Poland abortion ruling sparks 'women's strike'

[Mercatus]

Good on Poland for this ruling. Abortion is murder of an innocent human being and these pro-choice activists wish to deny a fetus their right to life. Pro-Choice activists are hypocrites, they say that people don't have the right to make medical decisions for others, yet an expecting mother deciding to terminate a child still growing inside her is doing exactly that. I find what these women are doing to be appalling, and they deserve whatever punishment is coming to them.

A fetus is no more a human being than a tumor, particularly in the first several weeks. Moreover, what born human has the right to use another's body in such a way?

Did the fetus do anything that warranted him/her being killed? I'm not allowed to murder someone for trespassing or using my property, as that is basically what you are comparing pregnancy to.

[Necroghastia]

A fetus is no more a human being than a tumor, particularly in the first several weeks. Moreover, what born human has the right to use another's body in such a way?

Did the fetus do anything that warranted him/her being killed? I'm not allowed to murder someone for trespassing or using my property, as that is basically what you are comparing pregnancy to.

You certainly are if your own body is being intruded upon.

[Diarcesia]

A fetus is no more a human being than a tumor, particularly in the first several weeks. Moreover, what born human has the right to use another's body in such a way?

Did the fetus do anything that warranted him/her being killed? I'm not allowed to murder someone for trespassing or using my property, as that is basically what you are comparing pregnancy to.

I believe we're working on a wrong assumption here. Making it legal does not mean women will automatically default on doing it.

[Thepeopl]

Good on Poland for this ruling. Abortion is murder of an innocent human being and these pro-choice activists wish to deny a fetus their right to life. Pro-Choice activists are hypocrites, they say that people don't have the right to make medical decisions for others, yet an expecting mother deciding to terminate a child still growing inside her is doing exactly that. I find what these women are doing to be appalling, and they deserve whatever punishment is coming to them.

Who says pro choice don't approve of making medical decisions for others?
All parents/ guardians make medical choices for their wards. You don't hear pro choice protesters on this right?
Some pro choice even support euthanasia for children/ terminally ill family members who cannot decide for themselves yet/ anymore.
Pro choice should be called pro well being. And pro life would be pro suffering.

[Albrenia]

A fetus is no more a human being than a tumor, particularly in the first several weeks. Moreover, what born human has the right to use another's body in such a way?

Did the fetus do anything that warranted him/her being killed? I'm not allowed to murder someone for trespassing or using my property, as that is basically what you are comparing pregnancy to.

It's a bit more serious than merely using one's property or trespassing, it's using one's body and internal resources. It's also possibly life threatening, particularly if the birth is secret and medical professionals are not involved.

[Vassenor]

So the protests against this ruling are getting pretty big.

[The New California Republic]

A fetus is no more a human being than a tumor, particularly in the first several weeks. Moreover, what born human has the right to use another's body in such a way?

Did the fetus do anything that warranted him/her being killed? I'm not allowed to murder someone for trespassing or using my property, as that is basically what you are comparing pregnancy to.

No, you are interpreting this incorrectly. It isn't property as such that is being infringed upon, it's one's body. This distinction is actually important, as if another is infringing on one's bodily sovereignty and the only way to stop them results in their death, then that's an entirely justified action as far as the law is concerned; this is shown for example if a rapist is killed by the victim during the course of stopping the rape, if there was no other way to stop it: the law would regard that as a justified action.

[Esalia]

Good on Poland for this ruling. Abortion is murder of an innocent human being and these pro-choice activists wish to deny a fetus their right to life. Pro-Choice activists are hypocrites, they say that people don't have the right to make medical decisions for others, yet an expecting mother deciding to terminate a child still growing inside her is doing exactly that. I find what these women are doing to be appalling, and they deserve whatever punishment is coming to them.

Only if you fundamentally misunderstand the pro-choice position.

[New yugoslavaia]

Good on Poland for this ruling. Abortion is murder of an innocent human being and these pro-choice activists wish to deny a fetus their right to life. Pro-Choice activists are hypocrites, they say that people don't have the right to make medical decisions for others, yet an expecting mother deciding to terminate a child still growing inside her is doing exactly that. I find what these women are doing to be appalling, and they deserve whatever punishment is coming to them.

Only if you fundamentally misunderstand the pro-choice position.

Choice is literally in the name.
Besides, pro-choice activists don't go around shooting up hospitals.

[Esalia]

Only if you fundamentally misunderstand the pro-choice position.

Choice is literally in the name.
Besides, pro-choice activists don't go around shooting up hospitals.

Plus, it assumes that abortion is "making medical decisions for others".
Which, I guess you could argue that, but then stuff like self-defence and most legal punishments would be "making life decisions for others", which would lead to some very weird conclusions if you follow it through.

