2020 US General Election Thread X: For Those About to Vote

[Shrillland]

Many of the people who've voted for Trump are disillusioned former left-voters .

I'm going to stop you right here because no, that's not what happened.

It is in the crucial states that gave him the victory. I saw quite a few places here in Illinois that always voted Democratic before then vote for him, most of which were old industrial communities that had lost patience.

[West Leas Oros 2]

Again, cool it with the strawmen.

Cutting through the bullshit isn't "strawmen". We all know full well that when the right talks about dropping "the whole culture war thing", they mean that the Democrats should stop advocating for the rights of trans people, of gay people, of Black people, of women.

Good thing I'm not the Right.

[West Leas Oros 2]

I'm going to stop you right here because no, that's not what happened.

It is in the crucial states that gave him the victory. I saw quite a few places here in Illinois that always voted Democratic before then vote for him, most of which were old industrial communities that had lost patience.

See Also: The Rust Belt

[Valrifell]

I'm going to stop you right here because no, that's not what happened.

It is in the crucial states that gave him the victory. I saw quite a few places here in Illinois that always voted Democratic before then vote for him, most of which were old industrial communities that had lost patience.

Sorry, I cut off the quote too soon. The bullshit that they were fed up about the Democrats perpetuating culture war issues so they fled to the totally materialistic GOP is absolute hogshit, that much should be self-evident given all the fearmongering they do over social issues.

But there's also the fact that Union household members didn't swing for Trump so much as not vote for Clinton, this is also well documented and oft overlooked. Say it with me: his margins didn't increase, but her's dropped, a lot. "Disillusioned union members voted for Trump and if the Dems abandoned the minorities they'd do better" is not only a nefarious message, it's also wrong.

[Valrifell]

It is in the crucial states that gave him the victory. I saw quite a few places here in Illinois that always voted Democratic before then vote for him, most of which were old industrial communities that had lost patience.

See Also: The Rust Belt

Illinois is part of the rust belt.

[Shrillland]

It is in the crucial states that gave him the victory. I saw quite a few places here in Illinois that always voted Democratic before then vote for him, most of which were old industrial communities that had lost patience.

Sorry, I cut off the quote too soon. The bullshit that they were fed up about the Democrats perpetuating culture war issues so they fled to the totally materialistic GOP is absolute hogshit, that much should be self-evident given all the fearmongering they do over social issues.

But there's also the fact that Union household members didn't swing for Trump so much as not vote for Clinton, this is also well documented and oft overlooked. Say it with me: his margins didn't increase, but her's dropped, a lot. "Disillusioned union members voted for Trump and if the Dems abandoned the minorities they'd do better" is not only a nefarious message, it's also wrong.

That is also true, yes. And now it looks like they're coming back home.

[Ifreann]

Cutting through the bullshit isn't "strawmen". We all know full well that when the right talks about dropping "the whole culture war thing", they mean that the Democrats should stop advocating for the rights of trans people, of gay people, of Black people, of women.

Good thing I'm not the Right.

Who said you were? The post that you suggested was a misrepresentation was not addressed to you.

[Cannot think of a name]

This is kind of a weaselly way to say “If the Democrats would just stop giving a shit about minorities and marginalized people we’d get a slight adjustment of the tax code!”

It also ignores that a huge part of the Democratic base are minority voters and marginalized groups if for no other reason than they’re the major party that isn’t actively shitting all over them.

The secret to Democratic Party success is not to become a photo negative of a libertarian, that notion starts to fall apart as soon as you examine it.

The Democratic Party is shitting on them. Maybe not as actively as the Republicans, but at the end of the day, they're still protecting the economic system that shits on all of us, every day. Your strawman is noted, and discarded.

First of all, whining about fallacies in general demonstrates a lack of understanding of fallacies and why you learn them.

They are not a 'foul' card you get to call that gives you the point. They are types of arguments to avoid because they contain logical flaws. For instance, calling out a perceived fallacy without addressing it. This has not made your point or even materially addressed the argument you oppose, just your random thought that it was fallacious.

In order for it to be a strawman I would have had to create a position for the other person to hold and then argue against that as if they had made that argument.

Your argument is that vague and undefined 'economic system' 'shits on all of us everyday'. It's worth noting that this is not the argument of the person I was addressing. It was one of those wide view hipster bullshit platitudes that doesn't actually say anything that pretends to be above the fray by not really addressing anything at all. I've said this to others, unless you're going to get to the level of 90 minute performance piece on how grass is a classist assault meant to control poor people, you're not going to impress me with how broken you think society is...because I willingly sat through a 90 minute performance art piece about how grass is a classist assault meant to control poor people. You want to impress me with your high minded view of society...you gotta bring it, man. "Oh no the economic system is bad" is amateur hour. It's wearing the jersey of the team you like, it's not taking the field.

