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by The Reformed American Republic » Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:08 am
by Old Tyrannia » Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:11 am
by Western Theram » Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:16 am
Valrifell wrote:I say we go full Iconoclast, destroy all symbols and imagery meant to inspire reverence. No logos, no statues, no plaques, no headstones.
news:Gang of goblins charged with racketeering after gang war was interrupted.|Free Ravensburg coins the name of our animal: the Jackaroo
by Dominioan » Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:16 am
by Kowani » Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:17 am
by Old Tyrannia » Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:51 am
Kowani wrote:Old Tyrannia wrote:I'm not sure what your point is.
A) That the actions of the mob are just as long lasting as those of the committee (so long as the mob is composed of people from the committee
B) Attempting to oppose a necessary change because you dislike the process and not the outcome is nonsensical
by Kowani » Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:04 am
I oppose the death penalty in all circumstances, so I do actually have a problem with that. Nice try though.Old Tyrannia wrote:Kowani wrote:A) That the actions of the mob are just as long lasting as those of the committee (so long as the mob is composed of people from the committee
B) Attempting to oppose a necessary change because you dislike the process and not the outcome is nonsensical
So I take it you have no problem with people being lynched by mobs as long as they are guilty of whatever they're being lynched for?
Sure they can.Processes are important. People can't just go about vandalising public property with impunity.
If a statue is controversial and there are people who wish for it to be removed, then there should be an open public discussion where the whole community can put their view forward and the people we elect to make these kinds of decisions for us should have the final say. If any group of disaffected people can simply go about tearing down public monuments they don't like and expect them not to be put back up again, that is bypassing the whole democratic and legal process.
by Necroghastia » Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:11 am
Untecna wrote:Recently in the USA, people have been taking down statues and logos because they are "racist". The question is, is it worth it?
I disagree, because we are removing our history and trying to forget our past, but that's my opinion on it.
by Valrifell » Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:16 am
Necroghastia wrote:Untecna wrote:Recently in the USA, people have been taking down statues and logos because they are "racist". The question is, is it worth it?
I disagree, because we are removing our history and trying to forget our past, but that's my opinion on it.
Fucking how though? How is it "forgetting our past" if we decide hey, maybe we shouldn't have a Confederate memorial in front of a courthouse, theoretically a place of justice? How is it "removing our history" if we decide hey, maybe we shouldn't name sports teams after racist traitors or racist slurs? Come the fuck on.
by Old Tyrannia » Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:25 am
Sure they can.Processes are important. People can't just go about vandalising public property with impunity.
If a statue is controversial and there are people who wish for it to be removed, then there should be an open public discussion where the whole community can put their view forward and the people we elect to make these kinds of decisions for us should have the final say. If any group of disaffected people can simply go about tearing down public monuments they don't like and expect them not to be put back up again, that is bypassing the whole democratic and legal process.
Mobs do not form from nothing. They arise because of certain social conditions, one of which is usually a sense that their grievances are either unheard or unaddressed. There is a great need for spontaneous change, and it would be better if that need is put to tearing down statues than tearing down buildings.
by Kungsu » Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:26 am
Kowani wrote:Mobs do not form from nothing. They arise because of certain social conditions, one of which is usually a sense that their grievances are either unheard or unaddressed. There is a great need for spontaneous change, and it would be better if that need is put to tearing down statues than tearing down buildings.
by Estanglia » Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:26 am
Valrifell wrote:Necroghastia wrote:Fucking how though? How is it "forgetting our past" if we decide hey, maybe we shouldn't have a Confederate memorial in front of a courthouse, theoretically a place of justice? How is it "removing our history" if we decide hey, maybe we shouldn't name sports teams after racist traitors or racist slurs? Come the fuck on.
As we all know, nobody in the former soviet bloc can remember the USSR since they got red of their Lenin and Stalin statues. Tragic, really.
Torrocca wrote:"Your honor, it was not mein fault! I didn't order the systematic genocide of millions of people, it was the twenty kilograms of pure-cut Bavarian cocaine that did it!"
by Kowani » Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:41 am
by Kowani » Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:41 am
Your point was a bad one.
We already don't have the rule of law for much larger things that kill much more people. I don't think people pulling down statues is really going to threaten that.Sure they can.
Not in a society that upholds the rule of law.
I would say their pain is legitimate and unheard and unaddressed, sure. I would also say that their preferred solutions will not solve those grievances in the slightest.Mobs do not form from nothing. They arise because of certain social conditions, one of which is usually a sense that their grievances are either unheard or unaddressed. There is a great need for spontaneous change, and it would be better if that need is put to tearing down statues than tearing down buildings.
