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What did the Ancient Egyptians look like?

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Socrathens
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Postby Socrathens » Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:19 pm

Cleopatra was the daughter of a brother-sister marriage. So her parents were definitely of the same genetic stock.

Her parents were the son and daughter of one of the Ptolemies and his GREEK Mistress, Irene.

So that's inbred Macedonian + Greek beauty (with blonde hair - back when some Greeks still had blonde hair).

How the **** do people consider any of that "a woman of colour"? Tanned, maybe - I don't know whether she liked to sunbathe after or before bathing in she-asses' milk...

Not a fan of whitewashing (annoyed by it, usually). But this is going equally wrong in the other direction. This is painting everything non-western black.

History is NOT a coloring book. Enough already.

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Insaanistan
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Postby Insaanistan » Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:21 pm

Atheris wrote:
Insaanistan wrote:
Considering most Israelis are of mainly or entirely Eastern and Central European descent and like Gabot look visibly European, and Cleopatra would likely have looked at least moderately brown-skinned, and the history of Egyptian history being whitewashed, I’d say the anger is justifiable.

Well, the Ptolemaic dynasty wasn't natively Middle Eastern, either. They were from Greece. You know, Eastern Europe.

Southern, but I already addressed that earlier.
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Insaanistan
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Postby Insaanistan » Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:22 pm

Socrathens wrote:Cleopatra was the daughter of a brother-sister marriage. So her parents were definitely of the same genetic stock.

Her parents were the son and daughter of one of the Ptolemies and his GREEK Mistress, Irene.

So that's inbred Macedonian + Greek beauty (with blonde hair - back when some Greeks still had blonde hair).

How the **** do people consider any of that "a woman of colour"? Tanned, maybe - I don't know whether she liked to sunbathe after or before bathing in she-asses' milk...

Not a fan of whitewashing (annoyed by it, usually). But this is going equally wrong in the other direction. This is painting everything non-western black.

History is NOT a coloring book. Enough already.


Was Cleopatra black? Definitely not, at most she was 1/8 Nubian and that’s a maybe.
Was Cleopatra white? Well, part.
Did Cleopatra really look white? No, not really.
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Nanatsu no Tsuki
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Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:23 pm

Insaanistan wrote:
Socrathens wrote:Cleopatra was the daughter of a brother-sister marriage. So her parents were definitely of the same genetic stock.

Her parents were the son and daughter of one of the Ptolemies and his GREEK Mistress, Irene.

So that's inbred Macedonian + Greek beauty (with blonde hair - back when some Greeks still had blonde hair).

How the **** do people consider any of that "a woman of colour"? Tanned, maybe - I don't know whether she liked to sunbathe after or before bathing in she-asses' milk...

Not a fan of whitewashing (annoyed by it, usually). But this is going equally wrong in the other direction. This is painting everything non-western black.

History is NOT a coloring book. Enough already.


Was Cleopatra black? Definitely not, at most she was 1/8 Nubian and that’s a maybe.
Was Cleopatra white? Well, part.
Did Cleopatra really look white? No, not really.


According to some of her supposed portraits, she was a tad hard to look at too.
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Rusozak
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Postby Rusozak » Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:23 pm

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:
The Marlborough wrote:Since when are Greeks POC?


Australian RePublic would beg to differ.

To be serious though, she was half Egyptian. Of course, a half Egyptian half Greek person probably looks no more "of color" than a full blooded Greek.


Well, over the several centuries the Ptolemy dynasty was in power the Greek and native Egyptians intermingled and the lines became muddied, but it was my understanding the royal line remained predominantly Greek, thanks in part to quite a lot of incest. :?
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Insaanistan
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Postby Insaanistan » Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:24 pm

Kyundao wrote:
Sorra and Olrisa wrote:I'm not very learned on that region of the world. But, don't most Israelis that appear distinctly 'Israeli' when compared with their neighbors have a significant amount of European admixture in their ancestry? And can reasonably pass, be accepted as white people? Sephardic and Ashkenazi in particular. I don't know much about Jews that never left the Middle East to begin with. But I would imagine that they look more like Arabs and North Africans.


Just because a Jewish person is from Eastern Europe doesn't mean that Jewish person is racially European. Genetically the Jewish people as a whole are West Asian; their Y-DNA haplogroups are not European in origin and most of their mtDNA haplogroups aren't European either. On top of this, a lot of West Asians can easily pass off as Southern European.

Many do. I wouldn’t want a pale skinned Arab playing Cleopatra. An Egyptian, Berber or relatively light-skinned Ethiopian should play her.
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The Marlborough
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Postby The Marlborough » Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:27 pm

Kyundao wrote:
Sorra and Olrisa wrote:I'm not very learned on that region of the world. But, don't most Israelis that appear distinctly 'Israeli' when compared with their neighbors have a significant amount of European admixture in their ancestry? And can reasonably pass, be accepted as white people? Sephardic and Ashkenazi in particular. I don't know much about Jews that never left the Middle East to begin with. But I would imagine that they look more like Arabs and North Africans.


