2020 French Terrorist Beheadings and Attacks Thread

[Albrenia]

Disproportionate retribution is wrong no matter how much you try to justify it.

no one is trying to fucking "justify" decapitating people in the streets lmao they're just suggesting that the massively disproportionate retaliation that we all agree is evil... doesn't make the first thing good, right, considerate, or beneficial to the social order lol

Maybe so, but when the topic is someone being murdered and beheaded, I don't give a rat's fart about how rude the murdered person was. Particularly when the 'rudeness' was just showing a depiction of someone.

[Nouterre]

Religion truly is a cancer to humanity...

[Nobel Hobos 2]

On the aside of the death penalty, in my opinion it is barbaric, ineffective as a deterrent and any decent society neither needs nor wants it.

I would add that it sets a bad example to the people.

[Senkaku]

It was wrong to intentionally disrespect religious figures full stop. At this point it's no longer a matter of "free speech" but "how many Muslims can we piss off and then claim victimhood when they retaliate".

Victim blaming at its finest. It's one thing to be against fuelling religious disharmony, it's another thing to claim that a victim of murder essentially "deserved it" because they disrespected another person's religion. What the teacher did wasn't wise, but it doesn't warrant a beheading.

Everyone in France, as with any society, needs to learn to get along with each other. Respect is a two-way street and compromises need to be made on both sides—within reason. That being said, the level of disrespect of a beheading is so far from the level of disrespect of religious offence that the two cannot be compared at the same level of reasonableness.

I agree that laws need to prevent religious disharmony from spreading in the first place, but let's call an act of extremism for what it is.

You decapitate someone because they offended your religious beliefs? You are 100% evil. Should the teacher have shown a visual depiction of their prophet? No, but what happened to him as a result was pure utter evil. Every person, from every background, must condemn such barbarism.

where in the post did they say "I think the teacher had it coming and that chopping people's heads off is not that bad"?

the suggestion that anyone saying that "hey, maybe these cartoons are disrespectful and bigoted and the continued insistence of publishing them seems weird" must believe that the people getting murdered over them had it coming is just a ridiculous way to try to shut down debates without actually engaging with the substance of the problem

[Nobel Hobos 2]

Religion truly is a cancer to humanity...

Bad first post.

[Senkaku]

no one is trying to fucking "justify" decapitating people in the streets lmao they're just suggesting that the massively disproportionate retaliation that we all agree is evil... doesn't make the first thing good, right, considerate, or beneficial to the social order lol

Maybe so, but when the topic is someone being murdered and beheaded, I don't give a rat's fart about how rude the murdered person was. Particularly when the 'rudeness' was just showing a depiction of someone.

Really? This is like the fourth time or something someone's gotten killed about this issue that's also provoked massive public debate even when people aren't getting killed, and your response is that you "don't give a rat's fart" about... perhaps trying to prevent this shit from continuing?

This whole "well, we can't talk about anything else besides agreeing that murder bad, because ~sOmEonE dIeD~" shit is so tiresome. like yes, okay, and how do we stop more people from dying..? perhaps we must engage more deeply with the issues surrounding this murder and those connected to it, hmm?

[Senkaku]

Religion truly is a cancer to humanity...

Bad first post.

It's interesting to see France's revival of the Hebertists, but only when it's directed against Islam

[SD_Film Artists]

Glad to hear that solidarity marches for the teacher are planned in France. If this was Britain it'll all get swept under the rug.

[The Alma Mater]

Maybe so, but when the topic is someone being murdered and beheaded, I don't give a rat's fart about how rude the murdered person was. Particularly when the 'rudeness' was just showing a depiction of someone.

Really? This is like the fourth time or something someone's gotten killed about this issue that's also provoked massive public debate even when people aren't getting killed, and your response is that you "don't give a rat's fart" about... perhaps trying to prevent this shit from continuing?

