nazism, edgism, dogmatic statements, most of Abrahamic-derived morality (esp. as law), welfare for those not in need.
We are not Albania and I am not Albanian, FFS!
Male, gearhead, classic rock fan, gamer, agnostic.
Not sure if left-libertarian, ex-libertarian or without a damn clue.
Where you can talk about cars!
"They're always saying I'm a Capitalist pig. I suppose I am, but, ah...it ah...it's good for my drumming, I think." - Keith Moon,
If a Porsche owner treats it like a bicycle, he's a gentleman. And if he prays to it, he's simply a moron. - Jan Nowicki.

User avatar
Feyrisshire
Envoy
 
Posts: 245
Founded: Nov 27, 2019
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Feyrisshire » Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:57 am

Sanghyeok wrote:
Feyrisshire wrote:
We already had in the past years.


But none of them have led to the results- systematic changes- that we were hoping for. Only small concessions here and there were given to us.


Well changes don't happen in a day.

Plus we're not really sure what would happen either next, but for example the Trump Presidency is a nadir moment plus the intensity of the George Floyd protests and struggles and CHAZ were not really seen before (maybe except the isolated 1992 Los Angeles riots) but it's also naive to assume that the current state of things will go forever
Unironically supports ☭FULLY AUTOMATED LUXURY GAY ANIME CATGIRL COMMUNISM☭
Pronouns: She/Her | Weeaboo? Self-proclaimed Sovietboo ☭ | See also Danschien Ryeifinsshire, Feyrisshire's PT version
Currently TCB Ministress of WA Affairs
Froggy News| Princess Reishi Yuri on Myanmar coup: "No comment"| Feyrisshire COVID-19 Vaccine "Furrycures" finishes Phase III Clinical Trials, faerie catgirl receives injection| Feyris New Year ends peacefully, 19 accidental neighborhood fires reported from firecrackers| Princess Reishi Yuri reportedly still disappointed at Trump defeat|
Chocolate strawberry parfaits given to people with amazing F7 responses (since 19/7/2020): 76

Next

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: AOKI OS, Borderlands of Rojava, Cakasia, Conklandi, Escalia, Galloism, Gravlen, Gressemphe, Grinning Dragon, Kilobugya, Kowani, Libitina Jezebel Bartley-Wolff, Mzeusia, New Jewlan, Northern Socialist Council Republics, Philjia, SD_Film Artists, Senkaku, Silvedania, The Chuck, Vassenor

Advertisement

Remove ads