The Founding Fathers and Slavery

[Cordel One]

A branch of it, yes. That doesn't mean I idolize him, though.

He was also a racist too.

Marx was a racist. He didn't own or rape slaves so where you're going is false equivalency, but it is important to remember and acknowledge that. He doesn't get a pass for his racism because it was a commonly held belief.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

You guys have founding fathers

Very cool, can’t say the same

No not even a legendary one, nor a mythical one

We have a founder, but I don’t see anyone celebrating him.
Even a mythical Welshman we appropriated gets more attention than the unifier of England.
Same with those involved in creating Great Britain or uniting the crowns of GB and Ireland.

I guess we Brits don’t really celebrate politicians or such but rather war heroes like Winston Churchill or such. I’m just speaking from personal experience though.

For a sec I thought you meant Owen Tudor but then I saw mythical and knew I was wrong.

[Loben III]

He was also a racist too.

Marx was a racist. He didn't own or rape slaves so where you're going is false equivalency, but it is important to remember and acknowledge that. He doesn't get a pass for his racism because it was a commonly held belief.

But he deserves a statue...

[San Lumen]

He was also a racist too.

Marx was a racist. He didn't own or rape slaves so where you're going is false equivalency, but it is important to remember and acknowledge that. He doesn't get a pass for his racism because it was a commonly held belief.

Why does he get a statue but the Washington monument gets torn down? Do we demolish the Jefferson memorial too?

[Loben III]

Marx was a racist. He didn't own or rape slaves so where you're going is false equivalency, but it is important to remember and acknowledge that. He doesn't get a pass for his racism because it was a commonly held belief.

Why does he get a statue but the Washington monument gets torn down? Do we demolish the Jefferson memorial too?

We should also demolish the Vietnam wall while we are at it.

[Cordel One]

And your point is? I'm not proud of him, he made some contributions that I wouldn't mind honoring but we shouldn't worship them put them on any metaphorical pedestals.

Which is what you are doing when you advocate for a statue in his honor.

No, not really.

Should the Washington monument be torn down?

It's too big to move to a museum, so I guess we could rename it after someone who actually did something good and leave it there.

[Aureumterra III]

You guys have founding fathers

Very cool, can’t say the same

No not even a legendary one, nor a mythical one

Weren't your founding fathers the vikings?

Technically we still are vikings, since it was a term to refer to all Scandinavians and descendants

You can’t really honor an entire ethnic group the way you can, say, George Washington, Simon Bolivar, or Vladimir Lenin

Most countries at least have a mythical founder (Ireland, Norway, Japan), we don’t have that either

[Cordel One]

Marx was a racist. He didn't own or rape slaves so where you're going is false equivalency, but it is important to remember and acknowledge that. He doesn't get a pass for his racism because it was a commonly held belief.

But he deserves a statue...

...because he actually made contributions to society worth making a statue for instead of founding some garbage nation.

[Loben III]

Which is what you are doing when you advocate for a statue in his honor.

No, not really.

As pointed out earlier, you said the opposite.

[Albionist Great Britain]

We have a founder, but I don’t see anyone celebrating him.
Even a mythical Welshman we appropriated gets more attention than the unifier of England.
Same with those involved in creating Great Britain or uniting the crowns of GB and Ireland.

I guess we Brits don’t really celebrate politicians or such but rather war heroes like Winston Churchill or such. I’m just speaking from personal experience though.

For a sec I thought you meant Owen Tudor but then I saw mythical and knew I was wrong.

We’ve ironically appropriated King Arthur to the point most people think of England when he’s mentioned, despite him being foretold to expel the English from the lands in their entirety. Personally I don’t mind it, but it is funny. I wish we venerated Æthelstān, as he was a real person and England’s legitimate founder.

[Cordel One]

Why does he get a statue but the Washington monument gets torn down? Do we demolish the Jefferson memorial too?

We should also demolish the Vietnam wall while we are at it.

The wall, yes. The Jefferson memorial can go the same path as the Washington monument.

[Aureumterra III]

But he deserves a statue...

...because he actually made contributions to society worth making a statue for instead of founding some garbage nation.

