2020 US General Election Thread X: For Those About to Vote

[West Leas Oros 2]

I'd argue that fascism sounds enticing to people who feel rejected and desperate. To act like "they are terrible bad people and fascist" is ridiculous. They've been conned and swindled by a plutocrat and his cadre.

What happens oftentimes is emotionally charged partisanship gets in the way of nuance, it’s easier to justify voting against someone if you paint their support base as being entirely racist and fascist

I'd argue that it's in Trump supporters' best interests to abandon ship and build a movement that actually gets them what they want. Problem is, most people don't know what they want.

[Dumb Ideologies]

Many of the people who've voted for Trump are disillusioned former left-voters of some stripe or another who feel that the Democrat elite are more concerned with "lifestyle issues" and signalling how open-minded and tolerant they are than about improving the life chances of the ordinary working man or woman.

Trump has only patchily delivered on the appeals he made to those groups. If the Democrats want to win in a way that doesn't promote more ultimately destructive social strife then they should he trying to win back these groups through economic policies that benefit the disadvantaged of all colours and lifestyles rather than buying into this game of setting groups against each other and banking on demographic change making "their group" bigger.

That strategy might win electorally but that's not a smart move for the health of the polity.

[Post War America]

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/i-m-republican-voting-joe-biden-over-trump-because-i-ncna1243952?fbclid=IwAR0A_QF_psoXnMqAY7LobvzTHVCdpw-2s-q1yT9dWbO0_DGFhLoW7hNG3t0

Former RNC chair Michael Steele is endorsing Biden.

I've read somewhere on Reddit that the longest Wikipedia page is the list of endorsements for Joe Biden.

To be fair though, being a better Presidential candidate than Donald Trump is an extremely low bar to clear.

[Chan Island]

I'd argue that fascism sounds enticing to people who feel rejected and desperate. To act like "they are terrible bad people and fascist" is ridiculous. They've been conned and swindled by a plutocrat and his cadre.

What happens oftentimes is emotionally charged partisanship gets in the way of nuance, it’s easier to justify voting against someone if you paint their support base as being entirely racist and fascist

That and the fact that their actions, no matter how sad the circumstances that made them go to it, are hurting people. Thousands of folks got locked up in inhumane cages, dozens of women had random hysterectomies, dozens of innocents were shot by cops, hundreds of Californians who've lost everything in the fires got their lives treated like a political football... I think it's a bit faux-superiority to just say that it's simply emotionally-charged when there are real consequences at play.

[Estanglia]

I'm tired of this nice guy talk from the center of the Democratic Party. Trump has done WAAAAY too much for us to forgive him or his fans with ease.

Honestly, feel free to hate me for it, but I'm not ready to write off his fans as terrible people yet. They're ordinary folk like us, desperate for answers, looking for an easy way out of their misery, wanting more than being poor and sick, upset that the world is turning it's back. In other words, the perfect victim of a con.

Honestly, I don't see Trump fans in general as evil people. Some certainly are, but I wouldn't be surprised if most of them are people pissed off at the status quo who saw Trump as a status quo smasher, especially since he was up against someone who was part of that status quo.

He smashed the status quo all right, but by lurching it further to the right whilst being led by a narcissist conman who, if his handling of the Coronavirus pandemic says anything, doesn't give a damn about the common people.

[Kannap]

If I were president I simply wouldn't appoint the enemy to powerful offices

He was a very good transportation Secretary. I don’t consider all Republicans to be the enemy.

Oh I'm well aware of that.

[Ifreann]

No it isn't.

Elaborate?

Democrats, Republicans, and modern American fascists are all capitalists. Communists are obviously not. So your comparison is simply not accurate. Republicans, who are capitalists, can be fascists. Democrats, who are capitalists, cannot be communists. If they were communists then they wouldn't be capitalists and thus wouldn't be Democrats.

Both are big tent parties, who have everything from moderates to extremists.

And communism is not an extremist form of the Democratic progressive liberal capitalist ideology in the same way that American fascism is an extremist form of the Republican conservative nationalist capitalist ideology.

However, saying the republican party is "full of fascists" implies you don’t know what fascism actually is. Fascist is more than just an insult to describe everyone you don’t like, and the problem if if the word keeps getting thrown around, the actual meaning would be diluted and lose any negative connotations, ironically leading to the normalization of fascism.

