Should we be removing statues and logos?

[Vu Den Voc]

I'm all for tearing down statues of Columbus and Confederate leaders. Columbus was a genocidal rapist and slaver who even the Spanish Crown thought was a monster. CSA leaders were traitors who fought for slavery. Neither get any sympathy from me.

"History" isn't an excuse. We have books and museums for these people. They won't be forgotten and neither will their crimes. We don't need statues of them.

Exactly, we now about people who didn't even have statues or really a written record, yet we know so much about them

[Auzkhia]

Let's tear down the statues of Washington because it was bad and in its place we put statues of Marx who was a good person

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Though they're not exact comparable. Why not Thomas Paine statues?

Man please don't make a fool of yourself, a lot of people have been important to history, and it's wrong to glorify them, but it's also wrong to hate them just because they don't meet modern standards

Mind you fetishizing history is such a thing especially as a basis for the fictions of nationalism and patriotism. Washington is the prime god of the American Civic Religion.

[The Blaatschapen]

I think we've removed logos from politics for a long time now. Only pathos prevails.

[The New California Republic]

Regarding the removal of statues related to the fall of communism, there are still a few elements of East Germany that still survive in that regard, including a statue of Marx and Engels in Berlin, a gigantic bust of Marx in Chemnitz,
a statue of Ernst Thälmann in Berlin, etc. Even in terms of the names of squares and streets there are still several hundred streets and squares with Thälmann-derived names, and an equal number of many with Marx-derived names.

There's also a big statue of Lenin in Seattle, which was saved from a scrapyard in Czechoslovakia.

Oh yes, that's the one that's quite prominent in the middle of a public area so folk can see it, but it's actually sat on private land and in private ownership so nobody can do anything about it. If I remember rightly the statue was only a few years old when it was removed from display in Czechoslovakia, so it was in excellent condition when the new owner got it.

[The Reformed American Republic]

I'm all for tearing down statues of Columbus and Confederate leaders. Columbus was a genocidal rapist and slaver who even the Spanish Crown thought was a monster. CSA leaders were traitors who fought for slavery. Neither get any sympathy from me.

"History" isn't an excuse. We have books and museums for these people. They won't be forgotten and neither will their crimes. We don't need statues of them.

The problem is when people extend it to all of our founding fathers.

[Farnhamia]

There's also a big statue of Lenin in Seattle, which was saved from a scrapyard in Czechoslovakia.

Oh yes, that's the one that's quite prominent in the middle of a public area so folk can see it, but it's actually sat on private land and in private ownership so nobody can do anything about it. If I remember rightly the statue was only a few years old when it was removed from display in Czechoslovakia, so it was in excellent condition when the new owner got it.

And some poor old Czech person was living in it before the rich capitalist American bought it.

[Auzkhia]

I'm all for tearing down statues of Columbus and Confederate leaders. Columbus was a genocidal rapist and slaver who even the Spanish Crown thought was a monster. CSA leaders were traitors who fought for slavery. Neither get any sympathy from me.

"History" isn't an excuse. We have books and museums for these people. They won't be forgotten and neither will their crimes. We don't need statues of them.

The problem is when people extend it to all of our founding fathers.

The deification of them is enough of a reason to knock them down a peg. Washington has a state, many cities and counties, face on money, and goddamn obelisk, he'll be fine.

I'm from an area that drenches itself in such history, we've got landmark museums to show that off.

[The Reformed American Republic]

The problem is when people extend it to all of our founding fathers.

The deification of them is enough of a reason to knock them down a peg. Washington has a state, many cities and counties, face on money, and goddamn obelisk, he'll be fine.

I'm from an area that drenches itself in such history, we've got landmark museums to show that off.

I like honoring the people who founded the country and set good things in motion, even though they had flaws. I'm weird that way.

[Tsaivao]

I think we've removed logos from politics for a long time now. Only pathos prevails.

Underrated comment.

The problem is that you're asking a super broad question with no regards to what the problem is. Do you know why people want to destroy these statues? Do you know the stories behind them? Do you know the modern problems that are caused by these statues? Instead you just ask "Should we tear down statues?" which is a question without context or information other than a negative judgement value from the OP (putting racist in "air quotes" doesn't explain anything, it just shows that you're trivializing the whole matter). It sounds to me instead like you desire affirmation that removing statues is bad, and you're finding it very concerning that other people think differently than you.

