Sudan to normalize relations with Israel

[Pope Saint Peter the Apostle]

I would say that the Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries suggests that the lack of a Jewish state may very well lead to ethnic cleansing of the Jews in Judea.

And interestingly said Jewish population was treated like second-class citizens in Israel compared to immigrants from European nations. But there was no racism in Israel.

That seems like deflection. I never claimed there was no racism in Israel - there is.

[Vassenor]

And interestingly said Jewish population was treated like second-class citizens in Israel compared to immigrants from European nations. But there was no racism in Israel.

That seems like deflection. I never claimed there was no racism in Israel - there is.

No, but it has been claimed in this thread.

[Insaanistan]

I would say that the Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries suggests that the lack of a Jewish state may very well lead to ethnic cleansing of the Jews in Judea.

And interestingly said Jewish population was treated like second-class citizens in Israel compared to immigrants from European nations. But there was no racism in Israel.

Don’t get me started on how Israel treats Arabs, Africans and Ethiopian Jews!

[Unstoppable Empire of Doom]

I am all for peace. Regardless of how reprehensible zionism is Id rather accept the fact of its modern existance than perpetuate the risk of war.

So I was curious how exactly Trump secured these peace deals. Looks like it is economic pressure combined with debt forgiveness. Litterally buying peace..... still probably the greatest achievment of his first term in my opinion. Ironically he seemed quite flippant when it came to supporting israel in the debates leading up to 2016.

[The Restored Danelaw]

I am all for peace. Regardless of how reprehensible zionism is Id rather accept the fact of its modern existance than perpetuate the risk of war.

So I was curious how exactly Trump secured these peace deals. Looks like it is economic pressure combined with debt forgiveness. Litterally buying peace..... still probably the greatest achievment of his first term in my opinion. Ironically he seemed quite flippant when it came to supporting israel in the debates leading up to 2016.

Eh, in the UAE and Bahrain this was less "buying peace" and more "building a stable bloc against IR aggression". And in Sudan, it took until at least a regime change for this to be possible.

[Insaanistan]

I am all for peace. Regardless of how reprehensible zionism is Id rather accept the fact of its modern existance than perpetuate the risk of war.

So I was curious how exactly Trump secured these peace deals. Looks like it is economic pressure combined with debt forgiveness. Litterally buying peace..... still probably the greatest achievment of his first term in my opinion. Ironically he seemed quite flippant when it came to supporting israel in the debates leading up to 2016.

Less buying peace and more Trump said, “If you want the sanctions gone and to get off the terror sponsors list you shouldn’t be on anymore anyway, you better normalize relations with Israel. I don’t care if your people might revolt if you do. Your decision. Also, how are you guys black AND Arab? Is that even allowed?”

[Vivolkha]

I am all for peace. Regardless of how reprehensible zionism is Id rather accept the fact of its modern existance than perpetuate the risk of war.

So I was curious how exactly Trump secured these peace deals. Looks like it is economic pressure combined with debt forgiveness. Litterally buying peace..... still probably the greatest achievment of his first term in my opinion. Ironically he seemed quite flippant when it came to supporting israel in the debates leading up to 2016.

As I said,

Arab nations recognizing Israel (a positive development) has much more to do with the current Middle East Cold War than with Donald Trump. Except the UAE, most petromonarchies have some of the most expensive, wasteful and inefficient armies in the world. Meanwhile, Israel, which is just as opposed to Iran as they are, has the most efficient army in the world and very advanced military technology.

[Unstoppable Empire of Doom]

I am all for peace. Regardless of how reprehensible zionism is Id rather accept the fact of its modern existance than perpetuate the risk of war.

So I was curious how exactly Trump secured these peace deals. Looks like it is economic pressure combined with debt forgiveness. Litterally buying peace..... still probably the greatest achievment of his first term in my opinion. Ironically he seemed quite flippant when it came to supporting israel in the debates leading up to 2016.

As I said,

Arab nations recognizing Israel (a positive development) has much more to do with the current Middle East Cold War than with Donald Trump. Except the UAE, most petromonarchies have some of the most expensive, wasteful and inefficient armies in the world. Meanwhile, Israel, which is just as opposed to Iran as they are, has the most efficient army in the world and very advanced military technology.