[Mustardaise]

Good on Poland for this ruling. Abortion is murder of an innocent human being and these pro-choice activists wish to deny a fetus their right to life. Pro-Choice activists are hypocrites, they say that people don't have the right to make medical decisions for others, yet an expecting mother deciding to terminate a child still growing inside her is doing exactly that. I find what these women are doing to be appalling, and they deserve whatever punishment is coming to them.

Way to go, hero, Champion of the Children! Ignore everyone's points and arguments - we need more orphanages, because that will give us an excuse to raise taxes even further, all for the heroic mission of preserving lives of people who have a hopeless future to look forward to. We will gladly take them for ourselves, have them say how grateful they are for having been born, then discard them once we win another election and further fuel our incompetent cabinet, chosen by incompetent people who were simply desperate for money which we took from them because we know better how to use it than they do, so we decided to hand it out after we arbitrarily generated more of it, while making the rest go in our pockets and our reality generator called the national TV. Everyone ought to know how horrible pro-choice people are for wanting to leave an option to people, and how heroic are the people who force adults and their children into life of misery associated with poorly planned child raising, or no child raising at all. It benefits everyone - the children, the adults, the economy. And women, most of all. The people and the women - as those two obviously deserve their own categories. After all, who's best equipped to make decisions for them, if not us?

[The Restored Danelaw]

I'd say I'm disappointed, but there's little in the post-Soviet bloc states that actually can disappoint me any further than I already am. Disgusting of Poland, but nothing you wouldn't expect from a shithole that unironically has "LGBT-Free" zones.

[The Restored Danelaw]

A fetus is no more a human being than a tumor, particularly in the first several weeks. Moreover, what born human has the right to use another's body in such a way?

Did the fetus do anything that warranted him/her being killed? I'm not allowed to murder someone for trespassing or using my property, as that is basically what you are comparing pregnancy to.

If we have make a ridiculous comparison, this would still not be alike to "Home invasion" -as apart from rape, a fetus being in a person's body is done with the consent of the host. It's you having a right not to donate blood or an organ to someone who's dying right in front of you.

[Mustardaise]

I'd say I'm disappointed, but there's little in the post-Soviet bloc states that actually can disappoint me any further than I already am. Disgusting of Poland, but nothing you wouldn't expect from a shithole that unironically has "LGBT-Free" zones.

Poland is not some uniform entity, mate. The cabinet and people who voted for them leave a lot to be wished for, but there are also people who do not care for it and protest. I've seen graffiti saying "LGBT-friendly zone" just as much as "LGBT-free zone". Condemning an entire nation is not right.

Rarely is any nation at all uniform. Those protests are happening so people like you can be reassured some part of the nation is still okay.

[The Restored Danelaw]

I'd say I'm disappointed, but there's little in the post-Soviet bloc states that actually can disappoint me any further than I already am. Disgusting of Poland, but nothing you wouldn't expect from a shithole that unironically has "LGBT-Free" zones.

Poland is not some uniform entity, mate. The cabinet and people who voted for them leave a lot to be wished for, but there are also people who do not care for it and protest. I've seen graffiti saying "LGBT-friendly zone" just as much as "LGBT-free zone". Condemning an entire nation is not right.

Rarely is any nation at all uniform. Those protests are happening so people like you can be reassured some part of the nation is still okay.

Poland's a flawed democracy, but it's not an authoritarian state. The current government is objectively a representative of the Polish People, or at least a majority of the number of them that cared enough about politics to show up and vote this last few elections. While Poland is obviously not uniform -as you suggested, people affected by a ruling are protesting against it- I am well within my rights to put the blame of continuous breach of human rights done by the Polish state at the hand of the people that keep voting them into office.

[Mustardaise]

Poland is not some uniform entity, mate. The cabinet and people who voted for them leave a lot to be wished for, but there are also people who do not care for it and protest. I've seen graffiti saying "LGBT-friendly zone" just as much as "LGBT-free zone". Condemning an entire nation is not right.

Rarely is any nation at all uniform. Those protests are happening so people like you can be reassured some part of the nation is still okay.

Poland's a flawed democracy, but it's not an authoritarian state. The current government is objectively a representative of the Polish People, or at least a majority of the number of them that cared enough about politics to show up and vote this last few elections. While Poland is obviously not uniform -as you suggested, people affected by a ruling are protesting against it- I am well within my rights to put the blame of continuous breach of human rights done by the Polish state at the hand of the people that keep voting them into office.

I'll be honest with you - I kind of played Devil's advocate with you. I have a similar sentiment as you do. But the way you worded it... well, that was harsher than I took it when I was listening to myself say the exact same thing.

