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Why do Some Christians support Trump?

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Manokan Republic
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Postby Manokan Republic » Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:27 am

Salus Maior wrote:
Manokan Republic wrote:Actually Jesus did support fighting people in the middle east and openly advocated taking prisoners of war and slaves in general.


He didn't, actually. That's just absurdly incorrect.


Well, these are just some examples from the bible, finding it from jesus specifically is a bit harder. It should be noted I'm not anti-Christian, but it does say these things in the bible. At that time, slaves were usually previously criminals or prisoners of war, and instead of putting them in prisons which didn't exist, or execute them, they could instead become slaves to avoid the problem of costing money to keep separated from society. Before there were prisons, there was slavery; one could not keep a person out in the open for fear they may reoffend, but couldn't just kill them either. It was expensive to keep someone alive, and as people had little to spare back in those days, it obviously wouldn't be fair to expect a person to keep a person alive just because they tried to steal from you. So instead you could keep them on as slaves, people who would work their own food, possibly even grow it themselves, but who couldn't just up and run away and be free either. Basically, you gave them a chance to be kept alive and given food in exchange for work for people who otherwise couldn't be trusted in society. This naturally was a corrupt system that later evolved in to something worse, but the context makes sense. So the context is different in some forms of slavery vs. others. Slavery was seen as compassionate at that time, to avoid having to just straight up kill criminals for minor offenses and instead letting them work back what they had stolen or keep themselves alive via work and earn the food and resources they took up from someone else.

Slaves
Leviticus 25:44-46 ESV / 33 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
"As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly."- This passage explicitly is saying it's okay to enslave others outside of Israel, but not Israelis. So specifically, it's saying you can enslave your enemies, but not each other. This kind of implies the idea of going out and attacking other people in the middle east, where Jesus was, and then enslaving them.

Titus 2:9-10 ESV / 39 helpful votes
Slaves are to be submissive to their own masters in everything; they are to be well-pleasing, not argumentative, not pilfering, but showing all good faith, so that in everything they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior.

Ephesians 6:5 ESV / 40 helpful votes
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, with a sincere heart, as you would Christ,

Colossians 4:1 ESV / 47 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
Masters, treat your slaves justly and fairly, knowing that you also have a Master in heaven.

1 Peter 2:18 ESV / 39 helpful votes
Servants, be subject to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the unjust.

Exodus 21:20-21 ESV / 29 helpful votes
“When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money.
Last edited by Manokan Republic on Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:33 am, edited 3 times in total.

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The Alma Mater
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Postby The Alma Mater » Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:33 am

Punished UMN wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
He was at the very least baptized. So technically yes.

But then again, so are a lot of people that I wouldn't honestly call a "Catholic vote" as it were. I don't consider Trump the "Catholic vote" either.

^This, it's not an either/or determination.

As long as the USA has a first past the post system and an electoral college, it is.
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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:34 am

Manokan Republic wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
He didn't, actually. That's just absurdly incorrect.


Well, these are just some examples from the bible, finding it from jesus specifically is a bit harder. It should be noted I'm not anti-Christian, but it does say these things in the bible.


That's because Jesus never really directly addresses slavery. And I would argue, furthermore, that the moral philosophy found in the New Testament in regards to humanity's equality before God is actually corrosive to the suppositions of slavery.

I would write more on this, but I honestly have no time to do so and this thread wouldn't be the place to do it.
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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:34 am

The Alma Mater wrote:
Punished UMN wrote:^This, it's not an either/or determination.

As long as the USA has a first past the post system and an electoral college, it is.


Then I would suggest a write-in or third party, personally.

Which is what I'm doing.
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"In any case we clearly see....That some opportune remedy must be found quickly for the misery and wretchedness pressing so unjustly on the majority of the working class...it has come to pass that working men have been surrendered, isolated and helpless, to the hardheartedness of employers and the greed of unchecked competition." -Pope Leo XIII, Rerum Novarum

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Manokan Republic
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Postby Manokan Republic » Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:38 am

Salus Maior wrote:
Manokan Republic wrote:
Well, these are just some examples from the bible, finding it from jesus specifically is a bit harder. It should be noted I'm not anti-Christian, but it does say these things in the bible.


That's because Jesus never really directly addresses slavery. And I would argue, furthermore, that the moral philosophy found in the New Testament in regards to humanity's equality before God is actually corrosive to the suppositions of slavery.

