NationStates

Sundiata wrote:I've updated the poll everyone.

You have the "It should be legal to buy sex but illegal to sell sex, let me explain why." option listed twice.

I think being a pimp should be punishable by death and trafficked prostitutes shouldn't be arrested or imprisoned for any reason, but instead brought to a shelter to be helped.

Senkaku wrote:

Washington Resistance Army wrote:I'm personally against legalizing it because of the whole slew of issues that impact sex workers (worse mental health, generally lower quality of life etc etc) and the difficulties it raises in integrating those people into wider society. I have no academic sources on the latter but just from talking with current and former sex workers they pretty unanimously said it's difficult to hold friendships, relationships, form new careers etc etc.

Ideally we'd try and reach a point where people don't need to sell themselves to survive because that's capitalism distilled down to its most basic and disgusting form.

Lots of jobs impact people’s mental health and quality of life, and most jobs today are literally selling your body to survive. What do you think a Walgreens cashier or an Amazon warehouse worker or a hospital temperature checker is doing, if not selling use of their body for a period of time?

If sex work were legal and sex workers could safely conduct their business, live openly, and be assured of health and safety like most other wage laborers, perhaps the problems they face would be a bit less acute.

There's a pretty big difference between being a cashier and being a prostitute lol, c'mon now. The latter is inherently magnitudes of order more exploitive.

I don't think they ever could live openly is the problem. Even amongst the younger generation in the States, look at all the vitriol and hatred sex workers get online. Our culture is simply not one that will accept these people at this point in time, fully legalizing it would just make them bigger targets. There's also the problem of the already existing legal sex work industries like porn being shady as fuck and regularly manipulating people and ruining lives for a profit. Maybe it's just cuz of my continual drive leftwards economically but I'm not fond of giving that industry even more people to trample over.

Punished UMN wrote:

Kowani wrote:Wonder if the Christian position on sex and the influence of that onto greater societal moral standards have anything to do with that...

It's not just the Christian position on sex that sex should be exclusive to their partners.

The fact of the matter is that having to sell one's body to live is capitalist exploitation boiled down to its most basic.

The reasonable answer here seems to be to deal with the short term problems created by living under capitalist exploitation (i.e. legalize sex work), while working to end capitalism, rather than making people as miserable as possible now, while doing very little about the future.

Punished UMN wrote:

Senkaku wrote:Lots of jobs impact people’s mental health and quality of life, and most jobs today are literally selling your body to survive. What do you think a Walgreens cashier or an Amazon warehouse worker or a hospital temperature checker is doing, if not selling use of their body for a period of time?

If sex work were legal and sex workers could safely conduct their business, live openly, and be assured of health and safety like most other wage laborers, perhaps the problems they face would be a bit less acute.

If sex work is legalized, will sex workers have to follow the same regulations as all other businesses?

What do you mean? Like, no defrauding your clients, pay your workers, no murder? Or are we talking about the maximum legal amount of silicone lube residue that can be discharged into the plumbing of a six-story building that meets seismic requirements but falls short of updated 2023 version 2 thermal efficiency requirements for windows?

If it’s the former, my answer is just yeah. They’d operate like normal businesses. If it’s the latter, I’m in bed on my phone, and I’m not going to write you a full regulatory statute establishing the Bureau of Sex Work Regulation.

Senkaku wrote:

Punished UMN wrote:It's not just the Christian position on sex that sex should be exclusive to their partners.

The fact of the matter is that having to sell one's body to live is capitalist exploitation boiled down to its most basic.

The reasonable answer here seems to be to deal with the short term problems created by living under capitalist exploitation (i.e. legalize sex work), while working to end capitalism, rather than making people as miserable as possible now, while doing very little about the future.

Punished UMN wrote:If sex work is legalized, will sex workers have to follow the same regulations as all other businesses?

What do you mean? Like, no defrauding your clients, pay your workers, no murder? Or are we talking about the maximum legal amount of silicone lube residue that can be discharged into the plumbing of a six-story building that meets seismic requirements but falls short of updated 2023 version 2 thermal efficiency requirements for windows?

If it’s the former, my answer is just yeah. They’d operate like normal businesses. If it’s the latter, I’m in bed on my phone, and I’m not going to write you a full regulatory statute establishing the Bureau of Sex Work Regulation.

Well, what came to mind was anti-discrimination regulations on businesses.

Washington Resistance Army wrote:

Senkaku wrote:Lots of jobs impact people’s mental health and quality of life, and most jobs today are literally selling your body to survive. What do you think a Walgreens cashier or an Amazon warehouse worker or a hospital temperature checker is doing, if not selling use of their body for a period of time?

If sex work were legal and sex workers could safely conduct their business, live openly, and be assured of health and safety like most other wage laborers, perhaps the problems they face would be a bit less acute.

There's a pretty big difference between being a cashier and being a prostitute lol, c'mon now. The latter is inherently magnitudes of order more exploitive.

