What did the Ancient Egyptians look like?

[Insaanistan]

Looks Amhara

Even within Amharic people. I know there is a certain Amharic "look," but I've also met a bunch of Amharas who didn't look like that.

Same.

[Debate Proxy 1]

Interesting Libyans were painted as fairly light.

I think they are indeed lighter-skinned than the Egyptians, perhaps the same tone as they depicted Asians (Levantines, the Hyksos who ruled Egypt before the New Kingdom period). Nowadays, even after centuries of interbreeding and gene mixing, Southern Europeans from Sicily and Northern Africans from Tunisia for example looks similar enough. The Ancient Egyptian skin tone is a rather tan hue, similar to what you would classify as Brown (think Hindi/Punjabi Indians, Central Americans, SE Asians e.g. Malay, Indonesian, etc.) They are certainly not black Africans (those are Nubians; they did ruled Egypt, I forgot which dynasty, but only in a short time period before being overthrown by a native lord), and they obviously weren't white to the degree of Greeks/Southern Italians either. Egyptians are their own, extremely unique and fascinating group of people.

Even Nubians weren't always black, though. Sort of a similar story compared to the appearance range of Amhara people. Once upon a time in human history, nations could be constructed pretty freely before the idea of race arose.

[Sarderia]

I think they are indeed lighter-skinned than the Egyptians, perhaps the same tone as they depicted Asians (Levantines, the Hyksos who ruled Egypt before the New Kingdom period). Nowadays, even after centuries of interbreeding and gene mixing, Southern Europeans from Sicily and Northern Africans from Tunisia for example looks similar enough. The Ancient Egyptian skin tone is a rather tan hue, similar to what you would classify as Brown (think Hindi/Punjabi Indians, Central Americans, SE Asians e.g. Malay, Indonesian, etc.) They are certainly not black Africans (those are Nubians; they did ruled Egypt, I forgot which dynasty, but only in a short time period before being overthrown by a native lord), and they obviously weren't white to the degree of Greeks/Southern Italians either. Egyptians are their own, extremely unique and fascinating group of people.

Even Nubians weren't always black, though. Sort of a similar story compared to the appearance range of Amhara people. Once upon a time in human history, nations could be constructed pretty freely before the idea of race arose.

That is always the case with every ancient society - if you follow their manners, speak their language, do their customs, follow their religion, and integrate - you are automatically a member of that civilization. That is why we don't see Ancient Egyptians distance themselves from Nubians the way they regard themselves different than other civilizations, because the Nubians and Egyptians had the same gods (largely), spoke a similar, if not a different branch of language (Meroitic and Coptic), share the same religious customs (the Nubians also write Hieroglyphs, I think, and Sudan owns even more pyramids than Egypt).

To be fair, let's take another comparison; if you speak Latin, pray to Jupiter and Caesar, don the Toga and other Roman garbs, serve as a Legionnary, you're automatically Roman; even though you're born in a distant Syrian desert. Case in example Elagabalus. The concept of "race" in the modern form (of skin tones, racism, etc.) really only emerged after the golden age of European imperialism.

[Page]

I think that it's justified to demand more representation for people of color but it's embarrassing that so many people are ignorant of the fact that Cleopatra and her entire dynasty were Greeks. I hate the circle jerk of "political correctness gone mad" and therefore I wish people did a little googling before complaining about an "Egyptian" being played by a white actress, it's fuel for all of the reactionaries and no doubt they will milk the fuck out of this.

[Infected Mushroom]

I think that it's justified to demand more representation for people of color but it's embarrassing that so many people are ignorant of the fact that Cleopatra and her entire dynasty were Greeks. I hate the circle jerk of "political correctness gone mad" and therefore I wish people did a little googling before complaining about an "Egyptian" being played by a white actress, it's fuel for all of the reactionaries and no doubt they will milk the fuck out of this.

G... Greek? 0_0

Is that so???? I’m shocked.

[Page]

I think that it's justified to demand more representation for people of color but it's embarrassing that so many people are ignorant of the fact that Cleopatra and her entire dynasty were Greeks. I hate the circle jerk of "political correctness gone mad" and therefore I wish people did a little googling before complaining about an "Egyptian" being played by a white actress, it's fuel for all of the reactionaries and no doubt they will milk the fuck out of this.

G... Greek? 0_0

Is that so???? I’m shocked.

The short version of the story is that Alexander the Great conquered half the known world and then died young and his successors immediately divided the empire among themselves, none of them able to rule all of Alexander's empire. The Ptolemy dynasty became the new rulers of Egypt. Lots and lots of sibling sex later eventually Rome took over.

[Debate Proxy 1]

Even Nubians weren't always black, though. Sort of a similar story compared to the appearance range of Amhara people. Once upon a time in human history, nations could be constructed pretty freely before the idea of race arose.

