How To Fix The Left's Image

[Kubra]

When you hear the word "left" here, people tend to associate it with evil, atheist, God-hating, ulema-persecuting, CCP-supported commies involved in the sadistic 1965 killing of 6 military generals. So yeah, it's pretty difficult to fix the left's image here.

Oh no poor generals, they won't get to join in on the systematic killing of a half million people. And they're going to miss the fun in east timor!

[Iscoria]

I consider myself part of The Left.

The best way forward for The Left would be to distance itself from SJW/identity politics and align itself with the People’s Republic of China. Even though the Chinese state isn’t perfect, it’s the most successful Communist country in history and it has the best chance of leading the transition to post-scarcity And post-capitalism. If not China, then who will stand up against the capitalist and imperial powers of the west?

The way forward is clear, as far as I’m concerned.

China
Be """"""communist"""""" with chinese characteristics
Also china:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... llionaires
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... llionaires
https://c21stleft.com/2019/05/27/persec ... esistance/
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/01/22/asia ... index.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... e_equality Fucking united states has more equal income distribution
And in the meantime they have the 996 working hours (9am to 9pm 6 days a week), awful working rights and conditions, an education system strictly connected to the local province (meaning that if your province is poor bye bye good education), doesn't even have a fucking pension system, persecution of political dissidents, no free elections, extreme censorship that is expanding internationally, prisoners organ harvesting, persecution of minorities with concentration camps (which later get rented to approved chinese companies) and mass espionage.

How in the fucking world that's even called even only remotely socialist I have no absolutely fucking clue

edit because the fucked up stuff about china is so long I even forgot:
-border disputes with every each neighbouring country
-is trying to expand into southern waters by building islands and patrolling inside territorial waters of other nations.
-aggressive and hostile international relations, which is basically reacting with anger and threats every single time they see something that even mildly doesn't align with their policies. See the threats they sent to Sweden and the Czech Republic.
-they loan impossible high amounts of money to with very high interests to developing nations. When they inevitably fail to pay them and their balance has been crippled, they extort trade deals, exclusive economic areas, public businesses, territory and infrastructure for their military bases. That's basically what we europeans did with africa a couple of centuries ago.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

I consider myself part of The Left.

The best way forward for The Left would be to distance itself from SJW/identity politics and align itself with the People’s Republic of China. Even though the Chinese state isn’t perfect, it’s the most successful Communist country in history and it has the best chance of leading the transition to post-scarcity And post-capitalism. If not China, then who will stand up against the capitalist and imperial powers of the west?

The way forward is clear, as far as I’m concerned.

China
Be """"""communist"""""" with chinese characteristics
Also china:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... llionaires
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... llionaires
https://c21stleft.com/2019/05/27/persec ... esistance/
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/01/22/asia ... index.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... e_equality Fucking united states has more equal income distribution
And in the meantime they have the 996 working hours (9am to 9pm 6 days a week), awful working rights and conditions, an education system strictly connected to the local province (meaning that if your province is poor bye bye good education), doesn't even have a fucking pension system, persecution of political dissidents, no free elections, extreme censorship that is expanding internationally, prisoners organ harvesting, persecution of minorities with concentration camps (which later get rented to approved chinese companies) and mass espionage.

How in the fucking world that's even called even only remotely socialist I have no absuletely fucking clue

Well high rate of government ownership ... in that way, and only that way, somewhat State Socialist.

[True Refuge]

I consider myself part of The Left.

Do you consider yourself a communist?

[Iscoria]

China
Be """"""communist"""""" with chinese characteristics
Also china:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... llionaires
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... llionaires
https://c21stleft.com/2019/05/27/persec ... esistance/
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/01/22/asia ... index.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... e_equality Fucking united states has more equal income distribution
And in the meantime they have the 996 working hours (9am to 9pm 6 days a week), awful working rights and conditions, an education system strictly connected to the local province (meaning that if your province is poor bye bye good education), doesn't even have a fucking pension system, persecution of political dissidents, no free elections, extreme censorship that is expanding internationally, prisoners organ harvesting, persecution of minorities with concentration camps (which later get rented to approved chinese companies) and mass espionage.