Your longview notion of 'shitting on' was not the person I was responding to's position. Their position was to embrace left leaning economic ideas and abandon social issues (ie civil rights) they would win. I was challenging that idea based on the Republican Party not relying on vague notions of the 'economic system shitting on us all' to shit on marginalized groups, but actively shitting on marginalized groups like denying marriage rights to same sex couples, disenfranchising black and poor voters...stuff where we don't have to draw big circles.

This was not a strawman, but rather addressing their premise. You came in with your too wide to be considered worth discussion view and then felt that somehow you assigning someone else that argument constituted me using a strawman.

Hopefully you now realize how silly that was.

[San Lumen]

Sorry, I cut off the quote too soon. The bullshit that they were fed up about the Democrats perpetuating culture war issues so they fled to the totally materialistic GOP is absolute hogshit, that much should be self-evident given all the fearmongering they do over social issues.

But there's also the fact that Union household members didn't swing for Trump so much as not vote for Clinton, this is also well documented and oft overlooked. Say it with me: his margins didn't increase, but her's dropped, a lot. "Disillusioned union members voted for Trump and if the Dems abandoned the minorities they'd do better" is not only a nefarious message, it's also wrong.

That is also true, yes. And now it looks like they're coming back home.

I think that's a fair statement. I think Biden is going to return to Obama era levels in Upstate New York for example.

[West Leas Oros 2]

See Also: The Rust Belt

Illinois is part of the rust belt.

Sure, but we see a similar trend throughout the rest of the rustbelt. In any case, I don't see any purpose behind correcting a simple mistake outside of trying to score a cheap gotcha and act smug.

[No State Here]

Most of the American working class electorate is socially very conservative and economically left, if the Democrats dropped the whole culture war thing, along with gun control, they would succeed with that demographic. Other demographics seem to be getting increasingly libertarian, small business owners, middle class, etc.

"If you just throw vulnerable minorities under the bus then you could get power"
Very useful advice from the right, definitely worth considering.

You’d think if throwing minorities under the bus was on the agenda, I’d be the first one to oppose it being a minority myself. But the reality is, both parties are doing exactly that, which is why I oppose both

[Valrifell]

"If you just throw vulnerable minorities under the bus then you could get power"
Very useful advice from the right, definitely worth considering.

You’d think if throwing minorities under the bus was on the agenda, I’d be the first one to oppose it being a minority myself.

No, I wouldn't think that. You're not all minorities.

[Valrifell]

Illinois is part of the rust belt.

Sure, but we see a similar trend throughout the rest of the rustbelt. In any case, I don't see any purpose behind correcting a simple mistake outside of trying to score a cheap gotcha and act smug.

Listen, if I was trying to act smug you would definitely know.

[No State Here]

You’d think if throwing minorities under the bus was on the agenda, I’d be the first one to oppose it being a minority myself.

No, I wouldn't think that. You're not all minorities.

I know that, I have huge political disagreements with many of my family members (and not in the way you’d think, a few of my uncles and cousins who live in the South vote GOP, confusing, I know)

[West Leas Oros 2]

Good thing I'm not the Right.

Who said you were? The post that you suggested was a misrepresentation was not addressed to you.

This is NSG, people lump each other together all the time. You expect me to not come to the defense of someone who is saying what i'm saying, even if his interpretation of those words is different? Of course not. But alright, I apologize for mistaking the response as a response to me. In my own case, what say you when a leftist talks of dropping the "culture war thing"?

[West Leas Oros 2]

Sure, but we see a similar trend throughout the rest of the rustbelt. In any case, I don't see any purpose behind correcting a simple mistake outside of trying to score a cheap gotcha and act smug.

Listen, if I was trying to act smug you would definitely know.

Again, on NSG, it's assumed smug until proven humble.

[Ifreann]

"If you just throw vulnerable minorities under the bus then you could get power"
Very useful advice from the right, definitely worth considering.

You’d think if throwing minorities under the bus was on the agenda, I’d be the first one to oppose it being a minority myself.

It is hardly unprecedented for some members of minority groups to find that their interests align more closely with the capitalists than the workers.

But the reality is, both parties are doing exactly that

That's true, but the difference is that where Democrats want more women CEOs and to leave working class women to bootstrap themselves into the boardroom, Republicans want women barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

Sure, but we see a similar trend throughout the rest of the rustbelt. In any case, I don't see any purpose behind correcting a simple mistake outside of trying to score a cheap gotcha and act smug.

Listen, if I was trying to act smug you would definitely know.

I'm being smug right now.

