Should the State of Jefferson Exist?

[Stellar Colonies]

I exaggerated a bit.

Hm...

Partially true, and not much can be done for now. Millions of people live down there, dependent on imported water from elsewhere in California and the Colorado River. Cutting it off would lead to serious and likely fatal water shortages. Over the long term, they can start reducing the population through some means (emigration?) or secure other sources of water, such as coastal desalination plants if those become an easy option.

Of course, the current status quo could remain, but that has issues, environmental being one of them.

and if people dont want to move what can you do?

Desalination plants are likely already a thing.

Not much, admittedly. They do seem to be working towards being more environmentally friendly (such as optimistically not sucking the Colorado River entirely dry), but they've basically terraformed a desert, which requires a huge amount of water to be taken from somewhere.

EDIT: Thankfully, they do seem to be working towards desalination as a major water source.

[Kowani]

The Urban/Rural divide, as mentioned in this thread, is a real thing. North of Albany, the people are majority conservative, yet tax dollars collected are stripped and sent to NYC, which is unabashedly liberal, as is most of Long Island.

The irony here is the NYC is the economic engine that keeps Upstate New York from crashing.

California is of course a "blue" state and of course those who have worked land for generations are sick of funding a failed and bankrupted state (how many times has it been bailed out now?)

Never. Not a single time. California is a net giver (it sends more in taxes than it takes), by the way.

California as a whole needs to be depopulated, imho. The environment, specifically water, cannot support the sheer amount of people, especially south of San Jose. People should be given vouchers from the federal government to move to under populated areas, to spread the population out. Idaho and East Oregon are excellent spots.

The water problem is not the number of people, its the usage.

DC/PR/USVI/Guam should not have statehood nor should Jefferson. I agree with some of the responses in that changing senators/amending the constitution/et. al. would be terrible to do. I also agree that people should not be deprived of liberty, so that other people 300 miles away can have free "fill in the blank". Tax money should always stay local, and that sort of change would be much more helpful in giving local and county government say over where those same officials live.

The fucking irony

Don't forget, politicians currently are just professional liars, and they go where they can get elected. Elizabeth Warren, for instance was imported to MA from TN because she would not have a career in TN... but in MA she fits right in. Gets paid 250k per credit when she teaches at Harvard as well. (Each class is 3 credits.)

1: OK., not TN.
2: That's not why she went to MA.

Term limits and native representation of course would fix that but in a hot election year no real issues are going to be decided when voting is happening on "principal" rather than on platform.

That's also not what is happening.

Also I take extreme offense at one poster linking conservatism with racism. In fact, I would point out that the democratic south was the pro slavery party.

Almost like the democrats used to be conservative or something. Weird how things change.

While I understand that has changed over 150 years, race is not the only topic facing America, and I would even say, its one of the least applicable topics facing any sort of political and/or legislative changes we need to be making. It just happens to be a dogwhistle for down low trolling imho.

This is a very bad opinion that ignores all the data about racial disparities.

[Chestaan]

The most important question to ask is is there any desire for such a state among those who reside in the proposed area it would take in?

[San Lumen]

The most important question to ask is is there any desire for such a state among those who reside in the proposed area it would take in?

No there isn't. Its a fringe idea with very limited support.

[Apostate]

The Urban/Rural divide, as mentioned in this thread, is a real thing. North of Albany, the people are majority conservative, yet tax dollars collected are stripped and sent to NYC, which is unabashedly liberal, as is most of Long Island.

The irony here is the NYC is the economic engine that keeps Upstate New York from crashing.

California is of course a "blue" state and of course those who have worked land for generations are sick of funding a failed and bankrupted state (how many times has it been bailed out now?)

Never. Not a single time. California is a net giver (it sends more in taxes than it takes), by the way.

California as a whole needs to be depopulated, imho. The environment, specifically water, cannot support the sheer amount of people, especially south of San Jose. People should be given vouchers from the federal government to move to under populated areas, to spread the population out. Idaho and East Oregon are excellent spots.

The water problem is not the number of people, its the usage.

DC/PR/USVI/Guam should not have statehood nor should Jefferson. I agree with some of the responses in that changing senators/amending the constitution/et. al. would be terrible to do. I also agree that people should not be deprived of liberty, so that other people 300 miles away can have free "fill in the blank". Tax money should always stay local, and that sort of change would be much more helpful in giving local and county government say over where those same officials live.

The fucking irony

Don't forget, politicians currently are just professional liars, and they go where they can get elected. Elizabeth Warren, for instance was imported to MA from TN because she would not have a career in TN... but in MA she fits right in. Gets paid 250k per credit when she teaches at Harvard as well. (Each class is 3 credits.)

1: OK., not TN.
2: That's not why she went to MA.

Term limits and native representation of course would fix that but in a hot election year no real issues are going to be decided when voting is happening on "principal" rather than on platform.

That's also not what is happening.

Also I take extreme offense at one poster linking conservatism with racism. In fact, I would point out that the democratic south was the pro slavery party.

Almost like the democrats used to be conservative or something. Weird how things change.

While I understand that has changed over 150 years, race is not the only topic facing America, and I would even say, its one of the least applicable topics facing any sort of political and/or legislative changes we need to be making. It just happens to be a dogwhistle for down low trolling imho.

