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Capitalism, Communism, or Socialism?...

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Capitalism
41
32%
Communism
11
9%
Socialism/Democratic Socialism
29
23%
State Capitalism/“Controlled Capitalism”
3
2%
Green Socialism
12
9%
Mixed Economy
26
20%
Other
5
4%
 
Total votes : 127

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Nejii
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Capitalism, Communism, or Socialism?...

Postby Nejii » Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:24 am

Image




Economics. A point of heavy debate and argument for centuries now from Adam Smith to David Ricardo to Karl Marx. While there have been numerous economics theories through history, this piece focuses solely on comparing and contrasting capitalism and communism and analyzing their pros and cons. Socialism and democratic socialism are also brought to the table as well.

So let’s start off by identifying each of these four just to make sure that we have a collective understanding. Capitalism is defined as “an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.“ A roofless free market system basically that ultimately can give rise to major corporations and assembly line consumerism. Communism on the other hand is defined as “ which all property is publicly owned and each person works and is paid according to their abilities and needs.” Communism at face seeks to create an equal and casteless society with a working class majority and a ruling class minority.

Now let’s have a look at Socialism and Democratic Socialism. Socialism, like communism, is listed as advocating that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community. So what’s the difference between socialism and communism? The main difference is that socialism is compatible with democracy and liberty. Communism involves creating an 'equal society' through an authoritarian state, which denies basic liberties.

So what is democratic socialism? According to Business Insider: Democratic socialists also believe strongly in democracy and democratic principles. They are by no means proponents of authoritarian government systems many Americans associate socialism with.

As the DSA's website states: "At the root of our socialism is a profound commitment to democracy, as means and end. As we are unlikely to see an immediate end to capitalism tomorrow, DSA fights for reforms today that will weaken the power of corporations and increase the power of working people."

To put it another way, they don't feel socialism should be forced on people, but they are fundamentally anti-capitalist and believe the government should urge privately owned businesses toward granting workers as much control as possible.


Now that we’ve properly defined our four principles, let us now begin to compare and contrast.



Image

America flowered as a capitalist nation roughly in the late eighteen hundreds or early nineteen hundreds. The old saying is that a free market system and private industry built this country, that those with humble beginnings labored and their sweat and determination helped to stand up the “great American empire”. Men such as J.P. Morgan, Henry Ford, John D. Rockefeller, and Andrew Carnegie are idolized by pro-capitalists, inspiring entrepreneurs, and motivated have-nots alike.

As seen in the chart above, arguments for capitalism are that it gives incentive to work and encourages workers, and you have a diverse choice of firms and brands to choose from. And that it prevents a large bureaucratic government from monopolizing the product line. Pro-capitalist say that it gives people the potential to achieve anything as they have the opportunity to reach the stars, provided they have the savvy and are willing to take chances.

Critics of capitalism argue that it allows for monopolies by major corporations so that they may exploit the consumer masses. Examples of this are Amazon, Walmart, Disney, and PEPSICO. Critics also state that capitalism is prone to inequality and leads to a class system in America and that it also ensures corporate bureaucracy, such as dictation in government affairs and influencing media outlets and spreading fake news.

According to Gallup and Washington Post, roughly sixty percent of Americans approve of a capitalist America. At current it is America’s overall choice system.

Image

First developed by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels in the mid-19th century, communism was designed to appeal to the working class and tear down class systems and bureaucracy. Many nations have implemented communism into their regimes over the past century such as China, Laos, former Soviet Russia, Cuba, Yugoslavia, and Vietnam. Communist supporters say that it effectively eliminates wealth gaps and social inequality as their is only the people and the state. Everyone has the same opportunity and everyone can and will have employment.

As there is no private industry to monopolize on goods and services the people will all equally benefit, as it’s supporters state. And a collective patriotism will ensure that the entire country prospers and all its people are well tended to. Critics however state that this rosy image is far from the actuality of a communist state. The state holds all power and critics will quickly reference the worst sides of communism such as corrupt dictators, no actually liberties or freedom, and that the people will alway come second to the whim of the state. Harsh leaders such as Josef Stalin, Fidel Castro, and Kim Jong-un are also used as ammunition against communism as well as the common argument that “the working man is starving to death in communist countries”.