The ideas of the American founders, one could argue, directly lead to the French Revolution, which in turn lead to the spread of liberalism, which in turn allowed for rapid industrialization and the industrial revolution

[The Two Jerseys]

Weren't your founding fathers the vikings?

Technically we still are vikings, since it was a term to refer to all Scandinavians and descendants

You can’t really honor an entire ethnic group the way you can, say, George Washington, Simon Bolivar, or Vladimir Lenin

Most countries at least have a mythical founder (Ireland, Norway, Japan), we don’t have that either

Not even Ingólfr Arnarson?

[The Lone Alliance]

You take your average person from 1776 and bring them to the modern day and they'll most likely be racist by our standards.

And by their standards we'd be mentally ill.

...because he actually made contributions to society worth making a statue for instead of founding some garbage nation.

He wouldn't have made those contributions to society if it wasn't for the actions of the American Revolution.

[Cordel One]

:ugeek:

No, not really.

As pointed out earlier, you said the opposite.

It really depends. There's a fine line between honoring accomplishments and glorification.

[Loben III]

...because he actually made contributions to society worth making a statue for instead of founding some garbage nation.

The ideas of the American founders, one could argue, directly lead to the French Revolution, which in turn lead to the spread of liberalism, which in turn allowed for rapid industrialization and the industrial revolution

You’re welcome.

[Aureumterra III]

For a sec I thought you meant Owen Tudor but then I saw mythical and knew I was wrong.

We’ve ironically appropriated King Arthur to the point most people think of England when he’s mentioned, despite him being foretold to expel the English from the lands in their entirety. Personally I don’t mind it, but it is funny. I wish we venerated Æthelstān, as he was a real person and England’s legitimate founder.

I mean if you really want to be technical, Claudius was the founder of modern England

[Loben III]

:ugeek:

As pointed out earlier, you said the opposite.

It really depends. There's a fine line between honoring accomplishments and glorification.

A fine line which is often blurred even by yourself.

[Aureumterra III]

Technically we still are vikings, since it was a term to refer to all Scandinavians and descendants

You can’t really honor an entire ethnic group the way you can, say, George Washington, Simon Bolivar, or Vladimir Lenin

Most countries at least have a mythical founder (Ireland, Norway, Japan), we don’t have that either

Not even Ingólfr Arnarson?

No one really thinks of him as a "founder" and builds statues and makes portraits of him

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

For a sec I thought you meant Owen Tudor but then I saw mythical and knew I was wrong.

We’ve ironically appropriated King Arthur to the point most people think of England when he’s mentioned, despite him being foretold to expel the English from the lands in their entirety. Personally I don’t mind it, but it is funny. I wish we venerated Æthelstān, as he was a real person and England’s legitimate founder.

Æthelstan doesn’t get enough credit, yes. And he should. He was quite the king, considering how short his reign was.

[Albionist Great Britain]

...because he actually made contributions to society worth making a statue for instead of founding some garbage nation.

The ideas of the American founders, one could argue, directly lead to the French Revolution, which in turn lead to the spread of liberalism, which in turn allowed for rapid industrialization and the industrial revolution

The American Revolution indirectly benefited humanity in the long term, despite the flaws of the country in question.

[Cordel One]

...because he actually made contributions to society worth making a statue for instead of founding some garbage nation.

The ideas of the American founders, one could argue, directly lead to the French Revolution, which in turn lead to the spread of liberalism, which in turn allowed for rapid industrialization and the industrial revolution

Good thing I don't like the Industrial Revolution.

[Cannot think of a name]

It really depends. There's a fine line between honoring accomplishments and glorification.

A fine line which is often blurred even by yourself.

He seems pretty confident in identifying where that line lies with everyone else, though.

[San Lumen]

We should also demolish the Vietnam wall while we are at it.

The wall, yes. The Jefferson memorial can go the same path as the Washington monument.

What? You want to demolish the Vietnam veterans memorial? What is your rationale for that?

[Cordel One]

It really depends. There's a fine line between honoring accomplishments and glorification.

A fine line which is often blurred even by yourself.

Blurred, but never deliberately crossed.