Fair enough, never considered who the most efficient army in the world is but you are probably right.

[Vivolkha]

Fair enough, never considered who the most efficient army in the world is but you are probably right.

Efficient in the sense of effectiveness relative to their economic and human resources, not the most powerful overall.

[Kexholm Karelia]

How about instead of sanctioning Israel, countries sanction radical islamist terrorism sponsors like Saudi Arabia and Iran? Oh wait, muh oil money

[Thermodolia]

I don't think the need for Congressional approval is a significant obstacle; it is, all the same, an important constitutional issue. No US president can simply wish this into being. I nonetheless don't think that either Congress or the increasingly likely Biden administration would block it.

The far more significant obstacle is that the treaty needs approval from a Sudanese legislative body that doesn't even exist yet, and which will likely need to take Sudanese public opinion into account once it does exist.

With regards to Sudan, I have just one personal wish: that they extradite Al Bashir to the ICC. Fatouh Bensouda visited Khartoum recently, so I have hope for that. I don't believe they need legislative approval to extradite him.

IIRC they said that they’ll be extraditing Al Bashir to the ICC

[Vivolkha]

With regards to Sudan, I have just one personal wish: that they extradite Al Bashir to the ICC. Fatouh Bensouda visited Khartoum recently, so I have hope for that. I don't believe they need legislative approval to extradite him.

IIRC they said that they’ll be extraditing Al Bashir to the ICC

That's good news.

[Thermodolia]

Again, Arabs wanted to play "might makes right". As a result, they lost most of the territory to Israel, and these territorial loses are recognized by the international community as part of Israel.

Also, most of Israel's land under the partition plan (in fact, even today) was the Negev desert, which isn't very habitable.

They didn't want to play "might makes right", they didn't accept the partition plan because it allotted Israel large amounts of land that were majority-Arab and left Palestine bisected by the Jewish state. It wasn't a fair partition plan.

You are aware the the majority of the Jewish land was uninhabitable desert right?

The arabs got a lot of the good parts and they really wherent that bisected as the splits where basically touching eachother. However instead of diplomatically solving the problem the Arab nations decided to invade.

They could have asked for a better plan and offered a solution and had negotiations but they didn’t

[Insaanistan]

They didn't want to play "might makes right", they didn't accept the partition plan because it allotted Israel large amounts of land that were majority-Arab and left Palestine bisected by the Jewish state. It wasn't a fair partition plan.

You are aware the the majority of the Jewish land was uninhabitable desert right?

The arabs got a lot of the good parts and they really wherent that bisected as the splits where basically touching eachother. However instead of diplomatically solving the problem the Arab nations decided to invade.

They could have asked for a better plan and offered a solution and had negotiations but they didn’t

They did offer a solution, but Britain said, “Indigenous people wanting all their land? Nah, screw that!”

[Insaanistan]

How about instead of sanctioning Israel, countries sanction radical islamist terrorism sponsors like Saudi Arabia and Iran? Oh wait, muh oil money

You think Iran isn’t getting sanctioned?!
I think Saudi and Israel BOTH should get sanctioned.

[Pope Saint Peter the Apostle]

You are aware the the majority of the Jewish land was uninhabitable desert right?

The arabs got a lot of the good parts and they really wherent that bisected as the splits where basically touching eachother. However instead of diplomatically solving the problem the Arab nations decided to invade.

They could have asked for a better plan and offered a solution and had negotiations but they didn’t

They did offer a solution, but Britain said, “Indigenous people wanting all their land? Nah, screw that!”

Actually, Emir Faisal was quite open to a Jewish state (one larger than present day Israel), but the UK screwed over their agreements by establishing the Mandate system.

Anyway, both Jews and Arabs have a legitimate claim to the territory, and unfortunately, only a two-state solution could (and can) realistically accommodate this. (As I noted earlier, the Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries gives Jews good reasons not to want to be subject to a majority-Arab government...)

[The Restored Danelaw]

You are aware the the majority of the Jewish land was uninhabitable desert right?

The arabs got a lot of the good parts and they really wherent that bisected as the splits where basically touching eachother. However instead of diplomatically solving the problem the Arab nations decided to invade.