Compared to the roughly sixty percent of pro-capitalist Americans, around thirty-nine percent of Americans approve of some form of Marxist based system in America. Roughly half of which are Millennials and Generation Z’ers. Stats show that less than forty percent of Boomers would approve of a Marxist-based America.

Image

Unlike communism which is based upon an authoritarian state rule, socialism and democratic socialism are strictly founded on the principles of liberty and democracy for the people. Like communism, there is no private industry or corporate climate. Like communism, it is stated to create a more equal society and do away with wealth gaps. Unlike communism, the people in a socialist and DS state would have more power and say in national affairs.

Socialism and DS promise universal healthcare for the nation as well as free education across the spectrum, as well as national cohesion among its populace through a “common agenda/good” approach. Effectively the same patriotism approach as communism though with less totalitarianism. A socialist/DS nation is preached as literally being of the people, by the people, and for the people.

Critics argue that a socialist nation is effectively a “welfare state” and the common argument against socialism, like communism, is there will be little to no work ethic to fuel the needs of an entire nation. “Who wants to break their back with little personal gain?” is a common query among socialist naysayers. High taxation and demanding unions will also overstrain the nation and implode its fragile, skeletal economy critics say. Foreign nations and entrepreneurs will also bypass the fragile country for more lucrative and industrial regions and trade will effectively dry up.

Another favorite go-to argument among critics is that “Marxism has proven that it fails”. They will then point to nations such as North Korea, Venezuela, and Malaysia (Allegedly.). As well as the fall of Soviet Russia and other Marxist states.

Like communism, socialism/DS have a less than forty percent acceptance in the US (According to polls.). With most of its support base being Millennials and Generation Z’ers.





In conclusion, having defined and examined these economic principles, I now open the floor to the rest of you. What would you say is the ideal socio-economic platform? And what do you think America needs? Should we keep the system that the majority (allegedly) of the people say has worked the whole time, or is it time for reform? Capitalism, communism, or socialism?

Open for posts and please vote above! Also, look below for additional material and my sources.



Last edited by Nejii on Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Albrenia » Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:28 am

Democratic Socialism is preferred, but I'd be happy with a Capitalist system that offers proper protections to the poor and needy. Since I can't vote twice though, I chose Democratic Socialism.

Strongly opposed to the authoritarian brand of communism, and to the sort of predatory capitalism that puts profit so far above humanity.

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Postby Nejii » Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:33 am

Albrenia wrote:Democratic Socialism is preferred, but I'd be happy with a Capitalist system that offers proper protections to the poor and needy. Since I can't vote twice though, I chose Democratic Socialism.

Strongly opposed to the authoritarian brand of communism, and to the sort of predatory capitalism that puts profit so far above humanity.


Predatory capitalism to me is when capitalism runs amok. What we’re seeing right now with corporations like Amazon, Disney, EA and others is a fine take of that. Monopolies and economic shilling are the dirtiest kind of capitalism.
Radical centrist tilting more and more to the right (socially)...

The Horst-Wessel-Lied is very catchy.

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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:36 am

Authoritarian socialism. Pursuing communism is a fantasy that'll never pan out, but a state managed economy has been shown to be more than workable in the real world.
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Marcus Aurelius, Meditations 12:28 wrote:To those who ask 'Where then have you seen the gods? What conviction of their existence leads you to this worship of them?', I reply first that they are in fact visible to our eyes. Secondly, and not withstanding, that I have not seen my soul either, and yet I honor it. So it is with the gods too: from my every experience of their power time after time I am certain that they exist, and I revere them.
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Postby Valentine Z » Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:37 am

I do like the benefits of capitalism, in the sense that I get to buy whatever I want, and maybe have a proper business if I wanted to. Just not a fan of "profit above everything else" that vexes me.

Capitalism that protects consumers and businesses alike equally (sometimes, the businesses get the bad end of it, having to deal with absurd requests or complaints), as well as a society that encourages and helps out the needy with a decent amount of welfare. It's just my personal utopia. ♥

(On a side note, I do wish that NSG's OPs as a whole make use of the option to revote. It's interesting to see a trend or a change of mind in the number of votes as the debate goes on! ^^)
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Postby The Greater Gothic Empire » Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:39 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:Authoritarian socialism. Pursuing communism is a fantasy that'll never pan out, but a state managed economy has been shown to be more than workable in the real world.

