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Are conservative parties hateful?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Are conservative parties hateful? 「Yes or No」

Yes, we should pay more attention to right-wing mainstreaming hatred (The Year of "Yes")
106
39%
Maybe, but not to the extent some people claim (Baby baby baby, maybe maybe maybe)
52
19%
No, Sanghyeok's brain has been corrupted by pudding (No, no, no, I love you!)
111
41%
 
Total votes : 269

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Empirical Switzerland
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Postby Empirical Switzerland » Mon Oct 26, 2020 2:58 pm

The Orion Islands wrote:As a proud Catholic Republican, I find a party that wants the best for all Americans. We don't have hate towards any group, but instead a desire for all Americans to be able to chart their own course, with a small government that only interferes when it is necessary to keep someone from unnatural harm. It is our desire to create a color blind America. We set the slaves free. We fought for decades against Southern Democrat obstructionism in the struggle for civil rights. We want a just America. Calling us racist is just a scare tactic, used by the left to keep blacks and Hispanics from discovering what we really are and how we can help them.

100% Agreed.
Last edited by Empirical Switzerland on Mon Oct 26, 2020 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The Emerald Legion
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Postby The Emerald Legion » Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:12 pm

Albrenia wrote:
The Emerald Legion wrote:
Not really. They stayed right where they were because it's not just religious people in government they want gone. It's religion period. You're allowed to observe your religion insofar as it doesn't conflict with standards largely drafted by an irreligious authority. Which means in most cases you can't actually practice your religion in any real way.

Much like if I tried to tell you that you're allowed to be gay, but you can only have heterosexual sex, you would call foul.


I'll agree that some of my more enthusiastic irreligious fellows do indeed take it too far, most of us secularists fully support such things as being able to wear religious garb (minus face concealing stuff where that can cause problems, in some cases), take religious time off for prayer or particular events, talk openly about their beliefs, and so on.

If your religion involves things which are illegal for the rest of us though, that is just too bad. You don't get to break the law because your religion says it's ok. You must indeed suffer a witch to live.

Unless you get enough support to change the law I guess, but then it's not a matter of 'only Christians can burn witches', it's a case of witch burning being legal.


And yet multiple times now Catholics have been excoriated for being catholic.

It's not about things being illegal. It's about people deciding they don't like something even if it's not necessarily illegal and imposing their values on them.
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Albrenia
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Postby Albrenia » Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:24 pm

The Emerald Legion wrote:
Albrenia wrote:
I'll agree that some of my more enthusiastic irreligious fellows do indeed take it too far, most of us secularists fully support such things as being able to wear religious garb (minus face concealing stuff where that can cause problems, in some cases), take religious time off for prayer or particular events, talk openly about their beliefs, and so on.

If your religion involves things which are illegal for the rest of us though, that is just too bad. You don't get to break the law because your religion says it's ok. You must indeed suffer a witch to live.

Unless you get enough support to change the law I guess, but then it's not a matter of 'only Christians can burn witches', it's a case of witch burning being legal.


And yet multiple times now Catholics have been excoriated for being catholic.

It's not about things being illegal. It's about people deciding they don't like something even if it's not necessarily illegal and imposing their values on them.


Although any such instances of that occurring are most certainly bad no matter which side they fall, I'd argue that the right is far quicker to do such things.

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Necroghastia
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Postby Necroghastia » Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:26 pm

The Orion Islands wrote:As a proud Catholic Republican, I find a party that wants the best for all Americans. We don't have hate towards any group, but instead a desire for all Americans to be able to chart their own course, with a small government that only interferes when it is necessary to keep someone from unnatural harm. It is our desire to create a color blind America. We set the slaves free. We fought for decades against Southern Democrat obstructionism in the struggle for civil rights. We want a just America. Calling us racist is just a scare tactic, used by the left to keep blacks and Hispanics from discovering what we really are and how we can help them.