I would write more on this, but I honestly have no time to do so and this thread wouldn't be the place to do it.

The problem rests more so on the context of what a slave is. While today we tend to think of permanent slaves such as sex slaves or african slaves, slavery was more or a temporary thing like indentured servitude reserved for criminals and prisoners of war, and could be seen more so as prisoners with forced labor than innocent people born in to it, however it doesn't apply to literally every situation. Finding a direct quote I know is from jesus and not just from God, of whom is also jesus, is going to take more time, but I know he mentions it quite a bit. There is also Moses laws that come right after the 10 commandments on slaves, about how to treat slaves. This is part of the foundational laws by God, as decreed by Moses.


Not Peace, but a Sword
34 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 And a person's enemies will be those of his own household. 37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it."

Not entirely sure if Jesus, Titus 2:9-10 "Slaves are to be submissive to their own masters in everything; they are to be well-pleasing, not argumentative, not pilfering, but showing all good faith, so that in everything they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior."

"Slaves, obey in everything those who are your earthly masters, not by way of eye-service, as people-pleasers, but with sincerity of heart, fearing the Lord. Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ. "

"When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies. This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby."


Statement by jesus: "That servant who knows his master’s will but does not get ready or follow his instructions will be beaten with many blows. But the one who unknowingly does things worthy of punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and from him who has been entrusted with much, even more will be demanded."
Last edited by Manokan Republic on Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:31 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:42 am

Manokan Republic wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
That's because Jesus never really directly addresses slavery. And I would argue, furthermore, that the moral philosophy found in the New Testament in regards to humanity's equality before God is actually corrosive to the suppositions of slavery.

I would write more on this, but I honestly have no time to do so and this thread wouldn't be the place to do it.

The problem rests more so on the context of what a slave is. While today we tend to think of permanent slaves such as sex slaves or african slaves, slavery was more or a temporary thing like indentured servitude reserved for criminals and prisoners of war, and could be seen more so as prisoners with forced labor than innocent people born in to it, however it doesn't apply to literally every situation. Finding a direct quote I know is from jesus and not just from God, of whom is also jesus, is going to take more time, but I know he mentions it quite a bit.


...Again, you're not going to find it.

I've literally read through the entire Gospels multiple times.

As for Roman slavery, it was still based in an idea of inequality and fraught with cruelty, even if it was different from chattel slavery.
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The Alma Mater
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Postby The Alma Mater » Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:42 am

Salus Maior wrote:
The Alma Mater wrote:As long as the USA has a first past the post system and an electoral college, it is.


Then I would suggest a write-in or third party, personally.

Which is what I'm doing.

While I strongly support the USA having more than 2 parties that matter; especially with 2 utterly unfit candidates running, I fear that that will be wasted vote with zero impact on the outcome.

Still, kudos for not being part of the herd.
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Postby Pope Saint Peter the Apostle » Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:42 am

Odreria wrote:
Pope Saint Peter the Apostle wrote:Well, if Jesus never said anything in support/opposition to X, you cannot support/oppose X as a Christian.

Also, remember that Jesus Never Said ANYTHING About Felony Home Invasion, so Christians cannot have an opinion on it either, or they're fake Christians.

I think you greatly misunderstand the nature of Christianity.

The comment was made in jest, hence the link to the satirical website Babylon Bee.
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Postby New Mercatia » Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:45 am

Salus Maior wrote:Biden is a cafeteria Catholic, a nominal Catholic. A fully conscientious Catholic would never so enthusiastically back the Democrat position on abortion.


He’s repeatedly said he morally disagrees with abortion, but that it would be wrong to impose his worldview on others by codifying it in law. That’s not enthusiastic backing.

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Postby Lower Nubia » Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:46 am

People who suffer from the Dunning-Kruger effect, while Trump confirms their biases about what they "know".

It's that simple.
Last edited by Lower Nubia on Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:50 am

The Alma Mater wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
Then I would suggest a write-in or third party, personally.

Which is what I'm doing.

While I strongly support the USA having more than 2 parties that matter; especially with 2 utterly unfit candidates running, I fear that that will be wasted vote with zero impact on the outcome.

Still, kudos for not being part of the herd.


I figure it's better to potentially toss a vote than toss principle.