Just because a Jewish person is from Eastern Europe doesn't mean that Jewish person is racially European. Genetically the Jewish people as a whole are West Asian; their Y-DNA haplogroups are not European in origin and most of their mtDNA haplogroups aren't European either. On top of this, a lot of West Asians can easily pass off as Southern European.

Hell, there are West Asians that can pass as Northern European. This idea that everyone from the ME is dark brown with dark hair and dark eyes is hilariously stereotypical and ignores the wide diversity of people in the region.
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Socrathens
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Postby Socrathens » Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:29 pm

Insaanistan wrote:
Kyundao wrote:
Just because a Jewish person is from Eastern Europe doesn't mean that Jewish person is racially European. Genetically the Jewish people as a whole are West Asian; their Y-DNA haplogroups are not European in origin and most of their mtDNA haplogroups aren't European either. On top of this, a lot of West Asians can easily pass off as Southern European.

Many do. I wouldn’t want a pale skinned Arab playing Cleopatra. An Egyptian, Berber or relatively light-skinned Ethiopian should play her.


How about we ask a GREEK or MACEDONIAN woman to play her? After all, if authenticity is what we are going for here, that's what we should be looking for...

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Borderlands of Rojava
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Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:33 pm

Insaanistan wrote:I heard about this, and no, an Israeli should not play an Egyptian queen.

As for what the ancient Egyptians looked like, well, that would be a lot like asking what an Arab looks like.
However, to say “Ancient Egyptian were white” would be false.
While yes, there were periods when ethnic Greeks ruled Egypt, occasional intermixing with black and brown Egyptians and life under the hot Egyptian sun had made them much darker than their Aegean counterparts. Egyptians were varying mixes of Abyssinian, Nubian/Kushite, Greek and Italian, and Coptic ancestry. Now, it’s that plus Arab ancestry, occasionally some Turkish ancestry, and in some relatively rare cases, Hausa ancestry.

Basically, if you want to portray an Egyptian correctly, use an actual Egyptian, or your average Arab, or even an Ethiopian or Sudanese.

But not an Israeli. Definitely not an Israeli.


The average Israeli looks like your average Arab. I've been there before and I couldn't tell them apart based on phenotype alone.
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The Marlborough
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Postby The Marlborough » Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:33 pm

Kathy Griffin should have played Cleopatra.
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Borderlands of Rojava
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Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:34 pm

Insaanistan wrote:
Atheris wrote:A person of Middle Eastern descent is playing a woman (kind of) from the Middle East! The outrage! The horror!


Considering most Israelis are of mainly or entirely Eastern and Central European descent and like Gabot look visibly European, and Cleopatra would likely have looked at least moderately brown-skinned, and the history of Egyptian history being whitewashed, I’d say the anger is justifiable.


Most Israelis are of southern european or middle eastern heritage. Keep in mind too there are many pale skinned people from North Africa and the Middle east.
The devil is out there. Hiding behind every corner and in every nook and cranny. In all of the dives, all over the city. Before you lays an entire world of enemies, and at day's end when the chips are down, we're a society of strangers. You cant walk by someone on the street anymore without crossing the road to get away from their stare. Welcome to the Twilight Zone. The land of plague and shadow. Nothing innocent survives this world. If it can't corrupt you, it'll kill you.

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Nanatsu no Tsuki
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Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:34 pm

What’s the name of that woman that played Toula in My Big Fat Greek Wedding? Maybe she could play Cleo here.

Nia Vardalos.
Last edited by Nanatsu no Tsuki on Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Borderlands of Rojava
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Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:36 pm

Socrathens wrote:Cleopatra was the daughter of a brother-sister marriage. So her parents were definitely of the same genetic stock.

Her parents were the son and daughter of one of the Ptolemies and his GREEK Mistress, Irene.

So that's inbred Macedonian + Greek beauty (with blonde hair - back when some Greeks still had blonde hair).

How the **** do people consider any of that "a woman of colour"? Tanned, maybe - I don't know whether she liked to sunbathe after or before bathing in she-asses' milk...

Not a fan of whitewashing (annoyed by it, usually). But this is going equally wrong in the other direction. This is painting everything non-western black.

History is NOT a coloring book. Enough already.


Oh God her parents were siblings.
Last edited by Borderlands of Rojava on Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The devil is out there. Hiding behind every corner and in every nook and cranny. In all of the dives, all over the city. Before you lays an entire world of enemies, and at day's end when the chips are down, we're a society of strangers. You cant walk by someone on the street anymore without crossing the road to get away from their stare. Welcome to the Twilight Zone. The land of plague and shadow. Nothing innocent survives this world. If it can't corrupt you, it'll kill you.

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Borderlands of Rojava
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Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:37 pm

Insaanistan wrote:
Kyundao wrote:
Just because a Jewish person is from Eastern Europe doesn't mean that Jewish person is racially European. Genetically the Jewish people as a whole are West Asian; their Y-DNA haplogroups are not European in origin and most of their mtDNA haplogroups aren't European either. On top of this, a lot of West Asians can easily pass off as Southern European.