The people who are making the term "fascist" useless are people who make this argument. If the only people we call fascists are the ones openly heiling Hitler or calling for an immediate race war or whatever, then the other fascists need only behave a little better in public, keep the heiling private, and they'll be able to build support for fascism by a different name. Remember when Richard Spencer was getting fawning write ups in the media? Fucker puts on a suit and gels his hair and people fail to realise that the ethno-state he wants would necessarily require genocide. Everyone who was calling Spencer a fascist were right, and everyone making this "Ugh, don't you leftos know that you can't just call everyone a fascist" were only helping Spencer get away with being a fascist.

[West Leas Oros 2]

Many of the people who've voted for Trump are disillusioned former left-voters of some stripe or another who feel that the Democrat elite are more concerned with "lifestyle issues" and signalling how open-minded and tolerant they are than about improving the life chances of the ordinary working man or woman.

Trump has only patchily delivered on the appeals he made to those groups. If the Democrats want to win in a way that doesn't promote more ultimately destructive social strife then they should he trying to win back these groups through economic policies that benefit the disadvantaged of all colours and lifestyles rather than buying into this game of setting groups against each other and banking on demographic change making "their group" bigger.

That strategy might win electorally but that's not a smart move for the health of the polity.

Precisely this. Trump's base are sick of the Democratic Party's neglect of the common people, and so they flock to a swindler promising solutions he has no intention of actually implementing. Third-way neoliberalism has ruined the Democratic Party, but because they care about their wealthy backers than the people, they refuse to change.

[West Leas Oros 2]

Honestly, feel free to hate me for it, but I'm not ready to write off his fans as terrible people yet. They're ordinary folk like us, desperate for answers, looking for an easy way out of their misery, wanting more than being poor and sick, upset that the world is turning it's back. In other words, the perfect victim of a con.

Honestly, I don't see Trump fans in general as evil people. Some certainly are, but I wouldn't be surprised if most of them are people pissed off at the status quo who saw Trump as a status quo smasher, especially since he was up against someone who was part of that status quo.

He smashed the status quo all right, but by lurching it further to the right whilst being led by a narcissist conman who, if his handling of the Coronavirus pandemic says anything, doesn't give a damn about the common people.

Agreed. The problem is that rather than accept that people don't want the status quo and promise meaningful change, the Democrats have poised themselves as the protectors of the status quo.

[No State Here]

Honestly, feel free to hate me for it, but I'm not ready to write off his fans as terrible people yet. They're ordinary folk like us, desperate for answers, looking for an easy way out of their misery, wanting more than being poor and sick, upset that the world is turning it's back. In other words, the perfect victim of a con.

Honestly, I don't see Trump fans in general as evil people. Some certainly are, but I wouldn't be surprised if most of them are people pissed off at the status quo who saw Trump as a status quo smasher, especially since he was up against someone who was part of that status quo.

He smashed the status quo all right, but by lurching it further to the right whilst being led by a narcissist conman who, if his handling of the Coronavirus pandemic says anything, doesn't give a damn about the common people.

Most of the American working class electorate is socially very conservative and economically left, if the Democrats dropped the whole culture war thing, along with gun control, they would succeed with that demographic. Other demographics seem to be getting increasingly libertarian, small business owners, middle class, etc.

[West Leas Oros 2]

Honestly, I don't see Trump fans in general as evil people. Some certainly are, but I wouldn't be surprised if most of them are people pissed off at the status quo who saw Trump as a status quo smasher, especially since he was up against someone who was part of that status quo.

He smashed the status quo all right, but by lurching it further to the right whilst being led by a narcissist conman who, if his handling of the Coronavirus pandemic says anything, doesn't give a damn about the common people.

Most of the American working class electorate is socially very conservative and economically left, if the Democrats dropped the whole culture war thing, along with gun control, they would succeed with that demographic. Other demographics seem to be getting increasingly libertarian, small business owners, middle class, etc.

Goes to show, I guess. The fact is though, either you support the Democrats and deal with all the culture war shit, or you support the Republicans and you have to deal with them fucking you over monetarily. But alas, the Republican Party has become good enough at lying that a lot of people actually think they are economically better off, when the opposite is true.

