NATION

PASSWORD

To Act or Not

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Do you order an invasion of a neighboring country to prevent the continued genocide of your people?

Yes; I will try to appeal to the international community or my leaders, but if that fails I will immediately order my troops to march and stop the madness.
14
31%
Yes; Not only will I invade and end this depravity, but I'll make sure my so-called "leaders" are punished for their inaction.
21
47%
No; I've been given a direct order not to intervene and I'll obey that order, but I'll still try to get my leaders to reconsider or appeal to a sympathetic foreign power.
4
9%
No; It's none of my business and I won't risk my rank for this.
3
7%
Other (Explain)
1
2%
I don't need to. Hasselhoff will save the day, as always.
2
4%
 
Total votes : 45

User avatar
Trollzyn the Infinite
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5496
Founded: Aug 22, 2018
Ex-Nation

To Act or Not

Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Thu Oct 29, 2020 2:59 pm

You are a general in your nation's Armed Forces. A smaller, weaker neighboring nation is currently ruled by a tyrannical dictator who despises your people. He has rounded up all of your people that reside in his nation and has begun to exterminating them. Despite the brutality of this violence, the international community does nothing. Their attentions are focused elsewhere and don't particularly care that millions of your people are being exterminated in a neighboring country. Even your own government seems disinterested in doing anything--it's corrupt politicians offering vague condemnations while being more interested in robbing your country blind instead of stopping the destruction of their own people.

The soldiers under your command disagree vehemently. They are up in arms and are pressuring you to order an intervention without official sanction. Your troops have vowed to follow you all the way through if you do. The forces under your command are more than enough to smash your neighbor's entire army. Your troops are better equipped, better trained, and have cutting-edge tech compared to your neighbors who are using antiquated equipment and are largely filled with poorly-trained conscripts. Several of your fellow generals have requested permission to intervene and stop the massacre, but all have been denied. Your government seems content to sit on it's hands as your people are butchered.

You have the power to stop this, but it requires disobeying direct orders not to do so. You risk court-martial at best and starting a coup/civil at worst. But doing nothing means your people over the border could be exterminated. No one else wishes to stop the bloodshed. Do you? What will you do? Will you risk your job--the stability or your country--in order to save the lives of your people? Or will you, too, turn a blind eye to the plight of millions of innocents?
☆ American Patriot ☆ Civic Nationalist ☆ Rocker & Metalhead ☆ Heretical Christian ☆
"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right."

Reminder that Donald J. Trump is officially a traitor to the United States of America as of January 6th, 2021
The Paradox of Tolerance
永远不会忘记1989年6月4日天安门广场大屠杀
Ես Արցախի կողքին եմ
Wanted Fugitive of the Chinese Communist Party
Unapologetic stan for Lana Beniko - #1 Sith Waifu

User avatar
Mzeusia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 664
Founded: Oct 30, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Mzeusia » Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:03 pm

I'd save the people. If anyone has any sense, they'll celebrate the intervention as the heroic action it would be. Besides, one person, me, potentially out of a job is more than acceptable if millions live as a result of my action.
Last edited by Mzeusia on Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
If you are interested in having the Mzeusian Library write something for your nation, click here!

Pro: volone is an Italian cheese made from cow's milk.
Anti: gua is one of the 2 major islands that make up the Caribbean nation of Antigua and Barbuda. I wonder what the other island is?

User avatar
Nanatsu no Tsuki
Post-Apocalypse Survivor
 
Posts: 203836
Founded: Feb 10, 2008
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:05 pm

I think I’d violate my superiors’ orders and invade un-sanctioned.
Slava Ukraini
Also: THERNSY!!
Your story isn't over;֍Help save transgender people's lives֍Help for feral cats
Cat with internet access||Supposedly heartless, & a d*ck.||Is maith an t-earra an tsíocháin.||No TGs
RIP: Dyakovo & Ashmoria

User avatar
Nihon no Tengoku
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 41
Founded: Sep 10, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Nihon no Tengoku » Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:09 pm

With all due respect, you've essentially written a scenario in which no reasonable person would say "no, I won't stop the genocide of millions of people."