You do realize that the Republicans were the left-wingers and the Democrats the conservatives back then, right? Right?
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Empirical Switzerland
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Postby Empirical Switzerland » Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:28 pm

Necroghastia wrote:
The Orion Islands wrote:As a proud Catholic Republican, I find a party that wants the best for all Americans. We don't have hate towards any group, but instead a desire for all Americans to be able to chart their own course, with a small government that only interferes when it is necessary to keep someone from unnatural harm. It is our desire to create a color blind America. We set the slaves free. We fought for decades against Southern Democrat obstructionism in the struggle for civil rights. We want a just America. Calling us racist is just a scare tactic, used by the left to keep blacks and Hispanics from discovering what we really are and how we can help them.

You do realize that the Republicans were the left-wingers and the Democrats the conservatives back then, right? Right?

Nonetheless, it still was the republican party that freed them.
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Sicilian Imperial-Capitalist Empire
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Postby Sicilian Imperial-Capitalist Empire » Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:29 pm

Celritannia wrote:
Sicilian Imperial-Capitalist Empire wrote:If conservative parties are hateful then so are the liberal parties. I've never been a conservative, so I can't speak for the right, but I know as a former Trotskyist that the left definitely has some pretty big hatred towards certain groups. While the right is more racial in their hatred, the left has equal amounts of hatred, just for class rather than race. Just as the far-right has a deep hatred for Jews, so too does the far-left have a deep hatred for the rich.


Interesting...
You mention "liberal Parties" then go on an talk about left-wing parties.

I was using the American definition there. Apologies for any confusion.
Broader Confederate States wrote:
Sicilian Imperial-Capitalist Empire wrote:If conservative parties are hateful then so are the liberal parties. I've never been a conservative, so I can't speak for the right, but I know as a former Trotskyist that the left definitely has some pretty big hatred towards certain groups. While the right is more racial in their hatred, the left has equal amounts of hatred, just for class rather than race. Just as the far-right has a deep hatred for Jews, so too does the far-left have a deep hatred for the rich.

and if you believe in a race-privilege connection (which i can't really comment on, and that's not my intention anyway), it circles right back around.

Eh, that's more of an American thing, and even so, isn't very relevant to the left as a whole.

Regardless, this isn't the point of discussion, so I too will not further comment on this matter.
Page wrote:
Sicilian Imperial-Capitalist Empire wrote:If conservative parties are hateful then so are the liberal parties. I've never been a conservative, so I can't speak for the right, but I know as a former Trotskyist that the left definitely has some pretty big hatred towards certain groups. While the right is more racial in their hatred, the left has equal amounts of hatred, just for class rather than race. Just as the far-right has a deep hatred for Jews, so too does the far-left have a deep hatred for the rich.


Almost as if there's a difference, huh. If I could just wildly speculate, maybe that Jews aren't destroying the planet and making millions of people suffer but the rich are.

While I'm inclined to agree with you, this isn't exactly the point of discussion.
Sanghyeok wrote:
Page wrote:
Almost as if there's a difference, huh. If I could just wildly speculate, maybe that Jews aren't destroying the planet and making millions of people suffer but the rich are.


And furthermore, the left doesn't hate the rich, it simply wants to remove the existence of such classes and remove exploitation.

While that might stand true for older forms of leftism, more modern (and arguably mainstream) types of leftism, particularly in the US, certainly have some level of hatred for the rich.
Kiu Ghesik wrote:
Sanghyeok wrote:
According to Marx it is not the rich who are bad and the proletariat who are good. I believe it was even Marx who acknowledges that if the some of the individual proletariat were to take the place of the rich (not seizing the means of production, which is different), they too would begin exploitation. So the far-left doesn't hate the rich so much as it wants society to change to remove the exploitation that they do.

Time to appropriate this thread and turn it into Marxism III.