Many do. I wouldn’t want a pale skinned Arab playing Cleopatra. An Egyptian, Berber or relatively light-skinned Ethiopian should play her.


Because the ancient Egyptians didn't look Ethiopian. And many berbers are pale skinned. And cleopatra based on what I've read was rather pale. And she was a Greek.
The devil is out there. Hiding behind every corner and in every nook and cranny. In all of the dives, all over the city. Before you lays an entire world of enemies, and at day's end when the chips are down, we're a society of strangers. You cant walk by someone on the street anymore without crossing the road to get away from their stare. Welcome to the Twilight Zone. The land of plague and shadow. Nothing innocent survives this world. If it can't corrupt you, it'll kill you.

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Autumn Wind
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Postby Autumn Wind » Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:42 pm

Weren’t the Ptolemies notorious for inbreeding?
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Borderlands of Rojava
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Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:43 pm

Autumn Wind wrote:Weren’t the Ptolemies notorious for inbreeding?


Their offspring must have not been too healthy. We all know what happens when you have kids whose grandparents are the same on both sides.
The devil is out there. Hiding behind every corner and in every nook and cranny. In all of the dives, all over the city. Before you lays an entire world of enemies, and at day's end when the chips are down, we're a society of strangers. You cant walk by someone on the street anymore without crossing the road to get away from their stare. Welcome to the Twilight Zone. The land of plague and shadow. Nothing innocent survives this world. If it can't corrupt you, it'll kill you.

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Nanatsu no Tsuki
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Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:43 pm

Autumn Wind wrote:Weren’t the Ptolemies notorious for inbreeding?


They were. They adopted that practice quite fast from the other dynasties.
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Borderlands of Rojava
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Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:45 pm

Egyptian Pharoahs must have been pretty messed up if their parents were siblings. How did the royal legacy even last with all that inbreeding?
The devil is out there. Hiding behind every corner and in every nook and cranny. In all of the dives, all over the city. Before you lays an entire world of enemies, and at day's end when the chips are down, we're a society of strangers. You cant walk by someone on the street anymore without crossing the road to get away from their stare. Welcome to the Twilight Zone. The land of plague and shadow. Nothing innocent survives this world. If it can't corrupt you, it'll kill you.

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Atheris
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Postby Atheris » Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:46 pm

Autumn Wind wrote:Weren’t the Ptolemies notorious for inbreeding?

Yes. Almost every co-ruler was married to their sibling.
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Nanatsu no Tsuki
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Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:46 pm

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:Egyptian Pharoahs must have been pretty messed up if their parents were siblings. How did the royal legacy even last with all that inbreeding?


It didn’t last. With subsequent marriages between siblings, it weakened entirely. Why do you think the Ptolemies were able to take hold of it?
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Atheris
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Postby Atheris » Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:47 pm

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:Egyptian Pharoahs must have been pretty messed up if their parents were siblings. How did the royal legacy even last with all that inbreeding?

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha.
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Costa Fierro
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Postby Costa Fierro » Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:48 pm

Insaanistan wrote:I heard about this, and no, an Israeli should not play an Egyptian queen.

As for what the ancient Egyptians looked like, well, that would be a lot like asking what an Arab looks like.
However, to say “Ancient Egyptian were white” would be false.
While yes, there were periods when ethnic Greeks ruled Egypt, occasional intermixing with black and brown Egyptians and life under the hot Egyptian sun had made them much darker than their Aegean counterparts. Egyptians were varying mixes of Abyssinian, Nubian/Kushite, Greek and Italian, and Coptic ancestry. Now, it’s that plus Arab ancestry, occasionally some Turkish ancestry, and in some relatively rare cases, Hausa ancestry.

Basically, if you want to portray an Egyptian correctly, use an actual Egyptian, or your average Arab, or even an Ethiopian or Sudanese.

But not an Israeli. Definitely not an Israeli.


Egypt wasn't Islamicised until several centuries after the death of Cleopatra. It has existed for longer as a non-Muslim country than it has as a Muslim.
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Rusozak
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Postby Rusozak » Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:49 pm

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
Borderlands of Rojava wrote:Egyptian Pharoahs must have been pretty messed up if their parents were siblings. How did the royal legacy even last with all that inbreeding?


It didn’t last. With subsequent marriages between siblings, it weakened entirely. Why do you think the Ptolemies were able to take hold of it?


Because Ptolemy was a friend of Alexander the Great when he took Egypt from the Persians?
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Atheris
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Postby Atheris » Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:49 pm

Rusozak wrote:
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
It didn’t last. With subsequent marriages between siblings, it weakened entirely. Why do you think the Ptolemies were able to take hold of it?


Because Ptolemy was a friend of Alexander the Great when he took Egypt from the Persians?

Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding! We've got a winner!
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Nanatsu no Tsuki
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Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:50 pm

Rusozak wrote:
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
It didn’t last. With subsequent marriages between siblings, it weakened entirely. Why do you think the Ptolemies were able to take hold of it?


Because Ptolemy was a friend of Alexander the Great when he took Egypt from the Persians?


And the Egyptian dynasties have been weakened by generations of inbreeding.
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