We don't want to tear down the entirety of American history, we just want to tear down the damn cult that's spawned around it. Patriotism can be a great thing, but I believe that we let it blind ourselves to absolute tragedies. We should hold figures of the past accountable, even if they were great for their time, we must always be willing to question them on what they did, or else we're just committing ourselves to ancestor worship rather than historical debate. (To clarify, I don't treat all founding fathers equally. George I'm indifferent to, Franklin has me a bit concerned, Thomas Jefferson is a scumbag in my eyes (even for his time he was considered extraordinarily racist), and Hamilton is someone I actually do respect quite earnestly. It's important to remember that they're all just people, with flaws, and we're allowed to dislike them for their flaws)

[Ifreann]

There's also a big statue of Lenin in Seattle, which was saved from a scrapyard in Czechoslovakia.

Oh yes, that's the one that's quite prominent in the middle of a public area so folk can see it, but it's actually sat on private land and in private ownership so nobody can do anything about it. If I remember rightly the statue was only a few years old when it was removed from display in Czechoslovakia, so it was in excellent condition when the new owner got it.

Apparently it's also for sale, so if you ever find yourself with a quarter of a million dollars and don't know what to do with it, you could have a lovely bronze statue of Lenin.

---

I'm all for tearing down statues of Columbus and Confederate leaders. Columbus was a genocidal rapist and slaver who even the Spanish Crown thought was a monster. CSA leaders were traitors who fought for slavery. Neither get any sympathy from me.

"History" isn't an excuse. We have books and museums for these people. They won't be forgotten and neither will their crimes. We don't need statues of them.

The problem is when people extend it to all of our founding fathers.

It's not really a problem at all, though. No one is going to forget who those men are without statues of them.

[The New California Republic]

Oh yes, that's the one that's quite prominent in the middle of a public area so folk can see it, but it's actually sat on private land and in private ownership so nobody can do anything about it. If I remember rightly the statue was only a few years old when it was removed from display in Czechoslovakia, so it was in excellent condition when the new owner got it.

And some poor old Czech person was living in it before the rich capitalist American bought it.

I bet there are not many people who can say that Lenin was their house.

[Auzkhia]

The deification of them is enough of a reason to knock them down a peg. Washington has a state, many cities and counties, face on money, and goddamn obelisk, he'll be fine.

I'm from an area that drenches itself in such history, we've got landmark museums to show that off.

I like honoring the people who founded the country and set good things in motion, even though they had flaws. I'm weird that way.

Even if they were most honorable gentlemen, I don't hate the player, I hate the system and the game. Their actions and consequences are enough for me to refuse to metaphorically kneel at their altars. The incessant worship of them has led to many things including attitudes that old this supposedly great country back.

I refuse to be governed by the phantoms of a by-gone era.

[Vu Den Voc]

I'm all for tearing down statues of Columbus and Confederate leaders. Columbus was a genocidal rapist and slaver who even the Spanish Crown thought was a monster. CSA leaders were traitors who fought for slavery. Neither get any sympathy from me.

"History" isn't an excuse. We have books and museums for these people. They won't be forgotten and neither will their crimes. We don't need statues of them.

The problem is when people extend it to all of our founding fathers.

Just because someone founded our country does not mean we should honor them. Tell the Germans to honor hitler or the Russians to honor stalin, etc. Some of the founding fathers were terrible people that don't deserve to be honored.

[Western Theram]

Recently in the USA, people have been taking down statues and logos because they are "racist". The question is, is it worth it?

I disagree, because we are removing our history and trying to forget our past, but that's my opinion on it.

context is key though, removing the dozens of confederate statues isn't wrong as most were made by the daughters of the confederacy to rewrite history and promote the lost cause myth. that being said if they are an important part of history then put it in a museum. i mean other countries are doing that too, Belgium recently removed a leopold ii statue for his genocide in the congo. just cause the statues are gone doesn't mean everyone forgets history all of a sudden

[Ifreann]

And some poor old Czech person was living in it before the rich capitalist American bought it.

I bet there are not many people who can say that Lenin was their house.

My brother knows Karl Marx
Lives inside his statue in the People's Park

[Auzkhia]

The problem is when people extend it to all of our founding fathers.