Gotta keep seizing the means of thread production, comrade.
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
Sanghyeok wrote:
And furthermore, the left doesn't hate the rich, it simply wants to remove the existence of such classes and remove exploitation.


Are you sure, 100%, that liberalism doesn’t engage in exploitation too? Ever?

Liberalism is not a good representation of the left. It is centrism with the costume of socialism and leftism.
Saiwania wrote:Well, why the assumption that hatred is a flaw or bad to begin with? I'd say it is better to be with what you stand for than against it. If you're too empathetic or compassionate, that is inherently a position of weakness. It is like leaving yourself open for an attack during a fight. What people should know best is to go with their tribe or faction and stay within it.

Y'know, I really want to debate your racialist ideas of "every race should just keep to themselves," but this isn't the thread for that, so I'm just gonna move on.
Imperium of Dragonia wrote:Ah yes, the "anyone who values common sense, morality, and basic fucking human decency is a bigot" thread. This is only the hundredth one in the past five years.
Anyways, no, they aren't hateful. They are perceived as hateful by people who have a very narrow viewpoint and are utterly unwilling to see what the other side has to say. The same people who call conservative parties hateful also crack down on wrong-think has more layers of irony than the file sizes of Hunter Biden's laptop.

Conservative is a very broad term outside of America, y'know.

Also no need to bring American politics into a global thread.
The Orion Islands wrote:As a proud Catholic Republican, I find a party that wants the best for all Americans. We don't have hate towards any group, but instead a desire for all Americans to be able to chart their own course, with a small government that only interferes when it is necessary to keep someone from unnatural harm. It is our desire to create a color blind America. We set the slaves free. We fought for decades against Southern Democrat obstructionism in the struggle for civil rights. We want a just America. Calling us racist is just a scare tactic, used by the left to keep blacks and Hispanics from discovering what we really are and how we can help them.

See above.
Last edited by Sicilian Imperial-Capitalist Empire on Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Asardia
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Postby Asardia » Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:29 pm

Empirical Switzerland wrote:
Necroghastia wrote:You do realize that the Republicans were the left-wingers and the Democrats the conservatives back then, right? Right?

Nonetheless, it still was the republican party that freed them.


Republicans today oppose equal rights legislation. How many current day Republicans would support the Radical Republicans in the post Civil War era?
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Coradortodos
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Postby Coradortodos » Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:30 pm

I mean The Republican Party has trump. So YES

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Telconi
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Postby Telconi » Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:30 pm

Albrenia wrote:
The Emerald Legion wrote:
And yet multiple times now Catholics have been excoriated for being catholic.

It's not about things being illegal. It's about people deciding they don't like something even if it's not necessarily illegal and imposing their values on them.


Although any such instances of that occurring are most certainly bad no matter which side they fall, I'd argue that the right is far quicker to do such things.


Not with any basis in reality you wouldn't.
Last edited by Telconi on Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Albrenia
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Postby Albrenia » Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:31 pm

Empirical Switzerland wrote:
Necroghastia wrote:You do realize that the Republicans were the left-wingers and the Democrats the conservatives back then, right? Right?

Nonetheless, it still was the republican party that freed them.


I don't see how the name is more important than the political beliefs.

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Necroghastia
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Postby Necroghastia » Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:32 pm

Kexholm Karelia wrote:Conservative parties are built on love,

Sure, that's why they're the ones who consistently advocate that LGBT people get treated as second-class citizens and can be refused services up to and including EMS because muh religion.
loving God, Jesus,

Things that have no place in government policy. Also, that's kinda exclusionist of you.
our country, liberty, and equality of oppertunity

Again, the party of "the icky transes can't serve in the military" and "women shouldn't be able to make medical decisions" billing itself as that is laughable.
Far leftist parties on the other hand are built on hate, every single far left party that has ever come to power has managed to create a genocide and kill millions of people,

Define "far-left," because...
and the world’s most evil organization today, the Chinese Communist Party, continues to be cheered on by its overseas useful idiots

The CCP is far from far-left. Also, who the fuck cheers it on other than your imaginary strawmen and the people who do business there - largely corporations who tend to benefit from conservative policies?
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Albrenia
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Postby Albrenia » Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:35 pm

Telconi wrote:
Albrenia wrote:
Although any such instances of that occurring are most certainly bad no matter which side they fall, I'd argue that the right is far quicker to do such things.