This whole "well, we can't talk about anything else besides agreeing that murder bad, because ~sOmEonE dIeD~" shit is so tiresome. like yes, okay, and how do we stop more people from dying..? perhaps we must engage more deeply with the issues surrounding this murder and those connected to it, hmm?

Then again, the opposite angle of only wishing to discuss how rude it was is much worse.

And ironically the man who was murdered here wanted to discuss this all from both sides. But the killer said no.

[The Restored Danelaw]

Maybe so, but when the topic is someone being murdered and beheaded, I don't give a rat's fart about how rude the murdered person was. Particularly when the 'rudeness' was just showing a depiction of someone.

Really? This is like the fourth time or something someone's gotten killed about this issue that's also provoked massive public debate even when people aren't getting killed, and your response is that you "don't give a rat's fart" about... perhaps trying to prevent this shit from continuing?

This whole "well, we can't talk about anything else besides agreeing that murder bad, because ~sOmEonE dIeD~" shit is so tiresome. like yes, okay, and how do we stop more people from dying..? perhaps we must engage more deeply with the issues surrounding this murder and those connected to it, hmm?

The solution is obviously stopping the Muslim extremists from killing at will when they get offended, not disrupting people's right to free expression.

[Albrenia]

Maybe so, but when the topic is someone being murdered and beheaded, I don't give a rat's fart about how rude the murdered person was. Particularly when the 'rudeness' was just showing a depiction of someone.

Really? This is like the fourth time or something someone's gotten killed about this issue that's also provoked massive public debate even when people aren't getting killed, and your response is that you "don't give a rat's fart" about... perhaps trying to prevent this shit from continuing?

This whole "well, we can't talk about anything else besides agreeing that murder bad, because ~sOmEonE dIeD~" shit is so tiresome. like yes, okay, and how do we stop more people from dying..? perhaps we must engage more deeply with the issues surrounding this murder and those connected to it, hmm?

I don't know how to solve the problem, but I'm pretty sure caving in to the extremists and making pictures of the Prophet illegal will do nothing but let them find something else to get upset enough to murder over.

I'd suggest community programs to bring 'locals' and Muslims closer together might help, as would supporting moderate voices within both the French and Muslim communities. As I said though, I've no idea how to tackle such a wide-scale problem.

[Albionist Great Britain]

Both the terrorist that did this and the parents who see more problem with displays of their paedophiliac warlord ‘prophet’ are clearly wrong in the head. My condolences to the victim’s friends and family, and my hopes that France builds upon the monumental bill targeting Muslim parallel society.

[Purpelia]

Really? This is like the fourth time or something someone's gotten killed about this issue that's also provoked massive public debate even when people aren't getting killed, and your response is that you "don't give a rat's fart" about... perhaps trying to prevent this shit from continuing?

This whole "well, we can't talk about anything else besides agreeing that murder bad, because ~sOmEonE dIeD~" shit is so tiresome. like yes, okay, and how do we stop more people from dying..? perhaps we must engage more deeply with the issues surrounding this murder and those connected to it, hmm?

I don't know how to solve the problem, but I'm pretty sure caving in to the extremists and making pictures of the Prophet illegal will do nothing but let them find something else to get upset enough to murder over.

I'd suggest community programs to bring 'locals' and Muslims closer together might help, as would supporting moderate voices within both the French and Muslim communities. As I said though, I've no idea how to tackle such a wide-scale problem.

At this point I feel that the only solution is to crack down and do it hard.
1. Institute a strict control over all religious institutions of any religion to ensure they are not preaching extremism or anything else that goes against social requirements.
2. Permanently ban any preacher that breaks this rule from preaching.
3. Make holding radical (as in supports violence toward those that disagree) religious beliefs illegal and subject to jail time, having your children snatched away and compulsory deprogramming.

[Dolgo]

The death penalty is not about the perpetrator, nor is it merely about its potential deterring effect. It's about asserting the monopoly of violence that the state (should) hold.

