Claim on Mozart

[Geneviev]

I have no choice but to get involved in this one. My flag has Mozart and he is my favorite composer. He was Austrian, but Austria and Germany were close once. As long as everyone recognizes his superiority, it doesn't really matter.

[Ifreann]

I don't see the point of choosing between two options that are both wrong.

[Auzkhia]

W.A. Mozart considered himself a German, but nationality as we know it wasn't much of a thing then. At the time, German and Austrian weren't seen as separate. Austria was German, as a cultural group.

If he lived today, he'd think of himself as Austrian, and his life in historical memory is Viennese and also Pragian? and so Austria claims him as part of their cultural heritage, but then again this was pre-nationalism. He's a German, but not Bundesdeutsch but he's not a citizen of the Republic of Austria, and frankly, I don't know what his passport would have been like, maybe Austrian as he was in the imperial court?

TL;DR, he's German, but not German-German, but also Austrians can have a little Mozart, as a treat.

[The Blaatschapen]

I don't see the point of choosing between two options that are both wrong.

This isn't the American election thread.

[Infected Mushroom]

I don't see the point of choosing between two options that are both wrong.

I feel he has to be one of the two. But it's a bit of a value judgement.

I.E. Is what he considers himself? Is it the legal status of the territory he was born in? Is it the city he had the most impact on career wise? Is it his ancestry? etc

However, if he lived and died in present day Austria, that's a few points for Austria I think. But then there's the technicality of the territory not being within Hapsburg lands at the time and Hapsburg being the Austria of the day, so then... German?

Not necessarily?

[The United Artherian Federation]

I don't see the point of choosing between two options that are both wrong.

This isn't the American election thread.

This time of year, every thread is the US election thread.

[Ifreann]

I don't see the point of choosing between two options that are both wrong.

I feel he has to be one of the two. But it's a bit of a value judgement.

Why do you believe he has to be one of the two when it's been explained to you quite clearly that he wasn't either? There was no nation of Germany at the time, and Salzburg wasn't part of Austria.

I.E. Is what he considers himself? Is it the legal status of the territory he was born in? Is it the city he had the most impact on career wise? Is it his ancestry? etc

However, if he lived and died in present day Austria, that's a few points for Austria I think. But then there's the technicality of the territory not being within Hapsburg lands at the time and Hapsburg being the Austria of the day, so then... German?

Not necessarily?

The Hapsburgs were the family that ruled Austria. The place wasn't called "Hapsburg", it was called Austria. There is a place called Hapsburg, but it's in Switzerland.

[Norastan]

He was born in Salzburg so he is a Austrian national since Salzburg is an Austrian city.

[Infected Mushroom]

I feel he has to be one of the two. But it's a bit of a value judgement.

Why do you believe he has to be one of the two when it's been explained to you quite clearly that he wasn't either? There was no nation of Germany at the time, and Salzburg wasn't part of Austria.

There wasn't a modern nation state but the Germanic and Austrian cultures, or at least their pre-modern equivalents were around

Also, if you add the theoretical sum total of all pro-German and pro-Austrian arguments, I don't believe they can be completely and exactly equal in their respective totalities. One must be greater, however, marginally.

[Ifreann]

He was born in Salzburg so he is a Austrian national since Salzburg is an Austrian city.

Salzburg was an independent Prince-Archbisophric of the Holy Roman Empire when Mozart was born there. Mozart is no more an Austrian national than he is a citizen of the EU.

[Infected Mushroom]

He was born in Salzburg so he is a Austrian national since Salzburg is an Austrian city.

Salzburg was an independent Prince-Archbisophric of the Holy Roman Empire when Mozart was born there. Mozart is no more an Austrian national than he is a citizen of the EU.

I mean, no one is saying he has an Austrian passport or that the UN was around at the time, but culturally and so forth if we had to categorise...

[Auzkhia]

He was born in Salzburg so he is a Austrian national since Salzburg is an Austrian city.

Austrian nationals, as a concept, would have been subjects of the Habsburg Crown at the time, though. Salzburg was not part of Austria yet in the 18th century.

[The Archregimancy]

But then there's the technicality of the territory not being within Hapsburg lands at the time and Hapsburg being the Austria of the day

This isn't a 'technicality'; it's a significant point of historical fact.

The Prince-Archbishopric of Salzburg was a distinct principality of the Holy Roman Empire for nearly 700 years, wholly separate and independent from its neighbours in Bavaria and Austria until it was split between and annexed by both of the latter in the early 19th century following the dissolution of the Holy Roman Empire.

That's not something you can just wish away in the service of a hypothetical scenario that asks everyone to ignore the context of the development of concepts of nationalism and national identity in the 18th-century German lands in order to focus on an-best whimsical understanding of how these issues should operate in the 21st century.

Yes, Salzburg is part of the modern Republic of Austria, which has existed since the collapse of the Habsburg Monarchy; but Austria proper, in the historical sense, didn't include Salzburg, though the latter did border both Austria proper (the [Arch]duchy of Austria), and the outlying lands of Inner Austria and Further Austria.

So again, the distinction between the modern state and the historical status of Salzburg during Mozart's lifetime is not a 'technicality'. It's key to any understanding of German identity in Mozart's lifetime.

If you are using modern borders only, then Mozart was Austrian; his homes in Salzburg and Vienna were in what's now the Republic of Austria.

If you make any attempt to consider historical context, and the situation in his own lifetime, then he was a German Salzburger who lived in what later became Austria.

[Infected Mushroom]

But then there's the technicality of the territory not being within Hapsburg lands at the time and Hapsburg being the Austria of the day

This isn't a 'technicality'; it's a significant point of historical fact.