Not with any basis in reality you wouldn't.


I don't see how the inane 'SJW' culture of recent years outweighs the immense pressure placed on atheists, homosexuals, transgender peoples, minority religions and immigrants from the right wing.

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Unstoppable Empire of Doom
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Postby Unstoppable Empire of Doom » Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:38 pm

The fruit party will insist all vegetables are morally corrupted, while the vegetable party will claim that fruits are trying to subvert the constitution. The reality is they are both trying to do the best for the grocery store but feel that in order to do so they must band together to defeat "the enemy". Meanwhile the average customer wants to make lunch with a little of both but has been forced to eat only vegetables because thats what the majority want. Sadly that includes onion, which nobody wants but is in the vegetable party purely because it is opposed to fruits.

Suffice to say, yes, that is the system currently in place.
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Old Tyrannia
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Postby Old Tyrannia » Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:41 pm

People typically become conservatives because they want to protect something, and therefore have a vested interest in the status quo. Granted, the things that they wish to protect are sometimes negative things, and unfortunately within mainstream conservative parties the power is generally held principally by people whose principal interest is in preserving their own socioeconomic status, but most people who form the rank-and-file members and supporters of conservative political parties are not particularly wealthy and therefore motivated by other things. It's the left that's essentially driven by anger and resentment, since people who pursue left-wing politics generally do so because there's something they dislike and wish to change, not something they want to protect. Sometimes their anger and resentment may be justified, but often it's excessive and misdirected.

Politics in general has become more aggressive and hateful in recent years, and if it's the right that has led the way in this it's largely because hate stems from fear and people become fearful when they find themselves losing control of their future. The world has changed rapidly in recent years and the main beneficiaries have been "rainbow capitalists" and the cynical alliance of social progressivism and neoliberal capitalism. Conservatives and actual socialists have both been losers. It's not particularly surprising in a world where conservative values are increasingly under attack that those who hold them would become increasingly defensive, and it's not like the political left doesn't exploit fear and hatred to forward its own agenda when it can.
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Sanghyeok
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Postby Sanghyeok » Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:48 pm

Empirical Switzerland wrote:
Necroghastia wrote:You do realize that the Republicans were the left-wingers and the Democrats the conservatives back then, right? Right?

Nonetheless, it still was the republican party that freed them.


Parties change over time, and now the Republicans are the party of clear hate, and Democrats the party of "we don't hate as much as long as you have some money".
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Empirical Switzerland
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Postby Empirical Switzerland » Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:50 pm

Coradortodos wrote:I mean The Republican Party has trump. So YES

Well the democrats have Joe Biden. So YES
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Telconi
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Postby Telconi » Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:54 pm

Albrenia wrote:
Telconi wrote:
Not with any basis in reality you wouldn't.


I don't see how the inane 'SJW' culture of recent years outweighs the immense pressure placed on atheists, homosexuals, transgender peoples, minority religions and immigrants from the right wing.


The fact that you agree with their ideology doesn't make them any less zealous in enforcing it upon other people.
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Empirical Switzerland
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Postby Empirical Switzerland » Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:56 pm

Sanghyeok wrote:
Empirical Switzerland wrote:Nonetheless, it still was the republican party that freed them.


Parties change over time, and now the Republicans are the party of clear hate, and Democrats the party of "we don't hate as much as long as you have some money".