The major issue with Polish people who are (I'd say) older than 40 is that they are heavily opinionated while not necessarily being informed. They are apolitical and yet they think they are very knowledgeable on the subject. As long as it is not PO/PiS (pick one) that wins, they are fine. The rest is irrelevant

[Luminesa]

I agree with the law myself, as abortion against children with fetal defects reeks of eugenics. However, as a side note, while the Polish government I suppose has a right to protest in their constitution, I’m shocked that Poland is allowing protests as large as they have been, and no it’s not just because I happen to not agree with them. They’ve just recently had a national spike in COVID cases, but that doesn’t stop people from apparently filling every last corner of the street and looked like ants. Even Portland didn’t have protests that big. (Then again Portland’s not that big.) I wonder how exactly Polish leadership will respond.

Christ have mercy. These look like the protests in Belarus in size...and those were over something about the leader being authoritarian? A few years ago this law would have been more embraced from what I know, and while I know a significant amount of Poland’s population remains church-going Catholics, I have no idea what has caused this much of a shift. Is it the president himself who is unpopular?

[Luminesa]

Good on Poland for this ruling. Abortion is murder of an innocent human being and these pro-choice activists wish to deny a fetus their right to life. Pro-Choice activists are hypocrites, they say that people don't have the right to make medical decisions for others, yet an expecting mother deciding to terminate a child still growing inside her is doing exactly that. I find what these women are doing to be appalling, and they deserve whatever punishment is coming to them.

Way to go, hero, Champion of the Children! Ignore everyone's points and arguments - we need more orphanages, because that will give us an excuse to raise taxes even further, all for the heroic mission of preserving lives of people who have a hopeless future to look forward to. We will gladly take them for ourselves, have them say how grateful they are for having been born, then discard them once we win another election and further fuel our incompetent cabinet, chosen by incompetent people who were simply desperate for money which we took from them because we know better how to use it than they do, so we decided to hand it out after we arbitrarily generated more of it, while making the rest go in our pockets and our reality generator called the national TV. Everyone ought to know how horrible pro-choice people are for wanting to leave an option to people, and how heroic are the people who force adults and their children into life of misery associated with poorly planned child raising, or no child raising at all. It benefits everyone - the children, the adults, the economy. And women, most of all. The people and the women - as those two obviously deserve their own categories. After all, who's best equipped to make decisions for them, if not us?

I mean the option that would make it so that everyone has a chance to live a decent life is to improve supports for people with special needs AND to improve support to their mothers, before and after they are born.

[Mustardaise]

I mean the option that would make it so that everyone has a chance to live a decent life is to improve supports for people with special needs AND to improve support to their mothers, before and after they are born.

Who's gonna pay those taxes? Retired people who earn three-figure wages? Youngsters who took loans for education and housing and suddenly lost their jobs due to the pandemic? 500+ beneficiaries? Or maybe there will be no tax raises, but orphanages are going to suffer? Or maybe hospitals, where those children will likely need to go on regular basis?

I can assure you that PiS will not drop their investment in the national TV - if anything, they will only raise it. Especially when the money is supposed to benefit disadvantaged families.

[Luminesa]

I mean the option that would make it so that everyone has a chance to live a decent life is to improve supports for people with special needs AND to improve support to their mothers, before and after they are born.

Who's gonna pay those taxes? Retired people who earn three-figure wages? Youngsters who took loans for education and housing? 500+ beneficiaries? Or maybe there will be no tax raises, but orphanages are going to suffer? Or maybe hospitals, where those children will likely need to go on regular basis?

I can assure you that PiS will not drop their investment in the national TV - if anything, they will only raise it.

It’s pretty amazing that a humane option is presented and the first answer I get is, “Who’s gonna pay those taxes?” It comes across to me as a very libertarian response. The problem is that improvements to all (or most?...at least in the US) public social services require an increase in taxes, and that’s enough of a price in order to make sure that the overall quality of life of all people is increased. Now I don’t entirely know how that works in Poland, but considering that Poland has made significant progress raising its standard of living after the fall of the USSR, I don’t see why they can’t continue on that path. I would rather raise taxes than kill-off a bunch of children who mostly have livable conditions (Down Syndrome being the big one).

I suppose WHO probably should be the rich people who make the most money, if that means anything. The problem is everyone pays taxes, but the rich should pay the most, in my opinion. I suppose I should add this here so that someone doesn’t say, “OH SHE WANTS POOR ELDERLY PEOPLE TO PAY EVERYTHING OUT OF THEIR PENSIONS!” Please no. Those who make the most money should make sure that everyone else can have a decent quality of life, especially when the gap between the rich and the poor is increasing in the “developed” world. And that includes making sure that elderly people can live on their pensions and making sure that mothers with children with special needs CAN raise those children.

[Punished UMN]

I stand with the brave women of Poland, who fight against this ruling. Abortion access is critical, and is a human right nobody should ever take away. May their strike be successful.