Furthermore, I think this often-stated narrative that third parties are automatically invalid is a false one that's propagated only to serve the interests of the two ruling parties. I can easily point to points in American history where there were more than two party candidates in the running for the Presidency, and in fact were key in monumental presidential races. So no, third parties aren't automatically invalid simply for being third parties, they're simply not voted for because the common consciousness is that they won't win. And the two parties are happy to keep the people in that mindset.
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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:51 am

New Mercatia wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:Biden is a cafeteria Catholic, a nominal Catholic. A fully conscientious Catholic would never so enthusiastically back the Democrat position on abortion.


He’s repeatedly said he morally disagrees with abortion, but that it would be wrong to impose his worldview on others by codifying it in law. That’s not enthusiastic backing.


Regardless, he's toe-ing the party line.
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"In any case we clearly see....That some opportune remedy must be found quickly for the misery and wretchedness pressing so unjustly on the majority of the working class...it has come to pass that working men have been surrendered, isolated and helpless, to the hardheartedness of employers and the greed of unchecked competition." -Pope Leo XIII, Rerum Novarum

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Postby Lower Nubia » Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:55 am

Salus Maior wrote:
The Alma Mater wrote:While I strongly support the USA having more than 2 parties that matter; especially with 2 utterly unfit candidates running, I fear that that will be wasted vote with zero impact on the outcome.

Still, kudos for not being part of the herd.


I figure it's better to potentially toss a vote than toss principle.

Furthermore, I think this often-stated narrative that third parties are automatically invalid is a false one that's propagated only to serve the interests of the two ruling parties. I can easily point to points in American history where there were more than two party candidates in the running for the Presidency, and in fact were key in monumental presidential races. So no, third parties aren't automatically invalid simply for being third parties, they're simply not voted for because the common consciousness is that they won't win. And the two parties are happy to keep the people in that mindset.


It is.

A Christian cannot support a candidate that extends abortion rights, nor a candidate that embodies adultery, deceit, or disavowing of the poor.

If you cannot logically support both, then the options are: Don't vote, or vote for neither.

Not voting is an abstention which supports the status quo, i.e., the incumbent, who as we've already said, is not logical to support.

The only conclusion is a third party, or casting a "spoiled" ballot ( in the UK) or a write-in (the US).
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Postby South Acren » Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:58 am

Because politics and religion do not need to mix. This may confuse some so let me explain.

I do not let my religious beliefs interfere with my political beliefs as it is not what our FFs intended. I "support" Orange Man due to my inherent dislike of good ol Joe. I don't support Trump for my religious beliefs and I don't disapprove of Joe due to them either. I don't think they should be involved in politics and thats it.
Last edited by South Acren on Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Kowani » Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:58 am

Salus Maior wrote:
The Alma Mater wrote:While I strongly support the USA having more than 2 parties that matter; especially with 2 utterly unfit candidates running, I fear that that will be wasted vote with zero impact on the outcome.

Still, kudos for not being part of the herd.


I figure it's better to potentially toss a vote than toss principle.

Furthermore, I think this often-stated narrative that third parties are automatically invalid is a false one that's propagated only to serve the interests of the two ruling parties. I can easily point to points in American history where there were more than two party candidates in the running for the Presidency, and in fact were key in monumental presidential races. So no, third parties aren't automatically invalid simply for being third parties, they're simply not voted for because the common consciousness is that they won't win. And the two parties are happy to keep the people in that mindset.

Well, no. A FPTP system mathematically guarantees a 2 party system over time.
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Lower Nubia
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Postby Lower Nubia » Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:00 am

South Acren wrote:Because politics and religion do not need to mix. This may confuse some so let me explain.

I do not let my religious beliefs interfere with my political beliefs as it is not what our FFs intended. I "support" Orange Man due to my inherent dislike of good ol Joe. I don't support Trump for my religious beliefs and I don't disapprove of Joe due to them either. I don't think they should be involved in politics and thats it.


So you'll vote Orange man even when you say you don't support them?
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Postby South Acren » Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:11 am

Lower Nubia wrote:So you'll vote Orange man even when you say you don't support them?

I quote-unquote "support" Trump due to the fact that he's who i originally supported and I don't agree with some most of Joe's ideas. Will i vote? Probably not. I don't like either, but as terrible as trump is, I will not support biden.
Its an example of im not supporting one because i dislike him more then i dislike the other. Terrible way to choose? Yup. Will i vote? Doubtful. Id rather neither.