How are republicans the party of 'clear hate'? I live in America, I know tons of Republicans as I live in Florida, and none of them are racist or sexist in any way, our governmental officials are not racist or sexist, and to say that our party is 'the party of hate', is just plain wrong.
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Sanghyeok
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Postby Sanghyeok » Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:58 pm

Empirical Switzerland wrote:
Coradortodos wrote:I mean The Republican Party has trump. So YES

Well the democrats have Joe Biden. So YES


Biden is a war criminal and has passed terrible legislation, but Trump is a war criminal, bigot, has passed terrible legislation, has openly called for and encouraged violence against ethnic minorities and political opposition, and began policies that hurt ethnic and religious minorities, LGBT persons and more. Not even close.
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Albrenia
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Postby Albrenia » Mon Oct 26, 2020 4:00 pm

Empirical Switzerland wrote:
Coradortodos wrote:I mean The Republican Party has trump. So YES

Well the democrats have Joe Biden. So YES


How does the democrats having Joe Biden make conservative parties hateful? Should you say, so 'No'?

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Sanghyeok
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Postby Sanghyeok » Mon Oct 26, 2020 4:00 pm

Empirical Switzerland wrote:
Sanghyeok wrote:
Parties change over time, and now the Republicans are the party of clear hate, and Democrats the party of "we don't hate as much as long as you have some money".

How are republicans the party of 'clear hate'? I live in America, I know tons of Republicans as I live in Florida, and none of them are racist or sexist in any way, our governmental officials are not racist or sexist, and to say that our party is 'the party of hate', is just plain wrong.


We can start with this one:
“While the Republican Party approved this resolution, notably, it did not denounce organizations that promote antisemitism, Islamophobia, neo-Nazis, anti-LGBT sentiment or racism. It only criticized the SPLC for challenging hate groups that have found a place in the Republican Party.

“From the moment that Donald Trump ran for president, he welcomed the support of hate groups like the Family Research Council and the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR). Once in office, Trump actively hired and consulted alumni and allies from FAIR, an anti-immigrant hate group that has ties to white supremacist groups and eugenicists. They include Julie Kirchner, Kris Kobach, Jeff Sessions, and most notably Stephen Miller.

“The resolution comes at a moment when Trump will argue at the Republican National Convention that he will combat hate and bigotry. In addition to this resolution giving comfort to hate groups, we have recently seen other evidence of hate groups and extremists making inroads into the Republican Party. Some in the party welcome QAnon into the GOP’s fold. The indictment of Stephen Bannon in recent days is a reminder of the extremism that he sought to embed in the Republican Party. And the SPLC has shined a light on OANN’s Jack Posobiec, a reporter at Trump’s favorite 'news' network, who is aligned with white supremacy and has used his platform to further hate speech and propaganda.

“Now, Trump and the GOP are doubling down with QAnon and partnering with hate groups that are seeking to muzzle anyone who stands in their way of furthering their agenda and hurting communities that we care about.

“But we’re not going to back down from calling out white supremacists and hate groups or pushing back against their dehumanizing rhetoric.”


https://www.splcenter.org/presscenter/s ... resolution
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大プロレタリアート魔法革命万 統一戦線万歳 どんな時も、その眩しさを覚えていた
Magical socialist paradise headed by an immortal, tea-loving and sometimes childish Chairwoman who happens to be the younger Ōmiya sister

Mini custard puddings
And fresh poured Darjeeling
Strawberry parfait so sweet and appealing,
Little soft plushies and baths in hot springs
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Telconi
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Postby Telconi » Mon Oct 26, 2020 4:01 pm

Sanghyeok wrote:
Empirical Switzerland wrote:Well the democrats have Joe Biden. So YES


Biden is a war criminal and has passed terrible legislation, but Trump is a war criminal, bigot, has passed terrible legislation, has openly called for and encouraged violence against ethnic minorities and political opposition, and began policies that hurt ethnic and religious minorities, LGBT persons and more. Not even close.