[Cannot think of a name]

Honestly, I don't see Trump fans in general as evil people. Some certainly are, but I wouldn't be surprised if most of them are people pissed off at the status quo who saw Trump as a status quo smasher, especially since he was up against someone who was part of that status quo.

He smashed the status quo all right, but by lurching it further to the right whilst being led by a narcissist conman who, if his handling of the Coronavirus pandemic says anything, doesn't give a damn about the common people.

Most of the American working class electorate is socially very conservative and economically left, if the Democrats dropped the whole culture war thing, along with gun control, they would succeed with that demographic. Other demographics seem to be getting increasingly libertarian, small business owners, middle class, etc.

This is kind of a weaselly way to say “If the Democrats would just stop giving a shit about minorities and marginalized people we’d get a slight adjustment of the tax code!”

It also ignores that a huge part of the Democratic base are minority voters and marginalized groups if for no other reason than they’re the major party that isn’t actively shitting all over them.

The secret to Democratic Party success is not to become a photo negative of a libertarian, that notion starts to fall apart as soon as you examine it.

[Estanglia]

Honestly, I don't see Trump fans in general as evil people. Some certainly are, but I wouldn't be surprised if most of them are people pissed off at the status quo who saw Trump as a status quo smasher, especially since he was up against someone who was part of that status quo.

He smashed the status quo all right, but by lurching it further to the right whilst being led by a narcissist conman who, if his handling of the Coronavirus pandemic says anything, doesn't give a damn about the common people.

Agreed. The problem is that rather than accept that people don't want the status quo and promise meaningful change, the Democrats have poised themselves as the protectors of the status quo.

I can understand that as a short-term strategy, since if you really want Trump gone you want to appeal to as many people as possible, and sticking with the old status quo keeps people who supported you on your side whilst winning over people who want to go back to pre-Trump times.

But in the long term, that's not gonna be a successful strategy. Disillusionment with the status quo is what brought Trump into power. Trump, someone who lies as often as he breathes, had no past political experience, and has failed most of his promises, managed to win against the status quo. If a candidate that is a Trump who doesn't lie as blatantly, has greater political experience, and delivers their promises comes along, "we must preserve the status quo!" isn't going to cut it.

And since I'm a lefty, I'd rather have a left-wing status quo smasher coming from the Democrats rather than a right-wing status quo smasher coming from the Republicans.

[West Leas Oros 2]

Most of the American working class electorate is socially very conservative and economically left, if the Democrats dropped the whole culture war thing, along with gun control, they would succeed with that demographic. Other demographics seem to be getting increasingly libertarian, small business owners, middle class, etc.

This is kind of a weaselly way to say “If the Democrats would just stop giving a shit about minorities and marginalized people we’d get a slight adjustment of the tax code!”

It also ignores that a huge part of the Democratic base are minority voters and marginalized groups if for no other reason than they’re the major party that isn’t actively shitting all over them.

The secret to Democratic Party success is not to become a photo negative of a libertarian, that notion starts to fall apart as soon as you examine it.

The Democratic Party is shitting on them. Maybe not as actively as the Republicans, but at the end of the day, they're still protecting the economic system that shits on all of us, every day. Your strawman is noted, and discarded.

[Shrillland]

Honestly, I don't see Trump fans in general as evil people. Some certainly are, but I wouldn't be surprised if most of them are people pissed off at the status quo who saw Trump as a status quo smasher, especially since he was up against someone who was part of that status quo.

He smashed the status quo all right, but by lurching it further to the right whilst being led by a narcissist conman who, if his handling of the Coronavirus pandemic says anything, doesn't give a damn about the common people.

Most of the American working class electorate is socially very conservative and economically left, if the Democrats dropped the whole culture war thing, along with gun control, they would succeed with that demographic. Other demographics seem to be getting increasingly libertarian, small business owners, middle class, etc.

There's everything to be said for dropping culture war issues until you see what that actually means in real world terms. From there on, the attraction vanishes. What the right calls the culture wars the left calls the new civil rights movement. What the right sees as political correctness run amok the left sees as ensuring people in pursuit of rainbow rights aren't ostracised or victimised by society to the point where they commit suicide or are murdered by their peers. What the right sees as protecting culture the left sees as ensuring women can't have the same bodily or legal rights as men.