Obviously, I agree with him.

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Postby Nejii » Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:42 am

Valentine Z wrote:(On a side note, I do wish that NSG's OPs as a whole make use of the option to revote. It's interesting to see a trend or a change of mind in the number of votes as the debate goes on! ^^)


I plan on two or three polls over the life span of this thread so I may do that. Thanks for that :clap:
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Postby Nejii » Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:43 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:Authoritarian socialism. Pursuing communism is a fantasy that'll never pan out, but a state managed economy has been shown to be more than workable in the real world.


Respectfully, give me an example or two.
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The Horst-Wessel-Lied is very catchy.

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Postby Li Jing » Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:54 am

Communism is a flat no. Capitalism has its merits but as it has been stated bureaucratic predatory capitalism is the worst kind. Marxism/Maoism in general isn’t my direction. My father was a Chinese immigrant who fled such a system after all.

I’d say a moderated “ceilinged” capitalism where when corporations get too large or aggressive they’re liquidated or shaved down to size and you have stern moderation of the markets and price gauging.
Last edited by Li Jing on Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:55 am

Nejii wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:Authoritarian socialism. Pursuing communism is a fantasy that'll never pan out, but a state managed economy has been shown to be more than workable in the real world.


Respectfully, give me an example or two.


Pretty much the entire eastern bloc for starters. East Germany in particular is a great example of the system working and working well.
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Marcus Aurelius, Meditations 12:28 wrote:To those who ask 'Where then have you seen the gods? What conviction of their existence leads you to this worship of them?', I reply first that they are in fact visible to our eyes. Secondly, and not withstanding, that I have not seen my soul either, and yet I honor it. So it is with the gods too: from my every experience of their power time after time I am certain that they exist, and I revere them.
Julian the Apostate wrote:I feel awe of the gods, I love, I revere, I venerate them, and in short have precisely the same feelings towards them as one would have towards kind masters or teachers or fathers or guardians or any beings of that sort.

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Postby Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum » Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:58 am

Can Social Liberalism be added to the survey ?
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Postby Nejii » Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:00 am

Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:Can Social Liberalism be added to the survey ?


Social liberalism is more so of a sociological philosophy. This is economics, specifically the age old head-butting contest over capitalism, communism, or socialism.
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The Horst-Wessel-Lied is very catchy.

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Nejii
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Postby Nejii » Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:06 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Nejii wrote:
Respectfully, give me an example or two.


Pretty much the entire eastern bloc for starters. East Germany in particular is a great example of the system working and working well.


The whole of the eastern bloc? Even the likes of Serbia and Cambodia for example?
Last edited by Nejii on Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The Horst-Wessel-Lied is very catchy.

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Postby Dumb Ideologies » Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:10 am

A socialist democracy should not and cannot be organised in the same terms as a liberal democracy. If socialism is the fair way to distribute economic resources then allowing parties to stand that want to abolish socialism is a nonsense because such an administration would be inherently illegitimate.

And so democracy would be more about the administration of things. Ensuring that the various professions, types of worker etc have a say in the overall goals of the economy in a form of "decentralised planning", in appointing an executive to propose laws to be voted on by a body genuinely representative of the composition of the people, and to hold national and regional executives to account. But the ultimate socialist form of the economy will not be up for revision.

This will no doubt seem very contradictory to many people used to the existing system. But liberal democracy enjoyers also hold that every option is legitimate except the destruction of their system.
Last edited by Dumb Ideologies on Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:22 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Tagorford » Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:11 am

Democratic Socialism for the win.

No capitalistic or fascist garbage allowed for any nation I create.

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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:14 am

Nejii wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Pretty much the entire eastern bloc for starters. East Germany in particular is a great example of the system working and working well.


The whole of the eastern bloc? Even the likes of Serbia and Cambodia for example?


Admittedly I'm actually not too versed on Yugoslav/Serbia economics so I can't comment much there.

By Cambodia I assume you're referring to the Khmer Rouge and Democratic Kampuchea?
Last edited by Washington Resistance Army on Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Julian the Apostate wrote:I feel awe of the gods, I love, I revere, I venerate them, and in short have precisely the same feelings towards them as one would have towards kind masters or teachers or fathers or guardians or any beings of that sort.