User avatar
Plzen
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9805
Founded: Mar 19, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Plzen » Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:10 pm

Both sides of the argument are compelling to me, and I don’t think I can make a conclusive decision. This is one of those situations where I don’t think I can decide what to do until I’m actually in that situation and I have to make a decision.

User avatar
The New California Republic
Post Czar
 
Posts: 35483
Founded: Jun 06, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:12 pm

It depends what sort of government was in my own nation. If it was a dictatorship etc then a military coup could fix this, and then there could be an invasion of the genocidal nation with official sanction since I'd be the leader.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

User avatar
The Two Jerseys
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 20971
Founded: Jun 07, 2012
Father Knows Best State

Postby The Two Jerseys » Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:21 pm

Sounds like a good time to pull a Franco.
"The Duke of Texas" is too formal for regular use. Just call me "Your Grace".
"If I would like to watch goodness, sanity, God and logic being fucked I would watch Japanese porn." -Nightkill the Emperor
"This thread makes me wish I was a moron so that I wouldn't have to comprehend how stupid the topic is." -The Empire of Pretantia
Head of State: HM King Louis
Head of Government: The Rt. Hon. James O'Dell MP, Prime Minister
Ambassador to the World Assembly: HE Sir John Ross "J.R." Ewing II, Bt.
Join Excalibur Squadron. We're Commandos who fly Spitfires. Chicks dig Commandos who fly Spitfires.

User avatar
Trollzyn the Infinite
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5496
Founded: Aug 22, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:22 pm

Nihon no Tengoku wrote:With all due respect, you've essentially written a scenario in which no reasonable person would say "no, I won't stop the genocide of millions of people."


The scenarios I write are typically designed as social experiments.

In this case, the question is will you intervene to save lives unlawfully even knowing full well that you can be punished for it? It's not a hard decision for someone like myself to make, but the ultimate point of the question and the scenario isn't whether or not you'll do the right thing or not, but rather how selfish are you to avoid doing the right thing when it's at a personal cost to you?

No "reasonable" person, it can be argued, would throw millions of lives--of their own people, no less--away just to avoid possible jail time. But you'd be surprised how unreasonable some people can be.
☆ American Patriot ☆ Civic Nationalist ☆ Rocker & Metalhead ☆ Heretical Christian ☆
"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right."

Reminder that Donald J. Trump is officially a traitor to the United States of America as of January 6th, 2021
The Paradox of Tolerance
永远不会忘记1989年6月4日天安门广场大屠杀
Ես Արցախի կողքին եմ
Wanted Fugitive of the Chinese Communist Party
Unapologetic stan for Lana Beniko - #1 Sith Waifu

User avatar
Thermodolia
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 78484
Founded: Oct 07, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Thermodolia » Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:23 pm

I’d start a coup and then invade said nation.
Male, Jewish, lives somewhere in AZ, Disabled US Military Veteran, Oorah!, I'm GAY!
I'm agent #69 in the Gaystapo!
>The Sons of Adam: I'd crown myself monarch... cuz why not?
>>Dumb Ideologies: Why not turn yourself into a penguin and build an igloo at the centre of the Earth?
Click for Da Funies

RIP Dya

User avatar
Thermodolia
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 78484
Founded: Oct 07, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Thermodolia » Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:25 pm

The New California Republic wrote:It depends what sort of government was in my own nation. If it was a dictatorship etc then a military coup could fix this, and then there could be an invasion of the genocidal nation with official sanction since I'd be the leader.

Even if it was a democratic nation I’d still fire a coup as like you said I’d be the leader
Male, Jewish, lives somewhere in AZ, Disabled US Military Veteran, Oorah!, I'm GAY!
I'm agent #69 in the Gaystapo!
>The Sons of Adam: I'd crown myself monarch... cuz why not?
>>Dumb Ideologies: Why not turn yourself into a penguin and build an igloo at the centre of the Earth?
Click for Da Funies

RIP Dya

User avatar
Nihon no Tengoku
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 41
Founded: Sep 10, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Nihon no Tengoku » Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:41 pm

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Nihon no Tengoku wrote:With all due respect, you've essentially written a scenario in which no reasonable person would say "no, I won't stop the genocide of millions of people."