This is a very bad opinion that ignores all the data about racial disparities.

Line by line arguments are reductive. It gives the illusion of participation when one simply is attempting to refute another. The motivation is never constructive and usually an attempt to begin a pitched internet argument. I, recognizing this, decline to respond in kind and would simply ask that you present data regarding racial disparities that supports your position of it being the most serious topic facing America today.

All I ask is that the emotional farming techniques not be employed, rather a reasoned position be posited.

Cali budget issues, May: https://www.paloaltoonline.com/news/202 ... cuts-ahead
https://californiapolicycenter.org/cali ... rillion-2/
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm ... %20picture.

California is a state in crippling debt and I can find no data that supports your assertion it "contributes to taxes" in any way. I am not picking on California for political reasons, but because the point of the OP/Topic revolves around Californian's mismanagement of their own resources. Its not intended as a body check to a political party (republican governors have come and gone there, and not fixed it either) but rather as a contribution to the point; that you yourself made " Weird how some things change". Yes, its weird also how some things do not change, that could.

Regardless I am not looking to get uber political or angsty argumentative, I find the topic of domestic affairs/State/Local level stuff very interesting but am not pro secessionist in any way.

[Stellar Colonies]

The most important question to ask is is there any desire for such a state among those who reside in the proposed area it would take in?

Not here.

[Rio Cana]

From 2015 -

California is currently about 11 trillion gallons of water in deficit.

There was a plan back then to build a fresh water pipeline from Alaska to California. It would have brought 1.3 trillion gallons of water a year to California.

[Norastan]

Depends, if we create a new state, if that state leans toward a certain party, such as Republican or Democrat, you might have to create an another state that leans toward the opposite party and you also have to deal with electorate votes since the USA doesn't use popular vote for presidential elections.

[Eukaryotic Cells]

Depends, if we create a new state, if that state leans toward a certain party, such as Republican or Democrat, you might have to create an another state that leans toward the opposite party and you also have to deal with electorate votes since the USA doesn't use popular vote for presidential elections.

This is a very astute observation that isn't brought up nearly enough in these sorts of "xyz should become a state" conversations.

[Ethel mermania]

Depends, if we create a new state, if that state leans toward a certain party, such as Republican or Democrat, you might have to create an another state that leans toward the opposite party and you also have to deal with electorate votes since the USA doesn't use popular vote for presidential elections.

This is a very astute observation that isn't brought up nearly enough in these sorts of "xyz should become a state" conversations.

Pre civil wae usually states were brought in pairs. You could do a deal to create "the new California republic ^tm", and admit Puerto Rico as a state at the same time

[Nihon no Tengoku]

Having (briefly) lived in 'Jefferson,' I really don't think it has any right striking out on its own.

[Dominioan]

Feels like this

[Kowani]

The irony here is the NYC is the economic engine that keeps Upstate New York from crashing.
Never. Not a single time. California is a net giver (it sends more in taxes than it takes), by the way.
The water problem is not the number of people, its the usage.
The fucking irony

1: OK., not TN.
2: That's not why she went to MA.
That's also not what is happening.
Almost like the democrats used to be conservative or something. Weird how things change.
This is a very bad opinion that ignores all the data about racial disparities.

Line by line arguments are reductive. It gives the illusion of participation when one simply is attempting to refute another.

Yeah. That's what I'm doing. Refuting your arguments.

The motivation is never constructive and usually an attempt to begin a pitched internet argument. I, recognizing this, decline to respond in kind and would simply ask that you present data regarding racial disparities that supports your position of it being the most serious topic facing America today.

Point of order: I did not say that "race is the most important issue facing America today." I disagreed with your statement that it is the least.

All I ask is that the emotional farming techniques not be employed, rather a reasoned position be posited.

Emotional farming? What?

Cali budget issues, May: https://www.paloaltoonline.com/news/202 ... cuts-ahead

Almost like there was a huge economic recession caused by the pandemic or something. We can't just "cut spending to balance the budget", not just because that takes time, but because we have to supplement the collapse of local economies and consumer spending to keep the economy from crashing completely.

https://californiapolicycenter.org/californias-state-and-local-liabilities-total-1-5-trillion-2/

...You know how states fund things, right? It's not just through taxes. Bonds and loans are huge parts of that. Unlike the federal government, we can't create money by spending (although we do create it through loans).

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2011-jan-15-la-fi-petruno-20110115-story.html#:~:text=Dateline%20Sacramento%2C%20Jan.,its%20long%2Dterm%20financial%20picture.

This is irrelevant.

California is a state in crippling debt and I can find no data that supports your assertion it "contributes to taxes" in any way.

I will admit I was operating on outdated information here. On balance of payments, it is a true neutral.

I am not picking on California for political reasons, but because the point of the OP/Topic revolves around Californian's mismanagement of their own resources.

It is interesting how you blame the entire state of California when the state liabilities are, according to your own source, only a fraction of the total.

[Albrenia]

Maybe they meant 'emotion framing'? As opposed to farming.

[Cordel One]

Northern Californian here: Everything above Sacramento is generally ignored by the rest of the state and has a lot of autonomy. If anything the rural counties could do with more funding and oversight, especially for our schools. Becoming a tax haven for the rich isn't gonna fix anything.