There's everything to be said for focusing on bread and butter economic issues that affect real people until you remember that these culture battles are being fought on behalf of real people too, and some of the most vulnerable and persecuted people to boot. Why can't we fight and win both? Why shouldn't we fight and win both?

[Ifreann]

Honestly, I don't see Trump fans in general as evil people. Some certainly are, but I wouldn't be surprised if most of them are people pissed off at the status quo who saw Trump as a status quo smasher, especially since he was up against someone who was part of that status quo.

He smashed the status quo all right, but by lurching it further to the right whilst being led by a narcissist conman who, if his handling of the Coronavirus pandemic says anything, doesn't give a damn about the common people.

Most of the American working class electorate is socially very conservative and economically left, if the Democrats dropped the whole culture war thing, along with gun control, they would succeed with that demographic. Other demographics seem to be getting increasingly libertarian, small business owners, middle class, etc.

"If you just throw vulnerable minorities under the bus then you could get power"
Very useful advice from the right, definitely worth considering.

[West Leas Oros 2]

Most of the American working class electorate is socially very conservative and economically left, if the Democrats dropped the whole culture war thing, along with gun control, they would succeed with that demographic. Other demographics seem to be getting increasingly libertarian, small business owners, middle class, etc.

There's everything to be said for dropping culture war issues until you see what that actually means in real world terms. From there on, the attraction vanishes. What the right calls the culture wars the left calls the new civil rights movement. What the right sees as political correctness run amok the left sees as ensuring people in pursuit of rainbow rights aren't ostracised or victimised by society to the point where they commit suicide or are murdered by their peers. What the right sees as protecting culture the left sees as ensuring women can't have the same bodily or legal rights as men.

There's everything to be said for focusing on bread and butter economic issues that affect real people until you remember that these culture battles are being fought on behalf of real people too, and some of the most vulnerable and persecuted people to boot. Why can't we fight and win both? Why shouldn't we fight and win both?

I'd hardly be so hyperbolic about it. You've been seeing this culture war through a rosy lens, I'll say. These battles are often fought over minutia, and when they aren't, it's more akin to an angry mob of people with vengeance in their hearts trying to bring liberation through destruction.

[West Leas Oros 2]

Most of the American working class electorate is socially very conservative and economically left, if the Democrats dropped the whole culture war thing, along with gun control, they would succeed with that demographic. Other demographics seem to be getting increasingly libertarian, small business owners, middle class, etc.

"If you just throw vulnerable minorities under the bus then you could get power"
Very useful advice from the right, definitely worth considering.

Again, cool it with the strawmen.

[Shrillland]

There's everything to be said for dropping culture war issues until you see what that actually means in real world terms. From there on, the attraction vanishes. What the right calls the culture wars the left calls the new civil rights movement. What the right sees as political correctness run amok the left sees as ensuring people in pursuit of rainbow rights aren't ostracised or victimised by society to the point where they commit suicide or are murdered by their peers. What the right sees as protecting culture the left sees as ensuring women can't have the same bodily or legal rights as men.

There's everything to be said for focusing on bread and butter economic issues that affect real people until you remember that these culture battles are being fought on behalf of real people too, and some of the most vulnerable and persecuted people to boot. Why can't we fight and win both? Why shouldn't we fight and win both?

I'd hardly be so hyperbolic about it. You've been seeing this culture war through a rosy lens, I'll say. These battles are often fought over minutia, and when they aren't, it's more akin to an angry mob of people with vengeance in their hearts trying to bring liberation through destruction.

Fighting for abortion and LGBT+ rights is hardly minute, especially when we now have a court that's prepared to gut them if not necessarily destroy them.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

I'd argue that fascism sounds enticing to people who feel rejected and desperate. To act like "they are terrible bad people and fascist" is ridiculous. They've been conned and swindled by a plutocrat and his cadre.

What happens oftentimes is emotionally charged partisanship gets in the way of nuance, it’s easier to justify voting against someone if you paint their support base as being entirely racist and fascist

... or welfare queens, criminals, and illegal immigrants ...