The scenarios I write are typically designed as social experiments.

In this case, the question is will you intervene to save lives unlawfully even knowing full well that you can be punished for it? It's not a hard decision for someone like myself to make, but the ultimate point of the question and the scenario isn't whether or not you'll do the right thing or not, but rather how selfish are you to avoid doing the right thing when it's at a personal cost to you?

No "reasonable" person, it can be argued, would throw millions of lives--of their own people, no less--away just to avoid possible jail time. But you'd be surprised how unreasonable some people can be.

You're missing my point. If you wanted to make it more interesting, you should make the situation less clear cut. Right now, the only people who would go against the grain would be outliers, as you can see from the polling. This scenario is hardly the stuff of intense philosophical debate.

This is the equivalent if in the trolley problem, there was nobody on the other track. Obviously somebody would still refrain from pulling the lever, but that's hardly an interesting dilemma.

User avatar
Trollzyn the Infinite
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5496
Founded: Aug 22, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:50 pm

Nihon no Tengoku wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
The scenarios I write are typically designed as social experiments.

In this case, the question is will you intervene to save lives unlawfully even knowing full well that you can be punished for it? It's not a hard decision for someone like myself to make, but the ultimate point of the question and the scenario isn't whether or not you'll do the right thing or not, but rather how selfish are you to avoid doing the right thing when it's at a personal cost to you?

No "reasonable" person, it can be argued, would throw millions of lives--of their own people, no less--away just to avoid possible jail time. But you'd be surprised how unreasonable some people can be.

You're missing my point. If you wanted to make it more interesting, you should make the situation less clear cut. Right now, the only people who would go against the grain would be outliers, as you can see from the polling. This scenario is hardly the stuff of intense philosophical debate.

This is the equivalent if in the trolley problem, there was nobody on the other track. Obviously somebody would still refrain from pulling the lever, but that's hardly an interesting dilemma.


Honestly I don't have the energy to try harder. I know I should, but I can't. Maybe next time.
☆ American Patriot ☆ Civic Nationalist ☆ Rocker & Metalhead ☆ Heretical Christian ☆
"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right."

Reminder that Donald J. Trump is officially a traitor to the United States of America as of January 6th, 2021
The Paradox of Tolerance
永远不会忘记1989年6月4日天安门广场大屠杀
Ես Արցախի կողքին եմ
Wanted Fugitive of the Chinese Communist Party
Unapologetic stan for Lana Beniko - #1 Sith Waifu

User avatar
Purpelia
Post Czar
 
Posts: 34249
Founded: Oct 19, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Purpelia » Thu Oct 29, 2020 4:26 pm

What foreign governments do to their own citizens within their own borders is none of my concern. And ethnic belonging is utterly meaningless to anyone with half a brain. This being said it would appear that my troops do not have half a brain. And this does present me with a potential opportunity to pull off a coup and set my self up as a dictator in the name of forcing an intervention to stop the "evil". After all, if the current government is too weak and spineless to act than surely a more moral leader must arise to correct that. So depending on just how much of the military is behind me and what the overall international situation is I might just go for that.

But either way my motives are selfish. I couldn't care less about a mountain of corpses piling up on the wrong side of the border irregardless of whom they belong to.

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:No "reasonable" person, it can be argued, would throw millions of lives--of their own people, no less--away just to avoid possible jail time. But you'd be surprised how unreasonable some people can be.

There is nothing reasonable about sacrificing ones own self interest for the benefit of others. Indeed this is the opposite of reason. It is a purely emotional response based on empathy rather than sense.
Last edited by Purpelia on Thu Oct 29, 2020 4:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Purpelia does not reflect my actual world views. In fact, the vast majority of Purpelian cannon is meant to shock and thus deliberately insane. I just like playing with the idea of a country of madmen utterly convinced that everyone else are the barbarians. So play along or not but don't ever think it's for real.



The above post contains hyperbole, metaphoric language, embellishment and exaggeration. It may also include badly translated figures of speech and misused idioms. Analyze accordingly.

User avatar
Labbos
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 153
Founded: Oct 15, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Labbos » Thu Oct 29, 2020 4:46 pm

Nihon no Tengoku wrote:With all due respect, you've essentially written a scenario in which no reasonable person would say "no, I won't stop the genocide of millions of people."