"Biden's less hateful because I also hate the people he hates!"
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-Freedom For Security Social Transactions
-Unnecessary Taxes
-Excessively Specific Government Programs
-Foreign Entanglements
-Religious Extremism
-Fascists Masquerading as "Social Justice Warriors"

"The Constitution is NOT an instrument for the government to restrain the people,it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government-- lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." ~ Patrick Henry

User avatar
Sanghyeok
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5030
Founded: Dec 29, 2016
Democratic Socialists

Postby Sanghyeok » Mon Oct 26, 2020 4:01 pm

Here's how The Southern Poverty Law Center defines a hate group.

It is, they say, “an organization that — based on its official statements or principles, the statements of its leaders, or its activities — has beliefs or practices that attack or malign an entire class of people, typically for their immutable characteristics.” That definition is offered preparatory to an explosive question:

Is the Republican Party a hate group?

Granted, in its "official statements or principles," the party doesn't meet the SPLC standard. Its activities and the statements of its leaders are, however, another matter.
Consider that last week began with the party's leader, Donald Trump, demanding that four progressive congresswomen, four women of color, four Americans, "go back" to the countries they came from. It devolved from that low point to a lower one, as an overwhelmingly white audience of Trump supporters booed the mention of one of the women, Somalia-born Rep. Ilhan Omar. "Send her back!" they chanted.


https://www.seattletimes.com/opinion/is ... ate-group/
万国の労働者よ、団結せよ!
大プロレタリアート魔法革命万 統一戦線万歳 どんな時も、その眩しさを覚えていた
Magical socialist paradise headed by an immortal, tea-loving and sometimes childish Chairwoman who happens to be the younger Ōmiya sister

Mini custard puddings
And fresh poured Darjeeling
Strawberry parfait so sweet and appealing,
Little soft plushies and baths in hot springs
These are a few of my favourite things

User avatar
Necroghastia
Senator
 
Posts: 4211
Founded: May 11, 2019
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Necroghastia » Mon Oct 26, 2020 4:02 pm

Telconi wrote:
Sanghyeok wrote:
Biden is a war criminal and has passed terrible legislation, but Trump is a war criminal, bigot, has passed terrible legislation, has openly called for and encouraged violence against ethnic minorities and political opposition, and began policies that hurt ethnic and religious minorities, LGBT persons and more. Not even close.


"Biden's less hateful because I also hate the people he hates!"
Telconi wrote:
Albrenia wrote:
I don't see how the inane 'SJW' culture of recent years outweighs the immense pressure placed on atheists, homosexuals, transgender peoples, minority religions and immigrants from the right wing.


The fact that you agree with their ideology doesn't make them any less zealous in enforcing it upon other people.

dang dude even for you these are obvious dodges
Last edited by Necroghastia on Mon Oct 26, 2020 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Pronouns: she/her

User avatar
Sanghyeok
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5030
Founded: Dec 29, 2016
Democratic Socialists

Postby Sanghyeok » Mon Oct 26, 2020 4:03 pm

Telconi wrote:
Sanghyeok wrote:
Biden is a war criminal and has passed terrible legislation, but Trump is a war criminal, bigot, has passed terrible legislation, has openly called for and encouraged violence against ethnic minorities and political opposition, and began policies that hurt ethnic and religious minorities, LGBT persons and more. Not even close.


"Biden's less hateful because I also hate the people he hates!"


I have many reasons to dislike Biden- mostly because I see him as the face of classical Neoliberalism- but I cannot honestly argue that he hates any group.
万国の労働者よ、団結せよ!
大プロレタリアート魔法革命万 統一戦線万歳 どんな時も、その眩しさを覚えていた
Magical socialist paradise headed by an immortal, tea-loving and sometimes childish Chairwoman who happens to be the younger Ōmiya sister

Mini custard puddings
And fresh poured Darjeeling
Strawberry parfait so sweet and appealing,
Little soft plushies and baths in hot springs
These are a few of my favourite things

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