They could have asked for a better plan and offered a solution and had negotiations but they didn’t

They did offer a solution, but Britain said, “Indigenous people wanting all their land? Nah, screw that!”

I mean they did give parts of it to Arab colonists and settlers, so you're not wrong.

[Albionist Great Britain]

How about instead of sanctioning Israel, countries sanction radical islamist terrorism sponsors like Saudi Arabia and Iran? Oh wait, muh oil money

Iran is being sanctioned, quite heavily AFAIK. Saudi Arabia, meanwhile, isn’t necessarily a state sponsor IIRC though it’s still a negative force. As well, Israel isn’t officially sanctioned by the UN AFAIK. Condemned? Yes, but the USA has rightly vetoed any acts of terror upon the Israeli state.

[Novus America]

Again, Arabs wanted to play "might makes right". As a result, they lost most of the territory to Israel, and these territorial loses are recognized by the international community as part of Israel.

Also, most of Israel's land under the partition plan (in fact, even today) was the Negev desert, which isn't very habitable.

They didn't want to play "might makes right", they didn't accept the partition plan because it allotted Israel large amounts of land that were majority-Arab and left Palestine bisected by the Jewish state. It wasn't a fair partition plan.

I mean the actually did though, sure you can argue the details of the plan were unfair but the Arabs did not offer a fair counter proposal at the time. They went for an all or nothing war. Which they did again later. Problem with all or nothing is when you lose, you get nothing.

Which is why Arab states recognizing Israel is a good change. Surely you recognize, from a pragmatic perspective that the Arab policy of the past of no recognition has been a complete failure, that has not helped the Palestinian Arabs.

I support a two state (maybe three state?) solution but that requires recognizing Israel does and will exist.

All or nothing will get the Palestinian Arabs nothing.

[Novus America]

How about instead of sanctioning Israel, countries sanction radical islamist terrorism sponsors like Saudi Arabia and Iran? Oh wait, muh oil money

Iran is being sanctioned, quite heavily AFAIK. Saudi Arabia, meanwhile, isn’t necessarily a state sponsor IIRC though it’s still a negative force. As well, Israel isn’t officially sanctioned by the UN AFAIK. Condemned? Yes, but the USA has rightly vetoed any acts of terror upon the Israeli state.

The US will probably drop sanctions on Iran next year, and many countries deliberately undermine and ignore those sanctions for oil. Of course Saudi Arabia gets by with a lot of shit. But few leaders care about really fixing any problems, it is all about getting short term money, oil and/or some political advantages. It is all about seizing some short term advantage, not about long term coherent policies, which hardly exist in the post modern age.

[Vivolkha]

I support a two state (maybe three state?) solution but that requires recognizing Israel does and will exist.

What would be the third state?

[Insaanistan]

I support a two state (maybe three state?) solution but that requires recognizing Israel does and will exist.

What would be the third state?

The nation I suggested when I was a kid: Israelistine, where Jews, Muslims and Christians can live in perfect harmony.

[Arvenia]

How about dividing Israel into Israel, Palestine, Gaza and Jerusalem? Palestine gets West Bank, Israel continues to exist, Gaza stays independent and Jerusalem becomes its own nation. On the other hand, this is the only result I can think of (so far).

[Novus America]

I support a two state (maybe three state?) solution but that requires recognizing Israel does and will exist.

What would be the third state?

Possibly Gaza and the West Bank might be separate states. Given the already de facto are. Or in the case of the pre 1967 borders, the three states were Jordan, Egypt and Israel as Gaza and the West Bank were de here separate at the time.

Just as Pakistan was doomed to collapse, it might be impossible to keep two geographically separated and quite different legally and culturally areas as one state.

Even if we establish a Palestinian Arab state that is truly independent, it very likely will split in two.

[Novus America]

How about dividing Israel into Israel, Palestine, Gaza and Jerusalem? Palestine gets West Bank, Israel continues to exist, Gaza stays independent and Jerusalem becomes its own nation. On the other hand, this is the only result I can think of (so far).

The issue here is Jerusalem. Neither side will give it up. But I do think it is very likely that Gaza and the West Bank are too different to successfully form a single state.