Such nonsense. The state can imprison you for life, at its own expense. That is a greater demonstration of force than killing you, which any punk with a knife could do. And not trivially, it demonstrates restraint in the use of force.

In the event a citizen of the state is unlawfully killed, the state must re-assert its power by taking the life of the murderer. This also gives the public a greater sense of justice and sends the message that certain crimes will carry the ultimate punishment.

Your definition of "greater justice" is suspect, and actually rejected by most countries. Particularly most democratic countries! If the people wanted murderers killed by the state, wouldn't democratic countries generally do it? Actually the US is out on a limb here, which I can only explain by philosophical individualism combining with a cultural inclination to make problems go away quickly and simply.

Well there's doing everything as cheaply as possible, and if this was the 1980's I would consider that a sufficient explanation for the US wanting to retain the sociopathic method "use of lethal force against individuals". But it's a quarter century later and you're still for it, despite it being more expensive to the state than life imprisonment.

Australia abolished the death penalty in 1973, and the last execution was in 1967. That moment when a former penal colony which asked for independence without fighting a war, and still has the Queen of England as sovereign ... doesn't need execution to assert its power over the citizens. *smug*

As for religious extremists, there's no easy way around that. Certainly they would feel like a hero regardless of what was done against them. In the end, their existence cannot be tolerated by society once they commit murder. After being found guilty in a court of law, the just decision of the state is to sentence them to capital punishment.

There is an easy way around that. It's to give their children extra support in school, and adapt the school environment for them so they feel welcome, and just for any other kids present to them a model of society which is BETTER and more stimulating and more gratifying to them, than home life. Some kids don't need this, but in my opinion around half of kids in developed nations need and deserve something better than the life their own parents model for them. All of schooling should be re-oriented towards this, and away from formal education: school is a hard-won opportunity for government to model the society which children will have to live in when they leave their parents home. A necessary compromise is to give up standardization: all schools can't be the same, some must be allowed lower formal learning standards, to present a more varied choice to students (or their advocates) and there must also be some third party, a schooling advocate, who gives support to each student in choosing which school or class is best for them. Schools have their own agendas, they would cherry-pick students if they could. Parents and the religious mentors who influence them, also have an agenda, and in far too many cases have a vision of how they want their child to grow up. There needs to be a third party, an advocate for each child, and when we as a society have mastered AI, each child WILL have their own advocate to strengthen their will and knowledge, give trusted advice on life decisions, and grow up alongside each child. Perhaps there will be problems later in life, as people rebel against their childhood AI mentor, but that is a small price to pay for all the trouble we have now with "rites of passage" into adulthood. The future is bright, for individualism AND for social cohesion, and I'm sorry if my rant makes the present seem so dim.

Every problem in human society is caused by bad parenting. And though I'm sure I'd have been a good parent (at least to one child) I am glad I never took that moral risk. Parents, go easy on the religious teaching please! However sure you are of your religion, let your child find their own purpose in life. Extreme religion will force them to fight battles that probably you didn't ever have to, it's no more ethical than press-ganging child soldiers.

Asia, as a whole continent, has the lowest murder rate in the entire world at 2.9. The Americas has a murder rate of 16.3. (source from the UN) I guess the Asians are doing better parenting. If your logic was correct, parents in the Americas should buy canes in the dozens and apply it liberally to discipline their children. Certainly caning has a place, not sure if that place is on a child's bottom, but there is no accident for the low crime rates of many Asian countries... And I significantly doubt it is because they are "compassionate societies" with compassionate parenting styles. Rather the opposite.

Fortunately for the Americas, once we master AI, as you say, every child will have their own equivalent of Commander Data, who will teach the people of the world to respect each other, and happy-ever-after. Why bother with pragmatism, when we can hold out for idealistic utopias.

Again, you are welcome to believe in such fantasies, but it doesn't apply to reality. Parenting does play a big role, but it isn't the contributor of every problem, or solution. Individualism has been a massive failure for the planet and society, but again, you believe we can have our cake and eat it too. You cannot get a cohesive society if your culture promotes the very opposite. Integration is not done voluntarily. It requires a strong state to force the people, kicking or screaming, to live in harmony.