Just because someone founded our country does not mean we should honor them. Tell the Germans to honor hitler or the Russians to honor stalin, etc. Some of the founding fathers were terrible people that don't deserve to be honored.

Hitler wasn't a founding figure.

I don't think I have ever seen any Bismarck statues, only some streets in cities. Though Russia still has the Lenin mausoleum.

[The New California Republic]

Oh yes, that's the one that's quite prominent in the middle of a public area so folk can see it, but it's actually sat on private land and in private ownership so nobody can do anything about it. If I remember rightly the statue was only a few years old when it was removed from display in Czechoslovakia, so it was in excellent condition when the new owner got it.

Apparently it's also for sale, so if you ever find yourself with a quarter of a million dollars and don't know what to do with it, you could have a lovely bronze statue of Lenin.

Could bring it to the UK, and the cycle of controversy seen in Seattle would begin all over again. Mind you it actually might not be that controversial here, as there is already one in Belfast, over the entrance of a gay bar in Belfast called The Kremlin Bar...

But tbh I bet they'd be willing to haggle, and I'd give the difference to the guy who used to live inside it (if he's still around that is...)

[Sanghyeok]

Let's tear down the statues of Washington because it was bad and in its place we put statues of Marx who was a good person

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[Cordel One]

Oh yes, that's the one that's quite prominent in the middle of a public area so folk can see it, but it's actually sat on private land and in private ownership so nobody can do anything about it. If I remember rightly the statue was only a few years old when it was removed from display in Czechoslovakia, so it was in excellent condition when the new owner got it.

Apparently it's also for sale, so if you ever find yourself with a quarter of a million dollars and don't know what to do with it, you could have a lovely bronze statue of Lenin.

Buying a Lenin statue is very ironic.

Let's tear down the statues of Washington because it was bad and in its place we put statues of Marx who was a good person

This but unironically.

[Vu Den Voc]

Just because someone founded our country does not mean we should honor them. Tell the Germans to honor hitler or the Russians to honor stalin, etc. Some of the founding fathers were terrible people that don't deserve to be honored.

Hitler wasn't a founding figure.

I don't think I have ever seen any Bismarck statues, only some streets in cities. Though Russia still has the Lenin mausoleum.

However some say that he turned Germany into a industrial powerhouse, but Germany is not my expertise so I'm not gonna get into that.

[Auzkhia]

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Apparently it's also for sale, so if you ever find yourself with a quarter of a million dollars and don't know what to do with it, you could have a lovely bronze statue of Lenin.

Buying a Lenin statue is very ironic.

Communist chic is certainly that superficially but capitalism will turn anything into a commodity to be bought and sold. People will say things about China and Mao themed gift shops.

Hitler wasn't a founding figure.

I don't think I have ever seen any Bismarck statues, only some streets in cities. Though Russia still has the Lenin mausoleum.

However some say that he turned Germany into a industrial powerhouse, but Germany is not my expertise so I'm not gonna get into that.

Germany was already that and the Nazis made no difference, hell, they arguably made it worse, there were so so so many inefficiencies with their economy and the grand plan was to conquer eastern europe to fix that.

[The Reformed American Republic]

Hitler wasn't a founding figure.

I don't think I have ever seen any Bismarck statues, only some streets in cities. Though Russia still has the Lenin mausoleum.

However some say that he turned Germany into a industrial powerhouse, but Germany is not my expertise so I'm not gonna get into that.

He destroyed Germany, and Germany existed as a society and a nation way before Hitler popped up. Plus, Hitler killed more people than our founders did.

[Phaenix]

As an American, I believe that we should remove Confederate statues. Why? Because they committed treason. They lost. Why should we glorify a failed nation? Better yet, why should we glorify a racist, slaving nation?

[Ifreann]

Just because someone founded our country does not mean we should honor them. Tell the Germans to honor hitler or the Russians to honor stalin, etc. Some of the founding fathers were terrible people that don't deserve to be honored.

Hitler wasn't a founding figure.

I don't think I have ever seen any Bismarck statues, only some streets in cities. Though Russia still has the Lenin mausoleum.

There's a Bismarck statue in the Tiergarten in Berlin.

[The New California Republic]

Hitler wasn't a founding figure.

I don't think I have ever seen any Bismarck statues, only some streets in cities. Though Russia still has the Lenin mausoleum.

There's a Bismarck statue in the Tiergarten in Berlin.

There's also one in Hamburg too.