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Japan to release 1m tonnes of contaminated Fukushima water i

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-Ocelot-
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby -Ocelot- » Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:00 pm

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
Mercatus wrote:They should bottle that shit up and sell it. What a waste of good radioactive elements.


I was thinking that. If the anti-fission people want to keep the stuff from being released into the environment, maybe they'd like to buy some and take care of it themselves?

  • Convenient sizes of containers (1l 2l 4l) filled with radioactive water.
  • Frozen to reduce the risk of spillage in air-freight.
  • Must be (refrigerated) air-freight, due to high risk of rail or ship.
  • Kept frozen at the airport, and during delivery by courier.
  • Customer is advised to keep bottled radioactive water frozen.
  • Customer is advised to return water for re-bottling every five years.

Then send them a bill for the carbon emissions.


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Sanghyeok
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Sanghyeok » Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:01 pm

TEPCO is terrible, but this decision shouldn't be overblown.
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Nanatsu no Tsuki
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:04 pm

Sanghyeok wrote:TEPCO is terrible, but this decision shouldn't be overblown.


I was alarmed at first but after I read what they’re going to do with the contaminated water, what they’re extracting from it first, and the elongated timespan of release (it’s over several years) into the sea, I calmed down.
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Nobel Hobos 2
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Ex-Nation

Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:42 pm

-Ocelot- wrote:
Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
I was thinking that. If the anti-fission people want to keep the stuff from being released into the environment, maybe they'd like to buy some and take care of it themselves?

  • Convenient sizes of containers (1l 2l 4l) filled with radioactive water.
  • Frozen to reduce the risk of spillage in air-freight.
  • Must be (refrigerated) air-freight, due to high risk of rail or ship.
  • Kept frozen at the airport, and during delivery by courier.
  • Customer is advised to keep bottled radioactive water frozen.
  • Customer is advised to return water for re-bottling every five years.

Then send them a bill for the carbon emissions.


Self-respecting activists don't pay for their beliefs. They force others to pay for their beliefs.





OK? But bear in mind that you're validating my point about climate change denialists!
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Borderlands of Rojava
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:42 pm

As if 2020 couldn't get more fucked lmfao.
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Nevertopia
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Postby Nevertopia » Tue Oct 20, 2020 5:59 pm

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:As if 2020 couldn't get more fucked lmfao.

it just keeps on giving
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Borderlands of Rojava
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Tue Oct 20, 2020 6:00 pm

Nevertopia wrote:
Borderlands of Rojava wrote:As if 2020 couldn't get more fucked lmfao.

it just keeps on giving


Theyre gonna make Godzilla happen frfr.
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"The devil is out there. Hiding behind every corner and in every nook and cranny. In all of the dives, all over the city. Before you lays an entire world of enemies, and at day's end when the chips are down, we're a society of strangers. You cant walk by someone on the street anymore without crossing the road to get away from their stare. Welcome to the Twilight Zone. The land of plague and shadow. Nothing innocent survives this world. If it can't corrupt you, it'll kill you."

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Andsed
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Andsed » Tue Oct 20, 2020 6:04 pm

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:As if 2020 couldn't get more fucked lmfao.

Not really. As others as already pointed out this is not that big of a deal.
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Northwest Slobovia
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Anarchy

Postby Northwest Slobovia » Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:42 pm

Shanghai industrial complex wrote:Japan’s government has reportedly decided to release more than 1m tonnes of contaminated water from the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant into the sea, setting it on a collision course with local fishermen who say the move will destroy their industry.

Media reports said work to release the water, which is being stored in more than 1,000 tanks, would begin in 2022 at the earliest and would take decades to complete.

Let's see... a cubic meter of water weighs a ton, so a million tons would make a block of water a 100m on a side. Just slightly smaller than the Pacific ocean. :p Even released over a single decade, it's less than a drop in the bucket. And all it contains is a little tritium, with a half-life of just over a decade? That's not a threat to the Japanese fisheries industry, that's just typical nuclear hysteria.

Shanghai industrial complex wrote:By the way, scientists believe that the water will reach the west coast of the United States through ocean currents
[...]
http://www.allgov.com/usa/ca/news/calif ... ews=852554

You do know that's an article from 2014, right? So it has nothing to do with this plan, and by now, simply reflects the status quo.

Nor will the water from this release flow as a unit, it will disperse throughout the Pacific long before it gets anywhere near the US. Sure, traces will show up, but traces of tritium show up everywhere.
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Nobel Hobos 2
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Ex-Nation

Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:36 pm

Northwest Slobovia wrote:
Shanghai industrial complex wrote:Japan’s government has reportedly decided to release more than 1m tonnes of contaminated water from the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant into the sea, setting it on a collision course with local fishermen who say the move will destroy their industry.

Media reports said work to release the water, which is being stored in more than 1,000 tanks, would begin in 2022 at the earliest and would take decades to complete.

Let's see... a cubic meter of water weighs a ton, so a million tons would make a block of water a 100m on a side. Just slightly smaller than the Pacific ocean. :p Even released over a single decade, it's less than a drop in the bucket. And all it contains is a little tritium, with a half-life of just over a decade? That's not a threat to the Japanese fisheries industry, that's just typical nuclear hysteria.