How many tens of millions of lives would be lost during the civil war that rips your country apart once you do this? How many lives during the war on the other nation? Would the genocide be stopped in time? Would your army even win? What if another nation takes advantage to invade your country and genocide the people there? Would other nations be brought into the conflict, starting a wider and bloodier war? And what if someone disagreed with your decision but not the "might makes right" mentality, and chose to kill you and assume power? Assuming your country was a democracy before, what is the cost through the years of turning it into a military junta? After all, you have no mandate, so why should anybody obey any laws or rules in future?

And finally, why are the politicians taking no action? What do they know that you don't? What's going on behind the scenes of diplomacy?

This is not a scenario in which it's clear that one course of action is right. And if it's a democracy, general's are not the ones who should be making decisions on whether to invade sovereign nations.

Given the above, I would press through the proper channels, rather than giving up on the rule of law. I would also question why more isn't being done by the politicians.

User avatar
Echellia
Envoy
 
Posts: 242
Founded: Oct 22, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Echellia » Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:46 pm

I would act and save my people! After that, I will overthrow my corrupt government in a coup d'etat and make sure that justice prevails!
Proud borderline sucker!

User avatar
Nihon no Tengoku
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 41
Founded: Sep 10, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Nihon no Tengoku » Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:51 pm

Labbos wrote:
Nihon no Tengoku wrote:With all due respect, you've essentially written a scenario in which no reasonable person would say "no, I won't stop the genocide of millions of people."


How many tens of millions of lives would be lost during the civil war that rips your country apart once you do this? How many lives during the war on the other nation? Would the genocide be stopped in time? Would your army even win? What if another nation takes advantage to invade your country and genocide the people there? Would other nations be brought into the conflict, starting a wider and bloodier war? And what if someone disagreed with your decision but not the "might makes right" mentality, and chose to kill you and assume power? Assuming your country was a democracy before, what is the cost through the years of turning it into a military junta? After all, you have no mandate, so why should anybody obey any laws or rules in future?

And finally, why are the politicians taking no action? What do they know that you don't? What's going on behind the scenes of diplomacy?

This is not a scenario in which it's clear that one course of action is right. And if it's a democracy, general's are not the ones who should be making decisions on whether to invade sovereign nations.

Given the above, I would press through the proper channels, rather than giving up on the rule of law. I would also question why more isn't being done by the politicians.

Except those are not explicitly stated as parts of the premise (aside from the possibility of 'civil' whatever that means. Every other variable you mentioned is entirely based on conjecture that are not at all included in the premise of the question and - in the case of the country I live in - literally not relevant or applicable.

Sure, you can say "aha gotcha" by introducing variables that weren't even implied, and those WOULD make the question more interesting.

And, as the poll shows, the majority of NSers seem to advocate going in

User avatar
Ethel mermania
Post Overlord
 
Posts: 129508
Founded: Aug 20, 2010
Father Knows Best State

Postby Ethel mermania » Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:59 pm

If i have that kind of support in the military, first a coup to keep my rear safe, and then we march

OBEY THE KITTY

Image
https://www.hvst.com/posts/the-clash-of ... s-wl2TQBpY

The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion … but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.
--S. Huntington

The most fundamental problem of politics is not the control of wickedness but the limitation of righteousness. 

--H. Kissenger

User avatar
Albrenia
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16619
Founded: Aug 18, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Albrenia » Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:01 pm

I generally hate war, but I hate genocide even more.

I'd accept whatever punishment came my way afterwards, since I'd undoubtedly be breaking oaths of loyalty by acting thusly, but better to hang for saving millions than live on their corpses.

User avatar
Picairn
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10550
Founded: Feb 21, 2020
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Picairn » Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:14 pm

I will put an end to genocide, even if I may be court-martialed and stripped of my ranks and honours.

