The Founding Fathers and Slavery

[The Marlborough]

Sooo we can’t idolize our politicians, our countries, our ideals and so on....

Just what CAN we feel pride about?

How about your own accomplishments instead of those of some dead racists 200+ years ago?

People do not exist in a void and will always form groups. They will pride themselves on the accomplishments of pillars of said group as way to form a shared history, identity, and sense of collective worth.

[Greater Malegron]

But somehow I’m the sexist.

Gonna be honest, I can't tell if you're agreeing with me or not. But given how we're on the same side of the argument, I assume agreement.

People are calling me sexist because somehow they think that citing biology as to why men are violent is equivalent to saying women are unable to have civilization.

[Cannot think of a name]

Therefore everyone was a racist and sexist to you.

If you did you wouldn't be saying the things you are. You'd understand the context and why we didn't get everything in 1787. The Founding Fathers put together a heck of a government. I doubt you could have come up with something better had you been at the convention that would have appeased all regions and prevented a dissolution.

Just about everyone in the US in 1787 was both racist and sexist.

Yeah well, they also thought demons flew up your nose when you sneezed and stump water cured warts. Congratulations, you’ve discovered that societies evolve. Not sure why you keep wanting a medal for it, though.

[Albionist Great Britain]

Idolizing politicians is dumb anyways. Try to name one leader that was absolutely scandal free and benevolent to every life they affected. Go ahead. I'll wait.

Sooo we can’t idolize our politicians, our countries, our ideals and so on....

Just what CAN we feel pride about?

The collective pride from having been world hegemons and being part of the collective history of one’s people. Like the conquest of India or Dresden for me, as I’m British.

[Loben III]

Sooo we can’t idolize our politicians, our countries, our ideals and so on....

Just what CAN we feel pride about?

How about your own accomplishments instead of those of some dead racists 200+ years ago?

Considering what kind of Person Karl Marx was, this post is just fucking hilarious.

[Cordel One]

How about your own accomplishments instead of those of some dead racists 200+ years ago?

Considering what kind of Person Karl Marx was, this post is just fucking hilarious.

I don't idolize Karl Marx, he was just another person. He made some good contributions to political theory, but I don't see him as any sort of idol.

[Loben III]

Considering what kind of Person Karl Marx was, this post is just fucking hilarious.

I don't idolize Karl Marx, he was just another person. He made some good contributions to political theory, but I don't see him as any sort of idol.

youre a follower of the ideology he created, are you not?

[Cannot think of a name]

Considering what kind of Person Karl Marx was, this post is just fucking hilarious.

I don't idolize Karl Marx, he was just another person. He made some good contributions to political theory, but I don't see him as any sort of idol.

One would hope with how easily your admiration for specific accomplishments of an individual was interpreted as idiolization it would cause one to reflect on their own characterizations of people and perhaps engage with the idea that you are not the only one able to hold complex feelings.

But this is NSG and I suspect that level of empathy and self reflection will be a bridge too far.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

I don't idolize Karl Marx, he was just another person. He made some good contributions to political theory, but I don't see him as any sort of idol.

One would hope with how easily your admiration for specific accomplishments of an individual was interpreted as idiolization it would cause one to reflect on their own characterizations of people and perhaps engage with the idea that you are not the only one able to hold complex feelings.

But this is NSG and I suspect that level of empathy and self reflection will be a bridge too far.

It’s a bit odd, I must say. Seeing as it’s normal for people to have heroes or people they idolize who are vilified by others. Asking not to do that is strange, to say the least.

[Kathol Rift]

Gonna be honest, I can't tell if you're agreeing with me or not. But given how we're on the same side of the argument, I assume agreement.

People are calling me sexist because somehow they think that citing biology as to why men are violent is equivalent to saying women are unable to have civilization.

No, they aren’t equivalent. They are both sexist though, because believe it or not, discriminating against one gender is sexist, regardless of whether they are biologically dispositioned to be more aggressive due to their role in survival tens of thousands of years ago.

[Aureumterra III]

Considering what kind of Person Karl Marx was, this post is just fucking hilarious.

I don't idolize Karl Marx, he was just another person. He made some good contributions to political theory, but I don't see him as any sort of idol.

Out of curiosity, which historical figures should be honored with monuments if any?

Karl Marx, Rosa Luxemburg, Malcolm X, Peter Kropotkin, W.E.B. Dubois, Eugene V. Debs, etc

[The Two Jerseys]

Proof that George Washington is literally Hitler!

Look close enough you can see the mustache!

It's funny because the shadow does look like a Hitler mustache...

[Resilient Acceleration]

Is having your founding fathers being imperfect really that bad? My country's founding father was a corrupt, megalomaniacal, incompetent, womanizing dictator with 9 wives, one of them is a spy planted by a Japanese corporation to influence Indonesian investment laws. Compared to him, Washington et al are hypersaints. Yet we still celebrate him as our founding father, because his ideals (at least in his early years) are actually really good and has become the foundation of our diverse country to this day. He also, against all odds, did united the almost disintegrating archipelago and successfully secured our independence –one of the first in Asia and Africa– through armed struggle and diplomacy. That aspect of him is what we celebrate.

[San Lumen]

Therefore everyone was a racist and sexist to you.

If you did you wouldn't be saying the things you are. You'd understand the context and why we didn't get everything in 1787. The Founding Fathers put together a heck of a government. I doubt you could have come up with something better had you been at the convention that would have appeased all regions and prevented a dissolution.

Just about everyone in the US in 1787 was both racist and sexist.