How in the fucking world that's even called even only remotely socialist I have no absuletely fucking clue

Well high rate of government ownership ... in that way, and only that way, somewhat State Socialist.

The only country with a higher state ownership ratio of Fascist Italy was the Stalinist USSR. Also almost every european nation has a discrete array of public owned businesses, which was even higher before neoliberalism became spread.
I don't think you would call any of those "State Socialist". Yet at least the governments which control those businesses are at least somewhat democratically elected in countries with decent working conditions, usually with good human rights, free expression and no censorship.
If you take those into consideration and reference socialism as "workers somehow own the means of production", then even the fact that china is state-socialist is disputable.

[SD_Film Artists]

The need to stick to the good old economic side of leftism rather than SJWs and hypocrtical anti-colonialists.

[Kubra]

The need to stick to the good old economic side of leftism rather than SJWs and hypocrtical anti-colonialists.

this seems like a "careful what you wish for" thing

[Nobel Hobos 2]

Well high rate of government ownership ... in that way, and only that way, somewhat State Socialist.

The only country with a higher state ownership ratio of Fascist Italy was the Stalinist USSR. Also almost every european nation has a discrete array of public owned businesses, which was even higher before neoliberalism became spread.
I don't think you would call any of those "State Socialist". Yet at least the governments which control those businesses are at least somewhat democratically elected in countries with decent working conditions, usually with good human rights, free expression and no censorship.
If you take those into consideration and reference socialism as "workers somehow own the means of production", then even the fact that china is state-socialist is disputable.

Socialism is workers owning the means of production. State socialism is the state owning it "on their behalf".

I thought my reply was sufficiently hedged that it should be clear I don't consider state ownership to mean real socialism. It is however a sense in which China is socialist. You said "remotely socialist" and I think this fits that.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

The need to stick to the good old economic side of leftism rather than SJWs and hypocrtical anti-colonialists.

I think any movement with big, long-term plans can spend a bit of their energy winning a few symbolic battles along the way. It keeps up morale.

[SD_Film Artists]

The need to stick to the good old economic side of leftism rather than SJWs and hypocrtical anti-colonialists.

this seems like a "careful what you wish for" thing

My objections to people like Corbyn isn't their economic policy (mass nationalisations etc), but rather his apparent lack of support for the armed forces and a lack of patriotism in general. Why would you vote for someone who doesn't even want to preserve the country? If we're going to go far-left then we should go completely balls-in with a UK red army and turning the Falklands into Cuba complete with Argentina's own missile crisis; not that I'd actually want to nuke Argentina of course, but you have to look the part, buy the t-shirt etc. be assigned our t-shirt.

[Ifreann]

I consider myself part of The Left.

The best way forward for The Left would be to distance itself from SJW/identity politics and align itself with the People’s Republic of China. Even though the Chinese state isn’t perfect, it’s the most successful Communist country in history and it has the best chance of leading the transition to post-scarcity And post-capitalism. If not China, then who will stand up against the capitalist and imperial powers of the west?

The way forward is clear, as far as I’m concerned.

You're not on the left, you just love the Chinese government because you think living under it grants you some kind of prestige.

---

You want to fix the left? Easy. Abandon all identity politics and focus on the things that actually matter. Class. Economics. Money.
The slogan of the left should be "WORKERS OF THE WORLD UNITE" and not "WORKERS OF THE WORLD SPLIT INTO CLIQUES BASED ON RACE, GENDER, SEXUAL ORIENTATION AND OTHER CRAP AND FIGHT EACH OTHER WHILST THE RICH GET RICHER."

Not only does the later just not have the short and concise bite it also leads us all to ruin.

Meanwhile, under capitalism, some people are suffering more because of their identity. One might think that people who propose to support the workers would try to help them with that, but no, some liberals and various other right wingers insist that the best thing to do is ignore the suffering of workers and just yell slogans in their face when they bring it up.

[Natangia]

The need to stick to the good old economic side of leftism rather than SJWs and hypocrtical anti-colonialists.

I think any movement with big, long-term plans can spend a bit of their energy winning a few symbolic battles along the way. It keeps up morale.

What "symbolic battles" have the SJWs won?

I consider myself part of The Left.