Positive rights are necessarily granted by the state, you don't just get them, the state decides if you have them or not, they cannot be human rights, and this isn't even getting into the problem with human rights as a concept.

[Mustardaise]

I suppose WHO probably should be the rich people who make the most money, if that means anything. The problem is everyone pays taxes, but the rich should pay the most, in my opinion. I suppose I should add this here so that someone doesn’t say, “OH SHE WANTS POOR ELDERLY PEOPLE TO PAY EVERYTHING OUT OF THEIR PENSIONS!” Please no. Those who make the most money should make sure that everyone else can have a decent quality of life, especially when the gap between the rich and the poor is increasing in the “developed” world. And that includes making sure that elderly people can live on their pensions and making sure that mothers with children with special needs CAN raise those children.

I actually agree with you, taxes should be more progressive. There are two problems though:
1. The law enforcement here isn't very competent (just as much as the government) and those with the means (i.e. the rich) can often work around the law - meaning that they don't get to pay their due. There are also tax heavens and unaccounted income as well. The rest of the society has to be honest about their incomes, because they don't have the means to outsmart the system.
2. The government does not keep up its promises and invests the tax money into advancing its own agenda (primarily through the national TV) rather than public services.

Thus, PiS will not introduce progressive taxes anytime soon, because it is simply easier to exploit those who are jaded, incompetent and are running out of time and money to make ends meet. Truly, surprising. And very libertarian of me, to feel sorry for those people.

PiS-governed Poland, for all of its apparent welfare programs (which is merely populistic posteuring to get votes), demands libertarian demeanor from its citizens in order to stay afloat. When I mentioned retired people who get three-figure salaries and effectively still need to work after formally retiring in order to survive, I did mean it.

[Luminesa]

I suppose WHO probably should be the rich people who make the most money, if that means anything. The problem is everyone pays taxes, but the rich should pay the most, in my opinion. I suppose I should add this here so that someone doesn’t say, “OH SHE WANTS POOR ELDERLY PEOPLE TO PAY EVERYTHING OUT OF THEIR PENSIONS!” Please no. Those who make the most money should make sure that everyone else can have a decent quality of life, especially when the gap between the rich and the poor is increasing in the “developed” world. And that includes making sure that elderly people can live on their pensions and making sure that mothers with children with special needs CAN raise those children.

I actually agree with you, taxes should be more progressive. There are two problems though:
1. The law enforcement here isn't very competent (just as much as the government) and those with the means (i.e. the rich) can often work around the law - meaning that they don't get to pay their due. There are also tax heavens and unaccounted income as well. The rest of the society has to be honest about their incomes, because they don't have the means to outsmart the system.
2. The government does not keep up its promises and invests the tax money into advancing its own agenda (primarily through the national TV) rather than public services.

Thus, PiS will not introduce progressive taxes anytime soon, because it is simply easier to exploit those who are jaded, incompetent and are running out of time and money to make ends meet. Truly, surprising. And very libertarian of me, to feel sorry for those people.

PiS-governed Poland, for all of its apparent welfare programs (which is merely populistic posteuring to get votes), demands libertarian demeanor from its citizens in order to stay afloat. When I mentioned retired people who get three-figure salaries and effectively still need to work after formally retiring in order to survive, I did mean it.

I misinterpreted your feelings because generally the people who seem to be angriest over tax raises over here lean libertarian, my mistake.

[Kubra]

The issue of abortion is less clear-cut than something like infant circumcision (because you have to decide whether the fetus's or mother's bodily autonomy should be prioritized, as is the case with abortion...instead of the simple question of being allowed to trample on an infant's bodily autonomy or not, as is the case with circumcision), but having access to abortion appears to have a net societal benefit. So attempts to retain it, within reason, are probably in everyone's best interest (minus that of fetuses, of course).

However, I believe there was some sort of Women's Strike in the US a few years ago which amounted to nothing, so they should hope this one accomplishes its goals.

Any strike depends on the number of participants (this less folks participating in economic activity) and the goods, what you're supposed to get out of the strike.
I recall that one, from Amber Frost's description it was a handful of professors demanding pretty much anything they could think of, which just ain't a strike in any sense of the word.

[The Marlborough]

Good on Poland for this ruling. Abortion is murder of an innocent human being and these pro-choice activists wish to deny a fetus their right to life. Pro-Choice activists are hypocrites, they say that people don't have the right to make medical decisions for others, yet an expecting mother deciding to terminate a child still growing inside her is doing exactly that. I find what these women are doing to be appalling, and they deserve whatever punishment is coming to them.

A fetus is no more a human being than a tumor, particularly in the first several weeks.

Fundamentally untrue. Unless tumors have suddenly gained totipotency they are fundamentally different things. I wonder if pro-choice people ever stop to realize how stupid a lot of their comparisons are to people who have some degree of knowledge in biology.