That is always the case with every ancient society - if you follow their manners, speak their language, do their customs, follow their religion, and integrate - you are automatically a member of that civilization. That is why we don't see Ancient Egyptians distance themselves from Nubians the way they regard themselves different than other civilizations, because the Nubians and Egyptians had the same gods (largely), spoke a similar, if not a different branch of language (Meroitic and Coptic), share the same religious customs (the Nubians also write Hieroglyphs, I think, and Sudan owns even more pyramids than Egypt).

To be fair, let's take another comparison; if you speak Latin, pray to Jupiter and Caesar, don the Toga and other Roman garbs, serve as a Legionnary, you're automatically Roman; even though you're born in a distant Syrian desert. Case in example Elagabalus. The concept of "race" in the modern form (of skin tones, racism, etc.) really only emerged after the golden age of European imperialism.

Actually, those are some very good points.

[Sarderia]

I think that it's justified to demand more representation for people of color but it's embarrassing that so many people are ignorant of the fact that Cleopatra and her entire dynasty were Greeks. I hate the circle jerk of "political correctness gone mad" and therefore I wish people did a little googling before complaining about an "Egyptian" being played by a white actress, it's fuel for all of the reactionaries and no doubt they will milk the fuck out of this.

G... Greek? 0_0

Is that so???? I’m shocked.

From the name, obviously Greek:

Kleopátra (Κλεοπάτρα), meaning "glory of her father", from κλέος (kléos, "glory") and πᾰτήρ(patḗr, "father")

And she's pretty much well-known as a Greek, i.e. different than the average Egyptian look

[Nevertopia]

something like this i assume.

[Baltenstein]

Just gonna smh in disgust that this is even a topic. The entire debate is so bizarre and absurd that I don't even know what to make fun about first:

- the idea that Cleopatra was ethnically Egyptian, when she was famously Greek, altough I guess I should be glad that the Republic of Northern Macedonia isn't claiming her also and wants a blonde Slavic woman for the role
- even worse, the idea that she was ethnically black (I know "We Wuz Kangz" is a horrible racist meme, but come on)
- the idea that a member of a foreign-descended, notoriously inbred dynasty living in a certain region 2000 years ago absolutely must look like you average person living in the same region today
- that Egyptians are "People of Color" while Israelis who live right next to them apparently are not
- that "People of Color" is a thing anyway - lumping together vastly different groups on arbitrary grounds, while segregating others - like Israelis and Egyptians, who originate in the same region and speak closely related languages - Hebrew, Ancient Egyptian and Arab all belong to the Semitic languages
- and worst of all, that one's bloodline and "race" should be a decisive factor when being cast for a role

"Race is everything and everything is about race"
- Northern European racists, ca. 1920

"Race is everything and everything is about race"
- Certain 'progressives', ca. 2020

The mummy DNA study highlights the irony of the anti-Gadot campaign. Inadvertently it makes a very good argument for casting the Israeli actress in the role of the Egyptian queen. If indeed Cleopatra had mixed Greek and ancient Egyptian heritage and if we accept that ancestry should be a factor when choosing an actor to play a historical character (a big if)

[Albrenia]

I agree that the worst part of this is not the annoying know-nothing know-it-alls making a fuss about something they don't understand, it's that it gives ammo to the actual racist 'race realist' types who want to whine about 'Political Correctness gone mad' and pretend their pet totally-not-eugenics theories aren't the racist claptrap that it clearly is.

[EnragedMaldivians]

To which ethnic group should an actor cast to play Alexander's general Ptolemy, the founder of the dynasty Cleopatra was part of, belong to? I might be mistaken but my understanding is that following the demise of the New Kingdom, Ancient Egypt was ruled by foreigners. I don't see anything wrong with this particular casting.

[Kandorith]

While Cleopatra was Greek and even famously so, the average Egyptian looked quite different.

Concerning the history of Egypt the people most likely looked like a mix between Persians, Greeks, Romans and other west-asian cultures. One of the most well known examples of the ancient Egyptians is the reconstruction of Ramses II's face, both by scientists and AI.

I think that should give anyone a rough idea.

The entire outrage about the actress playing Cleopatra is just silly and in a lot of cases even plain anti-semitism. I even laughed and face palmed at some of the statements made like: "Just like the other races always steal Arab lands, they now too steal Arab heritage and film roles".

Which is ironic as Cleopatra obviously wasn't Arabic and the last conquerors of ancient Egypt were; the Arabs.

[Twicetagram and JYPe]

God, they could just have hired a descendant of the ancient Egyptians to play the role
/s

in all seriousness, who cares about the casting? It's not like anyone would be offended by the casting other than ancient Egyptboos.

[Sarderia]

Well, the Greeks and Romans didn’t out of fear of being overthrown. The erosion of Ancient Egyptian culture was quite gradual and mainly of free will (especially at the beginning of Muslim rule). Much of it was because as people accepted Islam, they got rid off practices non-compatible with Islam.

Whitewashing garbage. Stop perpetrating the "tolerant Muslim conquerors" myth.