It's why as soon as Tito in Yugoslavia died, the whole place went to hell, as without their benevolent dictator, tribalistic groups decided separation was best. And without the Ethnic Integration Policy implemented by Lee Kuan Yew's government in Singapore, there'd be ethnic ghettos there today, just as there is in America, Europe, and countless other regions.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

If it's to the point where drawings of a holy figure is more outrageous to you than decapitation, then...perhaps it's worth taking a step back from things.

It's a common theme among quite a few: concerned deeply with moral outrages, while seeming indifferent to...I don't know...actual outrages.

On the aside of the death penalty, in my opinion it is barbaric, ineffective as a deterrent and any decent society neither needs nor wants it.

True. While I can see why people would see it fit, it's still too barbaric for my liking. I'm also not gonna trust the state with that sort of thing: it has enough of a monopoly on violence as it is.

Sad. You blew right past my rant about bad parenting being the main cause of crime, and the role of religion in that, to concentrate on the sensational but insignificant thread subject.

[Dolgo]

Victim blaming at its finest. It's one thing to be against fuelling religious disharmony, it's another thing to claim that a victim of murder essentially "deserved it" because they disrespected another person's religion. What the teacher did wasn't wise, but it doesn't warrant a beheading.

Everyone in France, as with any society, needs to learn to get along with each other. Respect is a two-way street and compromises need to be made on both sides—within reason. That being said, the level of disrespect of a beheading is so far from the level of disrespect of religious offence that the two cannot be compared at the same level of reasonableness.

I agree that laws need to prevent religious disharmony from spreading in the first place, but let's call an act of extremism for what it is.

You decapitate someone because they offended your religious beliefs? You are 100% evil. Should the teacher have shown a visual depiction of their prophet? No, but what happened to him as a result was pure utter evil. Every person, from every background, must condemn such barbarism.

where in the post did they say "I think the teacher had it coming and that chopping people's heads off is not that bad"?

the suggestion that anyone saying that "hey, maybe these cartoons are disrespectful and bigoted and the continued insistence of publishing them seems weird" must believe that the people getting murdered over them had it coming is just a ridiculous way to try to shut down debates without actually engaging with the substance of the problem

"how many Muslims can we piss off and then claim victimhood when they retaliate"

"then claim victimhood"

"claim victimhood"

Hmm, I wonder where my "suggestion" of victim blaming came from.

[Purpelia]

"how many Muslims can we piss off and then claim victimhood when they retaliate"

"then claim victimhood"

"claim victimhood"

Hmm, I wonder where my "suggestion" of victim blaming came from.

If you are offended by a comic book don't read it. If you are offended by a movie don't watch it. If you are offended by a song don't listen to it.
If you are offended by a society that allows others to enjoy things you are offended by on principal LEAVE.

[Dolgo]

"how many Muslims can we piss off and then claim victimhood when they retaliate"

"then claim victimhood"

"claim victimhood"

Hmm, I wonder where my "suggestion" of victim blaming came from.

If you are offended by a comic book don't read it. If you are offended by a movie don't watch it. If you are offended by a song don't listen to it.
If you are offended by a society that allows others to enjoy things you are offended by on principal LEAVE.

The text in quotes is not from me. Chill out.

[Resilient Acceleration]

On the other hand, "disrespecting" religious figures is extremely subjective. Countless people has been tried, imprisoned, and even executed over "blasphemy". You can say all you want about all religious figures and it would still be legal and morally acceptable (providing you don't intentionally "hate" them). If someone harmed you for that, you are the clear victim from both moral and legal grounds.

If you get beheaded, sure. But don't be surprised when it happens. Which is my point. If you go about intentionally provoking people, don't act surprised when they retaliate.