The Democrats never really stood up for the people that Republicans tried to shame them with. "Of course they support you, you give them money, you go easy on them, you enable them" Republicans say. And Republican voters believe. Well, Democrats, why didn't you just do it? They do vote for you (or would if they could), and you're going to get blamed for being nice to them whether you are or you aren't, so why not just do it?.

Instead Democrats under Clinton said "oh, you're right, those terrible teenage moms living on welfare, you're right they should get a job. And those criminals still doing crime though it's less than last decade! Yes let's have mandatory minimums"

That old saying about two lambs and a sheep deciding what to have for dinner? That's not exactly democracy. It's "bipartisanship". When both parties agree on something THAT is tyranny of the (super)majority. And someone else, who's probably not represented there in Congress, is going to get badly hurt.

---

If I were president I simply wouldn't appoint the enemy to powerful offices

He was a very good transportation Secretary. I don’t consider all Republicans to be the enemy.

Some departments are more sensitive than others.
There's the national security side of course: you couldn't take a risk with State Department or DHS.
There's also the 'salient' Department. If you get into a war, that's Defense. But if it's a trade war, it might be Agriculture.

Just now it's Health And Human Services. Massive amounts of spending, some of it new and temporary (meaning the bureaucracy is a bit fuzzy, it should never be fuzzy) and next year some of that will still be happening PLUS your Health Secretary will be involved in the negotiations for a new health care system. Remember the size of the printed form of the ACA? Like that.

Your Health &HS Secretary would ideally be someone who's done the job before. Kathleen Sebelius perhaps (2009-2014). Or someone from near the top of the Department (promoted there not appointed). Definitely. Not. A. Republican.

[West Leas Oros 2]

I'd hardly be so hyperbolic about it. You've been seeing this culture war through a rosy lens, I'll say. These battles are often fought over minutia, and when they aren't, it's more akin to an angry mob of people with vengeance in their hearts trying to bring liberation through destruction.

Fighting for abortion and LGBT+ rights is hardly minute, especially when we now have a court that's prepared to gut them if not necessarily destroy them.

We leftists are the ones fighting for them, not the Democrats and their cronies. Take abortion, for instance. None can deny that abortion is largely economic, and in many cases, it's all because raising a child is too expensive. While that may not be a big thing, the fact is, the liberals are either fighting for minutia, or revenge. Either way, we on the left need to focus on what matters. Real, true liberation.

[Valrifell]

Many of the people who've voted for Trump are disillusioned former left-voters .

I'm going to stop you right here because no, that's not what happened.

"The people were tired of the DNC culture war issues so they flocked en masse to the guy perpetuating a culture war and spoke ad nauseum about culture war issues, to the point where one of his slogans was build the wall"

???

I know you have a narrative to feed DI but this ain't it.

[Shrillland]

Fighting for abortion and LGBT+ rights is hardly minute, especially when we now have a court that's prepared to gut them if not necessarily destroy them.

We leftists are the ones fighting for them, not the Democrats and their cronies. Take abortion, for instance. None can deny that abortion is largely economic, and in many cases, it's all because raising a child is too expensive. While that may not be a big thing, the fact is, the liberals are either fighting for minutia, or revenge. Either way, we on the left need to focus on what matters. Real, true liberation.

Which, alas, the two-party system simply doesn't allow us to do.

[West Leas Oros 2]

We leftists are the ones fighting for them, not the Democrats and their cronies. Take abortion, for instance. None can deny that abortion is largely economic, and in many cases, it's all because raising a child is too expensive. While that may not be a big thing, the fact is, the liberals are either fighting for minutia, or revenge. Either way, we on the left need to focus on what matters. Real, true liberation.

Which, alas, the two-party system simply doesn't allow us to do.

Indeed. We are fighting a battle, and losing hard. I've honestly given up hope.

[Ifreann]

"If you just throw vulnerable minorities under the bus then you could get power"
Very useful advice from the right, definitely worth considering.

Again, cool it with the strawmen.

Cutting through the bullshit isn't "strawmen". We all know full well that when the right talks about dropping "the whole culture war thing", they mean that the Democrats should stop advocating for the rights of trans people, of gay people, of Black people, of women.