The best way forward for The Left would be to distance itself from SJW/identity politics and align itself with the People’s Republic of China. Even though the Chinese state isn’t perfect, it’s the most successful Communist country in history and it has the best chance of leading the transition to post-scarcity And post-capitalism. If not China, then who will stand up against the capitalist and imperial powers of the west?

The way forward is clear, as far as I’m concerned.

You're not on the left, you just love the Chinese government because you think living under it grants you some kind of prestige.

---

You want to fix the left? Easy. Abandon all identity politics and focus on the things that actually matter. Class. Economics. Money.
The slogan of the left should be "WORKERS OF THE WORLD UNITE" and not "WORKERS OF THE WORLD SPLIT INTO CLIQUES BASED ON RACE, GENDER, SEXUAL ORIENTATION AND OTHER CRAP AND FIGHT EACH OTHER WHILST THE RICH GET RICHER."

Not only does the later just not have the short and concise bite it also leads us all to ruin.

Meanwhile, under capitalism, some people are suffering more because of their identity. One might think that people who propose to support the workers would try to help them with that, but no, some liberals and various other right wingers insist that the best thing to do is ignore the suffering of workers and just yell slogans in their face when they bring it up.

I definitely agree with your point on capitalism, they don't actually do anything. The populace is all just pieces in the game of getting elected for the politicians, leftists, rightists, liberals; they all lie, and don't actually give a shit about people.

[Iscoria]

I thought my reply was sufficiently hedged that it should be clear I don't consider state ownership to mean real socialism. It is however a sense in which China is socialist. You said "remotely socialist" and I think this fits that.

Sorry, I didn't get that.

Socialism is workers owning the means of production. State socialism is the state owning it "on their behalf".

Still I wouldn't consider that it's "on their behalf" if the government doesn't depend in the slightest from the populace choice

[Iscoria]

The need to stick to the good old economic side of leftism rather than SJWs and hypocrtical anti-colonialists.

I think any movement with big, long-term plans can spend a bit of their energy winning a few symbolic battles along the way. It keeps up morale.

In principle I agree, but what we have now is people fighting exclusively symbolic battles while at the same time cheering when labour laws get turned down so that woke businesses can fire workers publicly pointed as culpable for having expressed an unapproved opinion.

[True Refuge]

University student or teenager who's entry into politics is driven by ennui and angst rather then passion (and as a result is politically ineffectual), for the most part.

what wrong with ennui and angst tho

The struggle encountered by people who take the petite bourgeois mindset (including but not limited to the petite bourgeoisie, the vast majority of college age students, and well-off teenagers) is not one of survival. It is generally an ideological struggle - a clash between what the world is and what they think it should be according to their own brand of eclecticism. This clash cannot produce real, lasting, widespread passion, and thus the petite bourgeoisie and those with its characteristic mindset lack the capacity to make effective political change except when the stars align (when their interests align with that of the “big” bourgeoisie, or when they can hijack an aimless, pacified working class to do the work for them).

They’re not the sort a political organisation focused on representing workers should be receptive to. It is, however, possible to overcome the problems associated with this mindset and experience, but it is far more difficult then being pushed into political activity out of necessity.

[Natangia]

I thought my reply was sufficiently hedged that it should be clear I don't consider state ownership to mean real socialism. It is however a sense in which China is socialist. You said "remotely socialist" and I think this fits that.

Sorry, I didn't get that.

Socialism is workers owning the means of production. State socialism is the state owning it "on their behalf".

Still I wouldn't consider that it's "on their behalf" if the government doesn't depend in the slightest from the populace choice

That's because it isn't "on the behalf of the people", it's just the Party owns everything. State ownership in a non-democratic state is undoubtedly capitalist....ahem, China.

[Nejii]

The best way forward for The Left would be to distance itself from SJW/identity politics and align itself with the People’s Republic of China. Even though the Chinese state isn’t perfect, it’s the most successful Communist country in history and it has the best chance of leading the transition to post-scarcity And post-capitalism. If not China, then who will stand up against the capitalist and imperial powers of the west?

The way forward is clear, as far as I’m concerned.