By today’s standards. No one was thinking about women’s suffrage in 1787. The idea of women’s rights didn’t get widespread attention in the US until 1848 with the Seneca falls convention.

[Aureumterra III]

Is having your founding fathers being imperfect really that bad? My country's founding father was a corrupt, megalomaniacal, incompetent, womanizing dictator with 9 wives, one of them is a spy planted by a Japanese corporation to influence Indonesian investment laws. Compared to him, Washington et al are hypersaints. Yet we still celebrate him as our founding father, because his ideals (at least in his early years) are actually really good and has become the foundation of our diverse country to this day. He also, against all odds, did united the almost disintegrating archipelago and successfully secured our independence –one of the first in Asia and Africa– through armed struggle and diplomacy. That aspect of him is what we celebrate.

You guys have founding fathers

Very cool, can’t say the same

No not even a legendary one, nor a mythical one

[Loben III]

I don't idolize Karl Marx, he was just another person. He made some good contributions to political theory, but I don't see him as any sort of idol.

Karl Marx, Rosa Luxemburg, Malcolm X, Peter Kropotkin, W.E.B. Dubois, Eugene V. Debs, etc

(Scene chewing laughter)

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Is having your founding fathers being imperfect really that bad? My country's founding father was a corrupt, megalomaniacal, incompetent, womanizing dictator with 9 wives, one of them is a spy planted by a Japanese corporation to influence Indonesian investment laws. Compared to him, Washington et al are hypersaints. Yet we still celebrate him as our founding father, because his ideals (at least in his early years) are actually really good and has become the foundation of our diverse country to this day. He also, against all odds, did united the almost disintegrating archipelago and successfully secured our independence –one of the first in Asia and Africa– through armed struggle and diplomacy. That aspect of him is what we celebrate.

To answer you: no, it’s not bad to see people, even those we deem heroes, as what they are or were, human and flawed.

[Cordel One]

I don't idolize Karl Marx, he was just another person. He made some good contributions to political theory, but I don't see him as any sort of idol.

youre a follower of the ideology he created, are you not?

A branch of it, yes. That doesn't mean I idolize him, though.

[The Hindustani State]

Is having your founding fathers being imperfect really that bad? My country's founding father was a corrupt, megalomaniacal, incompetent, womanizing dictator with 9 wives, one of them is a spy planted by a Japanese corporation to influence Indonesian investment laws. Compared to him, Washington et al are hypersaints. Yet we still celebrate him as our founding father, because his ideals (at least in his early years) are actually really good and has become the foundation of our diverse country to this day. He also, against all odds, did united the almost disintegrating archipelago and successfully secured our independence –one of the first in Asia and Africa– through armed struggle and diplomacy. That aspect of him is what we celebrate.

I agree, even our main founding father was a racist pedophilic sex maniac, but we idolize him because of his teachings, the other main founding father worked with Hitler and Tojo but we idolize him because he built up an army to fight for freedom

[Loben III]

youre a follower of the ideology he created, are you not?

A branch of it, yes. That doesn't mean I idolize him, though.

Although as pointed out you think that Marx should be honored with a statue.

[Cordel One]

(Scene chewing laughter)

And your point is? I'm not proud of him, he made some contributions that I wouldn't mind honoring but we shouldn't worship them put them on any metaphorical pedestals.

[San Lumen]

youre a follower of the ideology he created, are you not?

A branch of it, yes. That doesn't mean I idolize him, though.

He was also a racist too.

[Albionist Great Britain]

Is having your founding fathers being imperfect really that bad? My country's founding father was a corrupt, megalomaniacal, incompetent, womanizing dictator with 9 wives, one of them is a spy planted by a Japanese corporation to influence Indonesian investment laws. Compared to him, Washington et al are hypersaints. Yet we still celebrate him as our founding father, because his ideals (at least in his early years) are actually really good and has become the foundation of our diverse country to this day. He also, against all odds, did united the almost disintegrating archipelago and successfully secured our independence –one of the first in Asia and Africa– through armed struggle and diplomacy. That aspect of him is what we celebrate.

You guys have founding fathers

Very cool, can’t say the same

No not even a legendary one, nor a mythical one

We have a founder, but I don’t see anyone celebrating him.
Even a mythical Welshman we appropriated gets more attention than the unifier of England.
Same with those involved in creating Great Britain or uniting the crowns of GB and Ireland.

I guess we Brits don’t really celebrate politicians or such but rather war heroes like Winston Churchill or such. I’m just speaking from personal experience though.

[Loben III]

(Scene chewing laughter)

And your point is? I'm not proud of him, he made some contributions that I wouldn't mind honoring but we shouldn't worship them put them on any metaphorical pedestals.

Which is what you are doing when you advocate for a statue in his honor.

Should the Washington monument be torn down?

[Borderlands of Rojava]

Is having your founding fathers being imperfect really that bad? My country's founding father was a corrupt, megalomaniacal, incompetent, womanizing dictator with 9 wives, one of them is a spy planted by a Japanese corporation to influence Indonesian investment laws. Compared to him, Washington et al are hypersaints. Yet we still celebrate him as our founding father, because his ideals (at least in his early years) are actually really good and has become the foundation of our diverse country to this day. He also, against all odds, did united the almost disintegrating archipelago and successfully secured our independence –one of the first in Asia and Africa– through armed struggle and diplomacy. That aspect of him is what we celebrate.

You guys have founding fathers

Very cool, can’t say the same

No not even a legendary one, nor a mythical one

Weren't your founding fathers the vikings?