I don't think they ever could live openly is the problem. Even amongst the younger generation in the States, look at all the vitriol and hatred sex workers get online. Our culture is simply not one that will accept these people at this point in time, fully legalizing it would just make them bigger targets. There's also the problem of the already existing legal sex work industries like porn being shady as fuck and regularly manipulating people and ruining lives for a profit. Maybe it's just cuz of my continual drive leftwards economically but I'm not fond of giving that industry even more people to trample over.

It's an inherently shady industry.

Washington Resistance Army wrote:

Senkaku wrote:Lots of jobs impact people’s mental health and quality of life, and most jobs today are literally selling your body to survive. What do you think a Walgreens cashier or an Amazon warehouse worker or a hospital temperature checker is doing, if not selling use of their body for a period of time?

If sex work were legal and sex workers could safely conduct their business, live openly, and be assured of health and safety like most other wage laborers, perhaps the problems they face would be a bit less acute.

There's a pretty big difference between being a cashier and being a prostitute lol, c'mon now. The latter is inherently magnitudes of order more exploitive.

Why?

I don't think they ever could live openly is the problem. Even amongst the younger generation in the States, look at all the vitriol and hatred sex workers get online. Our culture is simply not one that will accept these people at this point in time, fully legalizing it would just make them bigger targets.

This is a bad reason for not making something legal. “Okay maybe we should but just couldn’t handle it”? Go full Eisenhower and send in the 101st Airborne if it ends up being that much of a problem, but I really don’t think it would be. Pot shops do fine, I think brothels would be alright.

There's also the problem of the already existing legal sex work industries like porn being shady as fuck and regularly manipulating people and ruining lives for a profit. Maybe it's just cuz of my continual drive leftwards economically but I'm not fond of giving that industry even more people to trample over.

Sounds like a sector in need of serious regulatory oversight! Rather than, you know, just throwing our hands up and saying “too hard!”

Senkaku wrote:

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
There's a pretty big difference between being a cashier and being a prostitute lol, c'mon now. The latter is inherently magnitudes of order more exploitive.

Why?

I don't think they ever could live openly is the problem. Even amongst the younger generation in the States, look at all the vitriol and hatred sex workers get online. Our culture is simply not one that will accept these people at this point in time, fully legalizing it would just make them bigger targets.

This is a bad reason for not making something legal. “Okay maybe we should but just couldn’t handle it”? Go full Eisenhower and send in the 101st Airborne if it ends up being that much of a problem, but I really don’t think it would be. Pot shops do fine, I think brothels would be alright.

There's also the problem of the already existing legal sex work industries like porn being shady as fuck and regularly manipulating people and ruining lives for a profit. Maybe it's just cuz of my continual drive leftwards economically but I'm not fond of giving that industry even more people to trample over.

Sounds like a sector in need of serious regulatory oversight! Rather than, you know, just throwing our hands up and saying “too hard!”

All work for a wage or payment is coercive, and that means that sex work is coercive. Then what makes sex work more exploitative is that it is sex that the worker is coerced into.

Punished UMN wrote:

Senkaku wrote:The reasonable answer here seems to be to deal with the short term problems created by living under capitalist exploitation (i.e. legalize sex work), while working to end capitalism, rather than making people as miserable as possible now, while doing very little about the future.


What do you mean? Like, no defrauding your clients, pay your workers, no murder? Or are we talking about the maximum legal amount of silicone lube residue that can be discharged into the plumbing of a six-story building that meets seismic requirements but falls short of updated 2023 version 2 thermal efficiency requirements for windows?

If it’s the former, my answer is just yeah. They’d operate like normal businesses. If it’s the latter, I’m in bed on my phone, and I’m not going to write you a full regulatory statute establishing the Bureau of Sex Work Regulation.

Well, what came to mind was anti-discrimination regulations on businesses.

I mean, “no blacks or Jews” probably wouldn’t fly, but there should obviously be legal clarification that straight prostitutes do not have to fuck gay clients, and vice versa?

The Reformed American Republic wrote:

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
There's a pretty big difference between being a cashier and being a prostitute lol, c'mon now. The latter is inherently magnitudes of order more exploitive.

I don't think they ever could live openly is the problem. Even amongst the younger generation in the States, look at all the vitriol and hatred sex workers get online. Our culture is simply not one that will accept these people at this point in time, fully legalizing it would just make them bigger targets. There's also the problem of the already existing legal sex work industries like porn being shady as fuck and regularly manipulating people and ruining lives for a profit. Maybe it's just cuz of my continual drive leftwards economically but I'm not fond of giving that industry even more people to trample over.

It's an inherently shady industry.

There are no “inherently shady” industries! There is what the state has chosen to criminalize and drive into the shadows, and what it chooses to allow to operate openly or even cooperate with it. Why is sex work “inherently shady,” but military robotics isn’t?