The identity politics angle has gotten old. To utilize a common point made by leftists, this isn't the 1950's. And that it isn't, the fear-mongering tactics are old and burned out. The plantation references and the Nazi comparisons to the entirety of the pro-right by this point is empty bleating.

I actually recently read something that said the more radical element of the left (the Robin DiAngelo Karen's, the Antifa rabble-rousers, and the Al Sharpton race baiters for example) are causing an adverse intended effect by driving centrists and central leaning right-wingers far right with their megaphone rhetoric.

[SD_Film Artists]

I think any movement with big, long-term plans can spend a bit of their energy winning a few symbolic battles along the way. It keeps up morale.

In principle I agree, but what we have now is people fighting exclusively symbolic battles while at the same time cheering when labour laws get turned down so that woke businesses can fire workers publicly pointed as culpable for having expressed an unapproved opinion.

That and turning otherwise progressive groups into self-destructive competitions of virtue signaling. For example Autistic groups used to be about autistic people and their relations with autism organisations and the public image of autism. Now many of them are just another branch of 'hate the white man' and turning a blind eye to trolls if they happen to be trans.

[SD_Film Artists]

The best way forward for The Left would be to distance itself from SJW/identity politics and align itself with the People’s Republic of China. Even though the Chinese state isn’t perfect, it’s the most successful Communist country in history and it has the best chance of leading the transition to post-scarcity And post-capitalism. If not China, then who will stand up against the capitalist and imperial powers of the west?

The way forward is clear, as far as I’m concerned.

I actually recently read something that said the more radical element of the left (the Robin DiAngelo Karen's, the Antifa rabble-rousers, and the Al Sharpton race baiters for example) are causing an adverse intended effect by driving centrists and central leaning right-wingers far right with their megaphone rhetoric.

Indeed. I would have prefered Clinton to win in the last US election, now I'd love Trump to win just for the schadenfreude. I used to be very centrist and in a way I still am, but I find myself increasingly on the right-wing side of debates as the centrist parties (ie Lib Dems) are just too afraid to call-out the SJWs even when it's been pretty clear amoung Lib Dem members that cases of abuse/hateful rhetoric were mostly coming from Momentum rather than from UKippers or other right-wing groups.

[Iscoria]

I actually recently read something that said the more radical element of the left (the Robin DiAngelo Karen's, the Antifa rabble-rousers, and the Al Sharpton race baiters for example) are causing an adverse intended effect by driving centrists and central leaning right-wingers far right with their megaphone rhetoric.

This isn't anything new really, I was already pushed to at least the alt-lite during the 2015-2017 because of all this bullshit. I couldn't fathom that such divisive stuff (gender and feminism, in their most extreme, divisive and cringe forms) was actively being pushed in the name of equality

[Borderlands of Rojava]

No more hierarchies. None. Don't just flip it around and put formerly downtrodden groups at the top. Abolish hierarchy as a concept altogether in your head and hopefully in society. Be your own boss.

For reference as to what I'm saying, the post above me touches on it.

[Natangia]

No more hierarchies. None. Don't just flip it around and put formerly downtrodden groups at the top. Abolish hierarchy as a concept altogether in your head and hopefully in society. Be your own boss.

For reference as to what I'm saying, the post above me touches on it.

Completely eliminating hierarchy from society is incredibly unrealistic.

[Kowani]

No more hierarchies. None. Don't just flip it around and put formerly downtrodden groups at the top. Abolish hierarchy as a concept altogether in your head and hopefully in society. Be your own boss.

For reference as to what I'm saying, the post above me touches on it.

Completely eliminating hierarchy from society is incredibly unrealistic.

Tons of things that we have now were called "unrealistic" in their day.

[Nilokeras]

I actually recently read something that said the more radical element of the left (the Robin DiAngelo Karen's, the Antifa rabble-rousers, and the Al Sharpton race baiters for example) are causing an adverse intended effect by driving centrists and central leaning right-wingers far right with their megaphone rhetoric.

An interesting assumption considering that at the height of the George Floyd protests 54% of Americans thought that burning down the police precinct in Minneapolis was fully or partially justified.

[-Ocelot-]

The need to stick to the good old economic side of leftism rather than SJWs and hypocrtical anti-colonialists.

They tried that for ~80 years and it never worked.