But to the original topic, I don't let my religious beliefs cloud my judgement too much Deus Vult Heretics as the way I see it, everyone has their choice for what they believe and if people want something that I disagree with, then they can do it as, for better or worse, humans have the gift of free will.
Last edited by South Acren on Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:12 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Old Tyrannia » Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:14 am

South Acren wrote:Because politics and religion do not need to mix. This may confuse some so let me explain.

I do not let my religious beliefs interfere with my political beliefs as it is not what our FFs intended. I "support" Orange Man due to my inherent dislike of good ol Joe. I don't support Trump for my religious beliefs and I don't disapprove of Joe due to them either. I don't think they should be involved in politics and thats it.

As a Christian your ethics should be informed by your faith. If your ethics are informed by your faith, and your ethics inform your political opinions, then your religious beliefs are of course influencing your political beliefs. If you claim to be a Christian but your politics have nothing to do with your religion, then something has gone wrong somewhere along the line.
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Postby Lower Nubia » Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:16 am

South Acren wrote:
Lower Nubia wrote:So you'll vote Orange man even when you say you don't support them?

I quote-unquote "support" Trump due to the fact that he's who i originally supported and I don't agree with some most of Joe's ideas. Will i vote? Probably not. I don't like either, but as terrible as trump is, I will not support biden.
Its an example of im not supporting one because i dislike him more then i dislike the other. Terrible way to choose? Yup. Will i vote? Doubtful. Id rather neither.

But to the original topic, I don't let my religious beliefs cloud my judgement too much Deus Vult Heretics as the way I see it, everyone has their choice for what they believe and if people want something that I disagree with, then they can do it as, for better or worse, humans have the gift of free will.


So what secular reasons can you give against Joe, I'm curious.
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Postby Lower Nubia » Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:17 am

Old Tyrannia wrote:
South Acren wrote:Because politics and religion do not need to mix. This may confuse some so let me explain.

I do not let my religious beliefs interfere with my political beliefs as it is not what our FFs intended. I "support" Orange Man due to my inherent dislike of good ol Joe. I don't support Trump for my religious beliefs and I don't disapprove of Joe due to them either. I don't think they should be involved in politics and thats it.

As a Christian your ethics should be informed by your faith. If your ethics are informed by your faith, and your ethics inform your political opinions, then your religious beliefs are of course influencing your political beliefs. If you claim to be a Christian but your politics have nothing to do with your religion, then something has gone wrong somewhere along the line.


I know right. How can your religion which you believe to be truth not influence your choices?
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Postby Nedvia » Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:25 am

Ifreann wrote:Because he promises to help them ban abortion and gay marriage and Muslims. The Christian right in America doesn't use their religion to inform their politics so much as they use politics to enforce their religion.


Trump has never said anything in opposition to gay marriage. He initiated a ban on travel from some Muslim majority nations, but not on Muslims specifically.
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Postby Kowani » Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:28 am

Nedvia wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Because he promises to help them ban abortion and gay marriage and Muslims. The Christian right in America doesn't use their religion to inform their politics so much as they use politics to enforce their religion.


Trump has never said anything in opposition to gay marriage. He initiated a ban on travel from some Muslim majority nations, but not on Muslims specifically.

I too remember when Trump called it a "muslim ban" before being forced to backpedal.
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Postby Geneviev » Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:29 am

Kowani wrote:
Nedvia wrote:
Trump has never said anything in opposition to gay marriage. He initiated a ban on travel from some Muslim majority nations, but not on Muslims specifically.

I too remember when Trump called it a "muslim ban" before being forced to backpedal.

Which is not Christian, to be very clear.
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Lower Nubia
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Lower Nubia » Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:29 am

Nedvia wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Because he promises to help them ban abortion and gay marriage and Muslims. The Christian right in America doesn't use their religion to inform their politics so much as they use politics to enforce their religion.


Trump has never said anything in opposition to gay marriage. He initiated a ban on travel from some Muslim majority nations, but not on Muslims specifically.


Then why make the ban on those countries?
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Kowani
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:32 am

Geneviev wrote:
Kowani wrote:I too remember when Trump called it a "muslim ban" before being forced to backpedal.

Which is not Christian, to be very clear.

Well, yes.
I don't believe Trump is Christian at all.
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