NationStates

1. He was born in Salzburg. Salzburg was part of the German-speaking Holy Roman Empire but independent at the time.

2. There was no state called Germany at the time.

3. Salzburg is part of modern day Austria, it was never annexed by either Prussia or Germany.

4. Mozart had strong connections to Vienna and had a huge part of his career there, Vienna is the modern capital of Austria; it was then the capital of the Hapsburg Empire (later, the Austrian Empire).

5. Mozart spoke German and considered himself German in an ethnic and cultural sense in his letters

6. His birthplace Salzburg has been called “the German Rome”

Echellia wrote:He is Australian

Twicetagram and JYPe wrote:Why are we even fighting do we even need to refer to him as a German or Austrian composer? At least 3/4 of the world should know of him.

If I had to have a say I think German. Since Austria and Germany are related in some ways, and he identified himself as German.
“and considered himself German in an ethnic and cultural sense in his letters” if we’re going by that I think German would be a more respectful way to describe him, since he himself referred to himself as German. His ties to Vienna ultimately don’t matter.

Infected Mushroom wrote:One argument for German is that at the time “Austria” had clearly defined territorial borders in the sense of the Hapsburg Empire and those did not include Salzburg or Bavaria.

So he’d be part of Salzburg/the Holy Roman Empire and at the time that was more “German” than it was “Austrian” since the Hapsburg lands didn’t include Salzburg.

Eukaryotic Cells wrote:

Infected Mushroom wrote:One argument for German is that at the time “Austria” had clearly defined territorial borders in the sense of the Hapsburg Empire and those did not include Salzburg or Bavaria.

So he’d be part of Salzburg/the Holy Roman Empire and at the time that was more “German” than it was “Austrian” since the Hapsburg lands didn’t include Salzburg.

The Holy Roman Empire also included Hapsburg territory (including most of modern Austria); things are definitely messy here.

His father's family was from Augsburg in Bavaria. His mother's family was from Salzburg. His wife's family was from Baden-Württemberg, but they moved to Vienna when she was 17. Mozart lived in Vienna and had children there. Someone with more time than me could probably put his whole family lineage on a map.

Infected Mushroom wrote:

Eukaryotic Cells wrote:The Holy Roman Empire also included Hapsburg territory (including most of modern Austria); things are definitely messy here.

His father's family was from Augsburg in Bavaria. His mother's family was from Salzburg. His wife's family was from Baden-Württemberg, but they moved to Vienna when she was 17. Mozart lived in Vienna and had children there. Someone with more time than me could probably put his whole family lineage on a map.

And so are you saying his lineage comes from even further north?

Even more historically Germanic lands?

An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:He was the same nationality as Hitler.

An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:He was the same nationality as Hitler.

Windows 10 wrote:Honestly, i always thought that Mozart was from Austria. I did not know, that people are unsure if he is German or Austria. If he is German, that what other big, famous thing does Austria have?

Windows 10 wrote:Honestly, i always thought that Mozart was from Austria. I did not know, that people are unsure if he is German or Austria. If he is German, that what other big, famous thing does Austria have?

Windows 10 wrote:Honestly, i always thought that Mozart was from Austria. I did not know, that people are unsure if he is German or Austria. If he is German, that what other big, famous thing does Austria have?

The Archregimancy wrote:The flaw in your latest hypothetical is that it's anachronistic; it applies modern definitions of nationality on the basis of country of birth that didn't really exist in German-speaking lands in the second half of the 18th century, when the Holy Roman Empire was on its last legs, and the rivalry between Prussia and Austria over leadership of 'Germany' was still developing.

Developing German nationalism was based on jus sanguinis rather than jus soli, and the concept that there should be a unified German state, and whether this should be a Kleindeutschland where Protestant Prussia took the lead in uniting all Germany except the Habsburg territories, or a Grossdeutschland where Austria took the lead in uniting all Germany including Prussia only really developed after the conclusion of the Napoleonic wars - by which time Mozart was dead - and was only settled in Prussia's favour, thus ultimately leading to the modern division between Germany and Austria, via the Austro-Prussian war of 1866.

So your question is functionally meaningless. Mozart was an ethnic German from what's now modern Austria; but it's unlikely that Mozart himself would have understood a distinction between 'Deutschland' on the one hand and the Erzherzogtum Österreich [Archduchy of Austria] on the other, especially since he wasn't from 'Austria'. He was from the Fürsterzbistum Salzburg [Prince-Archbishopric of Salzburg], which had been a self-governing principality since the 14th century, and wouldn't cease to exist until after Mozart's death. Historically, Salzburg was closer to Bavaria than Austria, and on its final dissolution as a state it was divided between both of the latter.


Your Napoleon comparison is also a poor one since Corsica was transferred to France in the year of Napoleon's birth, and France has, since the Revolution, emphasised a combination of jus solis and civic nationalism, so that you become French either by being born in France or by accepting French culture; not primarily on the basis of being ethnically French.

An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:He was the same nationality as Hitler.

The key difference being that Braunau am Inn was part of the Habsburg Empire when Hitler was born, whereas the the Fürsterzbistum Salzburg was a separate state of the HRE when Mozart was born.

Windows 10 wrote:Honestly, i always thought that Mozart was from Austria. I did not know, that people are unsure if he is German or Austria. If he is German, that what other big, famous thing does Austria have?