[Northern Davincia]

The people who are making the term "fascist" useless are people who make this argument. If the only people we call fascists are the ones openly heiling Hitler or calling for an immediate race war or whatever, then the other fascists need only behave a little better in public, keep the heiling private, and they'll be able to build support for fascism by a different name. Remember when Richard Spencer was getting fawning write ups in the media? Fucker puts on a suit and gels his hair and people fail to realise that the ethno-state he wants would necessarily require genocide. Everyone who was calling Spencer a fascist were right, and everyone making this "Ugh, don't you leftos know that you can't just call everyone a fascist" were only helping Spencer get away with being a fascist.

Trying to equate Richard Spencer with most Republicans is intellectually dishonest. If you genuinely believe that tens of millions of Americans are sympathetic to fascism, the battle is already lost. The reality is that fascism has a strict definition, given by its creators Evola and Mussolini. You are free to point out authoritarian tendencies but don't act like we're reliving the 1930s.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

Who said you were? The post that you suggested was a misrepresentation was not addressed to you.

This is NSG, people lump each other together all the time. You expect me to not come to the defense of someone who is saying what i'm saying, even if his interpretation of those words is different? Of course not. But alright, I apologize for mistaking the response as a response to me. In my own case, what say you when a leftist talks of dropping the "culture war thing"?

I'd say they are complacent in a war that has hardly begun. Though they may be on a salient of the front where it doesn't even feel like a war.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

The people who are making the term "fascist" useless are people who make this argument. If the only people we call fascists are the ones openly heiling Hitler or calling for an immediate race war or whatever, then the other fascists need only behave a little better in public, keep the heiling private, and they'll be able to build support for fascism by a different name. Remember when Richard Spencer was getting fawning write ups in the media? Fucker puts on a suit and gels his hair and people fail to realise that the ethno-state he wants would necessarily require genocide. Everyone who was calling Spencer a fascist were right, and everyone making this "Ugh, don't you leftos know that you can't just call everyone a fascist" were only helping Spencer get away with being a fascist.

Trying to equate Richard Spencer with most Republicans is intellectually dishonest. If you genuinely believe that tens of millions of Americans are sympathetic to fascism, the battle is already lost. The reality is that fascism has a strict definition, given by its creators Evola and Mussolini. You are free to point out authoritarian tendencies but don't act like we're reliving the 1930s.

The core of Ifreann's post seems to be that Richard Spencer is a fascist, even though he doesn't dress like one.

*cough-OswaldMosley-cough*

Is Richard Spencer a fascist, by the "strict definition" you prescribe?

[West Leas Oros 2]

This is NSG, people lump each other together all the time. You expect me to not come to the defense of someone who is saying what i'm saying, even if his interpretation of those words is different? Of course not. But alright, I apologize for mistaking the response as a response to me. In my own case, what say you when a leftist talks of dropping the "culture war thing"?

I'd say they are complacent in a war that has hardly begun. Though they may be on a salient of the front where it doesn't even feel like a war.

From where I'm standing, it seems to me the combatants are: the Twitter mob, Literally Hitler, some weirdos like the NoI or some other strange group like that, well meaning lefties, Le Epic Anti-SJW "classical liberals", and civilians caught in the crossfire. There are likely other combatants, such as smaller "militias and guerrillas", but ultimately, this war has taken it's toll. Why I want this war dropped is because at heart, I consider myself a peacenik in the culture war. Make Culture Love, Not Culture War!

[Nobel Hobos 2]

I'd say they are complacent in a war that has hardly begun. Though they may be on a salient of the front where it doesn't even feel like a war.

From where I'm standing, it seems to me the combatants are: the Twitter mob, Literally Hitler, some weirdos like the NoI or some other strange group like that, well meaning lefties, Le Epic Anti-SJW "classical liberals", and civilians caught in the crossfire. There are likely other combatants, such as smaller "militias and guerrillas", but ultimately, this war has taken it's toll. Why I want this war dropped is because at heart, I consider myself a peacenik in the culture war. Make Culture Love, Not Culture War!

It feels like love to the winners. But it feels like war to the losers. It's a funny kind of war.

[West Leas Oros 2]

From where I'm standing, it seems to me the combatants are: the Twitter mob, Literally Hitler, some weirdos like the NoI or some other strange group like that, well meaning lefties, Le Epic Anti-SJW "classical liberals", and civilians caught in the crossfire. There are likely other combatants, such as smaller "militias and guerrillas", but ultimately, this war has taken it's toll. Why I want this war dropped is because at heart, I consider myself a peacenik in the culture war. Make Culture Love, Not Culture War!

It feels like love to the winners. But it feels like war to the losers. It's a funny kind of war.

That it does. I'm just hoping i'll be home by Christmas.

[Vassenor]

"If you just throw vulnerable minorities under the bus then you could get power"
Very useful advice from the right, definitely worth considering.

You’d think if throwing minorities under the bus was on the agenda, I’d be the first one to oppose it being a minority myself. But the reality is, both parties are doing exactly that, which is why I oppose both

So which minorities are the Dems throwing under the proverbial bus?