All prostitutes should be self employed. No pimp.

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:All prostitutes should be self employed. No pimp.

Pimps and human traffickers should be hanged upon conviction.

Senkaku wrote:There are no “inherently shady” industries!

What about people who sell those big umbrellas they use at the beach?

All work under capitalism is selling your body.

Senkaku wrote:

Punished UMN wrote:Well, what came to mind was anti-discrimination regulations on businesses.

I mean, “no blacks or Jews” probably wouldn’t fly, but there should obviously be legal clarification that straight prostitutes do not have to fuck gay clients, and vice versa?

That's the problem though, it means that you basically have then a legal basis that sex workers do not get to choose who they have sex with.

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:All prostitutes should be self employed. No pimp.

I mean, if the business is legalized, can a brothel have a receptionist? A wardrobe manager? A security guy? An advertising rep?

Once you’re talking about a legal area of the private sector, the idea of banning people from working together in larger companies gets kinda silly.

I don't know enough about sex work to provide a detailed opinion on it.

Please provide me money for research so I can interview sex workers on what they think about the issue. Afterwards I will report my findings.

Albrenia wrote:

Senkaku wrote:There are no “inherently shady” industries!

What about people who sell those big umbrellas they use at the beach?

I’m pretty sure they sell them still rolled up, and then it’s up to the consumer whether to use them to provide shade

Punished UMN wrote:

Senkaku wrote:I mean, “no blacks or Jews” probably wouldn’t fly, but there should obviously be legal clarification that straight prostitutes do not have to fuck gay clients, and vice versa?

That's the problem though, it means that you basically have then a legal basis that sex workers do not get to choose who they have sex with.

No it doesn’t. I just illustrated the choices available. But if you’re running a brothel like a bakery and relying on walk-ins rather than soliciting your clientele, I don’t think it should be legal to have a sign on the door saying “no racial, religious, or ethnic minorities.” I think it’s fine to advertise that your services are, say, for men seeking women, or women seeking men, or men seeking men, or that only certain acts are offered, but at a certain point if you’re choosing to have sex as your career rather than something you do just on your own time for pleasure, there are tradeoffs, and your pleasure or preferences are often among them.

I’m hardly proposing we march self-employed sex workers at gunpoint to the public square to provide “sexual mutual aid” or whatever. I’m saying once you advertise a service (say, woman providing oral sex for female clientele), that you don’t get to discriminate beyond that.

Legal within the context of worker cooperatives and sex-worker controlled industry. Illegal otherwise.

Sex work should absolutely be legal and regulated to make sure all parties involved are safe. Having it be criminal only serves to make things more dangerous and put money and power in the hands of those who exploit SWs.

Sex Work Should Be Legal Under State Control

Senkaku wrote:

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
There's a pretty big difference between being a cashier and being a prostitute lol, c'mon now. The latter is inherently magnitudes of order more exploitive.

Why?

I'll defer to UMN's answer because I largely agree with it.

Senkaku wrote:This is a bad reason for not making something legal. “Okay maybe we should but just couldn’t handle it”? Go full Eisenhower and send in the 101st Airborne if it ends up being that much of a problem, but I really don’t think it would be. Pot shops do fine, I think brothels would be alright.

The concern isn't these places being attacked or whatever, it's the stigma the employees would face from society as a whole that would still result in a lower quality of life and all those other issues. Whether it's a good thing or not, most people currently do and likely will continue to look down on sex workers. That's not conducive to a healthy situation for anyone. We should try and steer people away from getting into it in the first place instead of legalizing it.

Senkaku wrote:Sounds like a sector in need of serious regulatory oversight! Rather than, you know, just throwing our hands up and saying “too hard!”

I'm not sure it's problems you can really solve with regulation. The industry preys on young women who have no real experience in the world and rapidly draws them in without them fully understanding everything. It's shady as fuck, but there's nothing really illegal with it. That's just capitalism doing what capitalism does.

Senkaku wrote:There are no “inherently shady” industries!

Clearly you've never worked with the ATF

Purpelia wrote:Its a job like any other. I really do not see a difference.

This

If it is going to happen (and it will happen one way or another), the best way for it to happen is:

- sex-workers feel free to report abuse (without fear of being arrested or their "good" clients being arrested)
- sex-workers are not exploited
- no human traficking is involved
- no children are involved
- no discrimination is involved
- health and safety are held up by strict standards.

The best way to do so is to set regulations for how, when, and where sex-works can take place.

And in order to regulate the whole thing, the thing must first be a legitimate object for health and safety regulations, labour regulations, equality laws, minimum age laws, planning, and what else.

And to be a legitimate object for such regulations, it needs to be legal - exactly like alcohol, but less addictive, and less likely to lead to violence and abuse, and less likely to be consumed in public.

There are worse ways to spend a Thursday night

I don't understand the title of this thread.

Why is Sex Work in quotes?