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Postby Kowani » Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:18 am

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Postby Nouterre » Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:21 am

Anything that doesn't include authoritarism is ok with me, and that's my main issue with communism/socialism
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Postby Servilis » Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:39 am

Socialism because ehh, why not.

I don't really have much critique of Communism.

Communism is based and poggers.

But honestly I prefer Socialism.

Anyways, Capitalism imo is kinda wack.

When I still identified as a Capitalist, I was a State Capitalist.

I've always been a Protectionist.

Regulation is important because it protects the consumer and the worker.

Better to buy an overpriced good that doesn't kill you than buy an underpriced good that bludgeons you.

Better to manufacture a product without dying than manufacture a product and lose all your limbs in the process.

Besides, Flat Taxes are also garbage.

I personally believe that the more money you make, the more money you should give.

People say that Socialism is a great idea until you run out of other peoples money.

The thing is though.... That's not how taxes work.

If the upper class have jobs, then it's unlikely that you'll run out of their money.

Better to have a world where everyone can live at ease rather than live in a world everyone needs to have merit in order to survive.
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Postby Servilis » Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:39 am

Nouterre wrote:Anything that doesn't include authoritarism is ok with me, and that's my main issue with communism/socialism

Why don't you see Capitalism as Authoritarian?
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Postby Nouterre » Thu Oct 22, 2020 4:44 am

Servilis wrote:
Nouterre wrote:Anything that doesn't include authoritarism is ok with me, and that's my main issue with communism/socialism

Why don't you see Capitalism as Authoritarian?

I guess in some cases it can be considered as such but with communism/socialism, authoritarianism is required for it work. People aren't going to willingly hand over their money to the government. Capitalism generally has more freedom.
Last edited by Nouterre on Thu Oct 22, 2020 4:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Travislavania » Thu Oct 22, 2020 4:46 am

communism has a lot of potential, but ofc it will never work
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Postby Nouterre » Thu Oct 22, 2020 4:53 am

I used to vibe with communism/socialism until the thought popped up "Under this economy, what if I worked my a$$ off for my rightfully earned income but it was taken from me and given to a lazy person who refuses to get a job in favour of living off of the government?" enraged me beyond belief. And then I became a libertarian... :lol2:
Nouterre (name is French for our land) is a North American nation located in the North Atlantic Ocean, just east of Canada. Along with it's western neighbour, it was claimed by France but has since become an independent nation. Nouterre has a sizable Acadien population and is known for environmentalism, libertarianism, and irreverence towards religion.

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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Thu Oct 22, 2020 4:55 am

Nouterre wrote:I used to vibe with communism/socialism until the thought popped up "Under this economy, what if I worked my a$$ off for my rightfully earned income but it was taken from me and given to a lazy person who refuses to get a job in favour of living off of the government?" enraged me beyond belief. And then I became a libertarian... :lol2:


I have some bad news for you about what happens to a lot of your money and produced wealth in capitalism.
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Marcus Aurelius, Meditations 12:28 wrote:To those who ask 'Where then have you seen the gods? What conviction of their existence leads you to this worship of them?', I reply first that they are in fact visible to our eyes. Secondly, and not withstanding, that I have not seen my soul either, and yet I honor it. So it is with the gods too: from my every experience of their power time after time I am certain that they exist, and I revere them.
Julian the Apostate wrote:I feel awe of the gods, I love, I revere, I venerate them, and in short have precisely the same feelings towards them as one would have towards kind masters or teachers or fathers or guardians or any beings of that sort.

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Nouterre
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Postby Nouterre » Thu Oct 22, 2020 5:13 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Nouterre wrote:I used to vibe with communism/socialism until the thought popped up "Under this economy, what if I worked my a$$ off for my rightfully earned income but it was taken from me and given to a lazy person who refuses to get a job in favour of living off of the government?" enraged me beyond belief. And then I became a libertarian... :lol2:


I have some bad news for you about what happens to a lot of your money and produced wealth in capitalism.


It happens under socialist programs like welfare.
Nouterre (name is French for our land) is a North American nation located in the North Atlantic Ocean, just east of Canada. Along with it's western neighbour, it was claimed by France but has since become an independent nation. Nouterre has a sizable Acadien population and is known for environmentalism, libertarianism, and irreverence towards religion.

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