The Prince-Archbishopric of Salzburg was a distinct principality of the Holy Roman Empire for nearly 700 years, wholly separate and independent from its neighbours in Bavaria and Austria until it was split between and annexed by both of the latter in the early 19th century following the dissolution of the Holy Roman Empire.

That's not something you can just wish away in the service of a hypothetical scenario that asks everyone to ignore the context of the development of concepts of nationalism and national identity in the 18th-century German lands in order to focus on an-best whimsical understanding of how these issues should operate in the 21st century.

Yes, Salzburg is part of the modern Republic of Austria, which has existed since the collapse of the Habsburg Monarchy; but Austria proper, in the historical sense, didn't include Salzburg, though the latter did border both Austria proper (the [Arch]duchy of Austria), and the outlying lands of Inner Austria and Further Austria.

So again, the distinction between the modern state and the historical status of Salzburg during Mozart's lifetime is not a 'technicality'. It's key to any understanding of German identity in Mozart's lifetime.

If you are using modern borders only, then Mozart was Austrian; his homes in Salzburg and Vienna were in what's now the Republic of Austria.

If you make any attempt to consider historical context, and the situation in his own lifetime, then he was a German Salzburger who lived in what later became Austria.

I feel like that's an argument in favour of him being "German" though in a limited and different sense... based on the status of the legal borders of the time and there being a general "German" cultural sense (that's not quite what we have now since this was before nationalism but maybe something of a precursor, regionalist variation) tied to the place?

[An Alan Smithee Nation]

"The past is a foreign country"

[Heloin]

"The past is a foreign country"

[Chan Island]

"5. Mozart spoke German and considered himself German in an ethnic and cultural sense in his letters."

He's German. Self is the ultimate authority in such matters.

Very blinked view for the time. Remember not only that "Austria" was but one of multiple "German" states at the time (and the term could and was applied to all of them) , but also that it wasn't even completely German. By then the Hapsburg empire had Hungary, Czechia, parts of what are modern day Croatia, Italy, Romania, Silesia and Serbia. That entailed an awful lot of people who weren't speaking German as a first language, so a lot of the 'German' Austrians made a point of saying that they were German, a tradition that continued long even after Germany itself was founded.
You still find Austrians saying that they were 'German' in this sense even as recently as the First World War, for that exact reason.

So you are using a very anachronistic approach to discussing the issue.

... Not that it matters anyway. Arch has correctly pointed out many times now that Mozart was born, grew up and enjoyed the patronage of the Archbishopric of Salzburg, which was a most independent state all through his life and remain so for a while afterwards. He was a Salzburger.

[The Blaatschapen]

"5. Mozart spoke German and considered himself German in an ethnic and cultural sense in his letters."

He's German. Self is the ultimate authority in such matters.

Very blinked view for the time. Remember not only that "Austria" was but one of multiple "German" states at the time (and the term could and was applied to all of them) , but also that it wasn't even completely German. By then the Hapsburg empire had Hungary, Czechia, parts of what are modern day Croatia, Italy, Romania, Silesia and Serbia. That entailed an awful lot of people who weren't speaking German as a first language, so a lot of the 'German' Austrians made a point of saying that they were German, a tradition that continued long even after Germany itself was founded.
You still find Austrians saying that they were 'German' in this sense even as recently as the First World War, for that exact reason.

So you are using a very anachronistic approach to discussing the issue.

... Not that it matters anyway. Arch has correctly pointed out many times now that Mozart was born, grew up and enjoyed the patronage of the Archbishopric of Salzburg, which was a most independent state all through his life and remain so for a while afterwards. He was a Salzburger.

Salzburger?

A cheeseburger is a burger with cheese. So a salzburger is a burger with salt?

[Greed and Death]

Neither is correct. He lived in the Holy Roman Empire. Which means he was Roman. Translating to today that means Mozart is Italian.

[Luziyca]

Mozart was clearly Austrian, but this could have all been avoided if the Hohenzollerns never established the German Empire, but instead, it was done by the Habsburgs.

[-Ocelot-]

He was born in the HRE and considered himself German.

He is definitely German.

[Kandorith]

Honestly, i always thought that Mozart was from Austria. I did not know, that people are unsure if he is German or Austria. If he is German, that what other big, famous thing does Austria have?

Falco? Oh cakes!

Erm Alkaline Batteries, slow motion video and Sigmund Freud.

But yea Mozart is Austrian.

[Cetacea]

Mozart was from Guadoloupe

[The Archregimancy]

Arch already spelled that out pretty clearly to the thread. I was just being pedantic forgetting you would be an even bigger pedant

And I had to correct myself in the edit, because Mechelen was its own thing. So I outpedanted myself.

Antwerp was also its own thing at a time, but not that time.

I'll leave it to Arch to even correct me on any of these statements.

Well, my understanding was that De Grote Raad der Nederlanden te Mechelen was an overlapping jurisdiction rather than a fully independent jurisdiction in its own right; but it's a Friday evening and I lack the energy to check.

So you're spared the pedantry.

[The Blaatschapen]

And I had to correct myself in the edit, because Mechelen was its own thing. So I outpedanted myself.

Antwerp was also its own thing at a time, but not that time.

I'll leave it to Arch to even correct me on any of these statements.

Well, my understanding was that De Grote Raad der Nederlanden te Mechelen was an overlapping jurisdiction rather than a fully independent jurisdiction in its own right; but it's a Friday evening and I lack the energy to check.

So you're spared the pedantry.

I was thinking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lordship_of_Mechelen rather than the council which was held there. Of course most of Flanders, Brabant, Mechelen, etc. were all part of the Spanish/Austrian Netherlands.

Anyway, Mozart is clearly Belgian, since in the Belgian comic Suske en Wiske: Het Wondere Wolfje, Mozart speaks fluent Dutch/Flemish, rather than German *nods*