Shanghai industrial complex wrote:By the way, scientists believe that the water will reach the west coast of the United States through ocean currents
[...]
http://www.allgov.com/usa/ca/news/calif ... ews=852554

You do know that's an article from 2014, right? So it has nothing to do with this plan, and by now, simply reflects the status quo.

Nor will the water from this release flow as a unit, it will disperse throughout the Pacific long before it gets anywhere near the US. Sure, traces will show up, but traces of tritium show up everywhere.


Good to see you, old-timer!

If that much water was released all once, near or at the coast of Japan, it would pose more risk to Japanese (coastal) fisheries. The assumption that it would become quickly diluted in the whole ocean is not at all sound.

Chemically it's just water (salty or fresh makes a difference though) and wouldn't get any benefit of osmosis if it's salty. On the other hand if it's fresh it would spread more surface-wise than down into the greater volume of the deep ocean. In either case it wouldn't mix with the ocean other than by currents and eddies.

How does spreading the release out over time help? It prevents any one fish from getting a dose of isotopes sufficient to spoil it as food. The total amount accumulating in all fish over "decades" will be the same, but the likely amount in any one person's fish dinner will be much less.

"Decades" still seems overly cautious? Remember that table-sized fish are generally predators, so they accumulate isotopes from smaller fish, who accumulate, etc, down to plankton or krill. I don't know how long that takes (biology of any sort being a thin subject of mine) but it could well be a decade.



As I understand it, Tritium is considered low-risk mainly because of its short half-life. Levels that could cause long-term harm (and early death typically from cancer) are detectable in food, water or air, and lower levels aren't a huge problem unless they're very sustained. Because of the short half-life.
Maybe I'm wrong about that, but pressing on with my weakest subject ...

Hydrogen is the most common element (numerically) in the human body. So right away we can guess that a small number of Tritium atoms are not going to pose the sort of risk that the same number of Calcium atoms would.

Hydrogen is so common because of the high water content of the body? Isn't it likely that most Tritium entering the body would be part of a water molecule, and almost always spend its time in the body being part of the blood. Maybe biochemical processes have to split the water to get useful Hydrogen, and that ends up in cells (which aren't ever-lasting anyway, except in nerves), but still most of the Tritium is going to leave the body again in pee. Does this sound right?
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Aclion
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Founded: Apr 12, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Aclion » Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:50 pm

Valrifell wrote:
Senkaku wrote:unfortunately no one in the media in any country seems to understand what radioactive contamination is or how it works


Nuclear physics is hard, ok.

Co.e on its not rocket science.... except when it is
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Northwest Slobovia
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Anarchy

Postby Northwest Slobovia » Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:57 pm

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:If that much water was released all once, near or at the coast of Japan, it would pose more risk to Japanese (coastal) fisheries. The assumption that it would become quickly diluted in the whole ocean is not at all sound.

I didn't say quickly diluted, I said diluted long before it reached the US.

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:Chemically it's just water (salty or fresh makes a difference though) and wouldn't get any benefit of osmosis if it's salty. On the other hand if it's fresh it would spread more surface-wise than down into the greater volume of the deep ocean. In either case it wouldn't mix with the ocean other than by currents and eddies.

What, Brownian motion and resultant diffusion have stopped suddenly? :P

Basically, there are two extreme cases: the water moves as unit, or the water diffuses to equilibrium with the Pacific instantly. Both are aphysical, but they're also equally harmless. So, I'm having trouble believing the intermediate cases are harmful, because...

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:How does spreading the release out over time help? It prevents any one fish from getting a dose of isotopes sufficient to spoil it as food. The total amount accumulating in all fish over "decades" will be the same, but the likely amount in any one person's fish dinner will be much less.

"Decades" still seems overly cautious? Remember that table-sized fish are generally predators, so they accumulate isotopes from smaller fish, who accumulate, etc, down to plankton or krill. I don't know how long that takes (biology of any sort being a thin subject of mine) but it could well be a decade.

Even if it was a fast process, you'd have to assume all the prey is staying where the tritium is, which is to say in the extremes, either drifting with the current or chasing after the tritium-laced water. While stuff at the bottom of the food chain does drift, nothing in the middle does, so not a threat. And the critters aren't gonna go tritium hunting. The reality is somewhere in the middle -- some of the water does get entrained with the current, some of the water diffuses around the edges -- but most prey doesn't either drift with the current or move randomly. So, I'm simply not seeing it.

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:As I understand it, Tritium is considered low-risk mainly because of its short half-life. Levels that could cause long-term harm (and early death typically from cancer) are detectable in food, water or air, and lower levels aren't a huge problem unless they're very sustained. Because of the short half-life.
Maybe I'm wrong about that, but pressing on with my weakest subject ...

Shortish half-life and doesn't bio-accumulate, yes. And yes, for practical purposes, almost always bound as water, so in one end, out the other relatively quickly. Which also happens in fish and their prey, so again, not a real problem: tritium isn't like e.g. mercury, which does accumulate.
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Mercatus
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Corporate Police State

Postby Mercatus » Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:14 am

Some people: 0h n0 nukey water will kill all teh fishes!

Other people: Nah it'll be fine.

Me:

Image

How does NSG feel about the selling of Fukushima bottled water? Yes? No? Would you drink it?
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