History will vindicate me! To arms! To arms!
Picairn's Ministry of Foreign Affairs
Minister: Edward H. Cornell
WA Ambassador: John M. Terry (Active)
Factbook | Constitution | Newspaper
Social democrat, passionate political observer, and naval warfare enthusiast.
More NSG-y than NSG veterans
♛ The Empire of Picairn ♛
-✯ ✯ ✯ ✯ ✯-—————————-✯ ✯ ✯ ✯ ✯-
Colonel (Brevet) of the North Pacific Army, COO of Warzone Trinidad

User avatar
Hardscrab
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 17
Founded: Oct 04, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Hardscrab » Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:15 pm

“Gather you weapons men, today we make history! The enemy is within us, among us and in front of us! We will defeat the terrorists across the border and save our brothers and sisters who suffer oppression. Then we march as one against those who have oppressed our people from within our own homeland!”

Then thousands of my soldiers shout war cries and words of enthusiasm as they brandish their rifles. At daybreak we storm across the border in a glorious charge of tanks and helicopters that completely overwhelms the enemy. Then I return to my home country with the entire armed forces and the vast majority of the people in adulation of my military prowess. I depose of the entire previous government and begin ruling my newly formed nation and the territory I invaded with a firm but fair hand. And then, when I die in a glorious gunfight with five assassins a new military-dictator takes over and becomes a ruthless despot that causes three genocides.

User avatar
Hardscrab
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 17
Founded: Oct 04, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Hardscrab » Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:16 pm

Ethel mermania wrote:If i have that kind of support in the military, first a coup to keep my rear safe, and then we march

OBEY THE KITTY

(Image)


I’d support the grand dictatorship

User avatar
Hardscrab
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 17
Founded: Oct 04, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Hardscrab » Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:20 pm

The New California Republic wrote:It depends what sort of government was in my own nation. If it was a dictatorship etc then a military coup could fix this, and then there could be an invasion of the genocidal nation with official sanction since I'd be the leader.


Of course if it’s a democracy that’s still not stopping you from becoming the supreme leader after you take control of the nations military forces and a bunch of very thankful neighbors

User avatar
Ethel mermania
Post Overlord
 
Posts: 129508
Founded: Aug 20, 2010
Father Knows Best State

Postby Ethel mermania » Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:26 pm

Hardscrab wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:If i have that kind of support in the military, first a coup to keep my rear safe, and then we march

OBEY THE KITTY

(Image)


I’d support the grand dictatorship

kibble and tasty Salmon for all.
https://www.hvst.com/posts/the-clash-of ... s-wl2TQBpY

The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion … but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.
--S. Huntington

The most fundamental problem of politics is not the control of wickedness but the limitation of righteousness. 

--H. Kissenger

User avatar
The Two Jerseys
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 20971
Founded: Jun 07, 2012
Father Knows Best State

Postby The Two Jerseys » Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:33 pm

Picairn wrote:I will put an end to genocide, even if I may be court-martialed and stripped of my ranks and honours.

History will vindicate me! To arms! To arms!

Not when you overthrow your corrupt superiors as well...
"The Duke of Texas" is too formal for regular use. Just call me "Your Grace".
"If I would like to watch goodness, sanity, God and logic being fucked I would watch Japanese porn." -Nightkill the Emperor
"This thread makes me wish I was a moron so that I wouldn't have to comprehend how stupid the topic is." -The Empire of Pretantia
Head of State: HM King Louis
Head of Government: The Rt. Hon. James O'Dell MP, Prime Minister
Ambassador to the World Assembly: HE Sir John Ross "J.R." Ewing II, Bt.
Join Excalibur Squadron. We're Commandos who fly Spitfires. Chicks dig Commandos who fly Spitfires.

User avatar
Plzen
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9805
Founded: Mar 19, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Plzen » Thu Oct 29, 2020 11:59 pm

Purpelia wrote:-snip-

I have to ask, since you are the radical individualist of these forums, what do you think about superrational behaviour? Not whether or not that is how humans behave - I’m well aware that it is not - but whether you consider it to be a desirable way for humans to behave and why/why not.

Next

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Cyptopir, Emotional Support Crocodile, Ethel mermania, General TN, Hypron, Ifreann, Ineva, Kreushia, Mergold-Aurlia, Merien, Nanatsu no Tsuki, Thermodolia, Tungstan, Valentine Z, Wisteria and Surrounding Territories

Advertisement

Remove ads