So if a mob of Hindu extremists or neo-Nazis decided to pull down a statue of Gandhi- that's okay because "mobs do not form from nothing," "their grievances are either unheard or unaddressed" and "there is a great need for spontaneous change?" Or are only left-wing mobs justified according to you?
Because people have been suffering for centuries, much of it after we realized the suffering was wrong. In practical terms, because lengthening the process gives reactionary elements time to roll them back.Kungsu wrote:Kowani wrote:Mobs do not form from nothing. They arise because of certain social conditions, one of which is usually a sense that their grievances are either unheard or unaddressed. There is a great need for spontaneous change, and it would be better if that need is put to tearing down statues than tearing down buildings.
But why the need for spontaneous change?
Well I would hope not, that's not what it's supposed to do.Tearing down statues won't drastically reduce hate in America.
I will be very honest, anyone who falls for this line because of statues was going to be on that side any way.If anything, it will polarize more people, rallying under the banner of due process, law, and order. It hurts the overall movement and hinders true progress.
Yes, that worked so well for the past half century.We need to work step-by-step, not in great and radical leaps.
Bring society together, don't tear it in half. We need to end the extreme polarization of America by stopping the demonizing of those we do not agree with, and instead try to figure out how we can best work with them to create meaningful progress.
by Kungsu » Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:07 pm
Kowani wrote:You misunderstand. I am on one of the poles. I see the other poll as fundamentally wrong and entirely harmful. I do not want to reconcile with these people, I want to crush their ideas and end their proliferation.
by Nanatsu no Tsuki » Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:08 pm
Vu Den Voc wrote:i Think while we should remove it, we should at least put the logos and statues in a museum
Slava Ukraini
Also: THERNSY!!
Your story isn't over;֍Help save transgender people's lives֍Help for feral cats
Cat with internet access||Supposedly heartless, & a d*ck.||Is maith an t-earra an tsíocháin.||No TGsRIP: Dyakovo & Ashmoria
by Kowani » Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:19 pm
You continue to misunderstand. There is no "compromising" with bigotry, or those who would support it. Not on moral grounds, but on practical ones. Reactionary ideas must be opposed at every turn, and the social conditions which give rise to them abolished. That is how we win.Kungsu wrote:Kowani wrote:You misunderstand. I am on one of the poles. I see the other poll as fundamentally wrong and entirely harmful. I do not want to reconcile with these people, I want to crush their ideas and end their proliferation.
I understand that you find yourself at one of the poles. The point I am trying to make is that polarization will not bring meaningful, good societal change. It forces the other half of society further and further away, increasing the hatred in society we strive to eliminate. It might work if a vast majority of society believed the same, but instead it's a pretty even split.
We have tried your way for the past half century. It has not worked. It has, in fact, been the opposite of productive, and has led to the dismantling off the causes it ostensibly champions.The change you want cannot be won in this way. It will only bring hate, violence, and further hardships for the people who are in need of change. It is counterintuitive. We must temper our idealism with pragmatism.
As great a victory tearing down these statues would be in our hearts, it would only bring about a net negative outcome. We have to be calculating in our actions, or we risk letting the passions of our heart undermine the reality we so desperately need.
by Antarcticanie » Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:31 pm
by Nuroblav » Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:40 pm
by Kowani » Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:41 pm
Nuroblav wrote:It doesn't really serve much purpose. If people want to, then sure. But going round forcing people to do so isn't that good of an idea.
by Nuroblav » Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:45 pm
by Nanatsu no Tsuki » Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:48 pm
Nuroblav wrote:
I know nobody has. I was simply making the point that it wouldn't be. Perhaps I forgot to add often when sort of thing is brought up it tends just to be a diversion from much more important. I'll put that in now.
Slava Ukraini
Also: THERNSY!!
Your story isn't over;֍Help save transgender people's lives֍Help for feral cats
Cat with internet access||Supposedly heartless, & a d*ck.||Is maith an t-earra an tsíocháin.||No TGsRIP: Dyakovo & Ashmoria
by Kowani » Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:56 pm
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:Nuroblav wrote:I know nobody has. I was simply making the point that it wouldn't be. Perhaps I forgot to add often when sort of thing is brought up it tends just to be a diversion from much more important. I'll put that in now.
I think it you read some of the posts from opposing sides in this thread you’ll get a sense that the removal or not does indeed have implications for these parties. I mean, check Kowani’s post on the subjects further up the page. I’m sure you’ll find a dissenting post too and read their reasoning.
It matters to a few.
by Nuroblav » Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:57 pm
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:I think it you read some of the posts from opposing sides in this thread you’ll get a sense that the removal or not does indeed have implications for these parties. I mean, check Kowani’s post on the subjects further up the page. I’m sure you’ll find a dissenting post too and read their reasoning.
It matters to a few.
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