In 1995, when Aum Shirinkyo gassed the people they don't like with deadly VX and sarin nerve gas, Japan didn't pass laws banning its people from criticizing the cult. Instead, they (correctly) recognized that the extremist beliefs is the overwhelming problem, raided the cult's headquarters, arrest the leaders, put dangerous members under supervision, and generally the pressure forced the cult to radically reform into a far less violent version.

[Picairn]

no one is trying to fucking "justify" decapitating people in the streets lmao they're just suggesting that the massively disproportionate retaliation that we all agree is evil... doesn't make the first thing good, right, considerate, or beneficial to the social order lol

Since when did the teacher go around and intentionally provoke Muslim students? All I see is an innocuous request gets trampled on with a brutal execution.

[Senkaku]

Both the terrorist that did this and the parents who see more problem with displays of their paedophiliac warlord ‘prophet’ are clearly wrong in the head. My condolences to the victim’s friends and family, and my hopes that France builds upon the monumental bill targeting Muslim parallel society.

This is illustrative of why I don’t find most of the discussions over the years around these murders useful— unfortunately it seems like the people most upset about them and who want to talk about them the most see them more as an arena to field insane ideas of massive, brutal, bigoted, and totally counterproductive crackdowns against the entire Muslim population of France (who do not, contrary to what seems to be getting taken as default fact by many people in this thread, universally loathe France, French people, secularism, or Christianity)

[-Ocelot-]

People who use religion as an excuse to commit atrocities generally try to be as dramatic about it as possible. The Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, 9/11, and for what?

The...9/11?

[Senkaku]

no one is trying to fucking "justify" decapitating people in the streets lmao they're just suggesting that the massively disproportionate retaliation that we all agree is evil... doesn't make the first thing good, right, considerate, or beneficial to the social order lol

Since when did the teacher go around and intentionally provoke Muslim students? All I see is an innocuous request gets trampled on with a brutal execution.

I was referring to the production of the cartoons and the previous murders— it sounds like this is a very sad case of a teacher trying to have hard conversations about present issues in a mature way with a class getting killed by a crazy student

The assumption that a teacher getting killed by a crazy student who’s been radicalized by an ideology is, in this one case, proof of some vast Islamic plot against the Republic seems like a problem to me is all

[Resilient Acceleration]

Both the terrorist that did this and the parents who see more problem with displays of their paedophiliac warlord ‘prophet’ are clearly wrong in the head. My condolences to the victim’s friends and family, and my hopes that France builds upon the monumental bill targeting Muslim parallel society.

This is illustrative of why I don’t find most of the discussions over the years around these murders useful— unfortunately it seems like the people most upset about them and who want to talk about them the most see them more as an arena to field insane ideas of massive, brutal, bigoted, and totally counterproductive crackdowns against the entire Muslim population of France (who do not, contrary to what seems to be getting taken as default fact by many people in this thread, universally loathe France, French people, secularism, or Christianity)

Hell, in Indonesia here the polarization has basically kinda divide the Muslim moderates and the radical Islamists into two separate religion, with the radicals subject to organization bans, state-sanctioned covert operations, etc.

[Albrenia]

Both the terrorist that did this and the parents who see more problem with displays of their paedophiliac warlord ‘prophet’ are clearly wrong in the head. My condolences to the victim’s friends and family, and my hopes that France builds upon the monumental bill targeting Muslim parallel society.

This is illustrative of why I don’t find most of the discussions over the years around these murders useful— unfortunately it seems like the people most upset about them and who want to talk about them the most see them more as an arena to field insane ideas of massive, brutal, bigoted, and totally counterproductive crackdowns against the entire Muslim population of France (who do not, contrary to what seems to be getting taken as default fact by many people in this thread, universally loathe France, French people, secularism, or Christianity)

I actually agree. Nothing is served by attacking Muslims as a whole, since that only serves to punish the innocent along with the guilty, and give the extremists new recruits from disillusioned people.

It is extremism and hate which must be choked out, not Islam, not free speech, and not religious liberty.