To be fair, the conqueror Amr' ibn al-Aas was very tolerant for the time. He restored the Coptic patriarch in Alexandria, and also protected the Coptic churches from being disturbed by Chalcedonists. But that's pretty much as far as it goes, as future rulers implemented a religion-based apartheid (they called the native Egyptians and later Egyptians who held on their coptic faith as Qubt, not Misri/Egyptian), they imposed an extremely heavy jizya in times of state hardships (that culminated in several rebellions a century after Egypt is conquered, such as the Bashmurian revolt), and they banned the use of human forms in art (well, by the way, almost all Christian churches at least has a single piece of art that depicted Humans)

[Karakars]

Even in the time of ancient Egypt, Greek historians literally refused to write about the dynasty in Egypt when black Nubians ruled. They didn’t really even try to hide that they were hiding something: they literally skipped the entire dynasty and didn’t rename the next one to make it seem like the Nubian duke never occurred.

I'd rather assume that they missed Dynasty #23 - the one that was concurrent with #22, and wrongly gave #24 number 23.

Another explanation is that #24 was quickly retreating because of the Assyrians, and that those two invasions were lumped into one.

Or maybe the Assyrians forbade mentioning the previous dynasty?

------------

NOT EVERYTHING IS ABOUT RACISM. Racism is found in all times and cultures, but it is never found to explain every and all wrong.

[The New California Republic]

[Karakars]

Just gonna smh in disgust that this is even a topic. The entire debate is so bizarre and absurd that I don't even know what to make fun about first:

- the idea that Cleopatra was ethnically Egyptian, when she was famously Greek, altough I guess I should be glad that the Republic of Northern Macedonia isn't claiming her also and wants a blonde Slavic woman for the role
- even worse, the idea that she was ethnically black (I know "We Wuz Kangz" is a horrible racist meme, but come on)
- the idea that a member of a foreign-descended, notoriously inbred dynasty living in a certain region 2000 years ago absolutely must look like you average person living in the same region today
- that Egyptians are "People of Color" while Israelis who live right next to them apparently are not
- that "People of Color" is a thing anyway - lumping together vastly different groups on arbitrary grounds, while segregating others - like Israelis and Egyptians, who originate in the same region and speak closely related languages - Hebrew, Ancient Egyptian and Arab all belong to the Semitic languages
- and worst of all, that one's bloodline and "race" should be a decisive factor when being cast for a role

"Race is everything and everything is about race"
- Northern European racists, ca. 1920

"Race is everything and everything is about race"
- Certain 'progressives', ca. 2020

Completely agree - just one minor correction.

Hebrew (ancient and modern) are West-Semitic languages, but Egyptian (whether Hieroglyphic, Hieratic, Demotoic, or Coptic) is not. The Egyptian languages are a sister branch of the Semitic languages with the Afro-Asiatic language family.

In the same way, Greek (any of four/five ancient varieties and the modern variety) is a standalone branch of the Indo-European languages, related to that whole branch of all the Germanic languages including English, but never part of that Germanic branch.

[Kandorith]

Even in the time of ancient Egypt, Greek historians literally refused to write about the dynasty in Egypt when black Nubians ruled. They didn’t really even try to hide that they were hiding something: they literally skipped the entire dynasty and didn’t rename the next one to make it seem like the Nubian duke never occurred.

I'd rather assume that they missed Dynasty #23 - the one that was concurrent with #22, and wrongly gave #24 number 23.

Another explanation is that #24 was quickly retreating because of the Assyrians, and that those two invasions were lumped into one.

Or maybe the Assyrians forbade mentioning the previous dynasty?

------------

NOT EVERYTHING IS ABOUT RACISM. Racism is found in all times and cultures, but it is never found to explain every and all wrong.

I believe the Nubian rule over Egypt was the 25th Dynastic rule, its quite well recorded and as far as I know: not very eventful apart from the Assyrian conquest. The 23rd were Libyan/Berber rulers.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

I'd rather assume that they missed Dynasty #23 - the one that was concurrent with #22, and wrongly gave #24 number 23.

Another explanation is that #24 was quickly retreating because of the Assyrians, and that those two invasions were lumped into one.

Or maybe the Assyrians forbade mentioning the previous dynasty?

------------

NOT EVERYTHING IS ABOUT RACISM. Racism is found in all times and cultures, but it is never found to explain every and all wrong.

I believe the Nubian rule over Egypt was the 25th Dynastic rule, its quite well recorded and as far as I know: not very eventful. The 23rd were Libyan/Berber rulers.

So around that time random people were just showing up like "alright I'm king of Egypt now"?

[Borderlands of Rojava]

Just gonna smh in disgust that this is even a topic. The entire debate is so bizarre and absurd that I don't even know what to make fun about first:

- the idea that Cleopatra was ethnically Egyptian, when she was famously Greek, altough I guess I should be glad that the Republic of Northern Macedonia isn't claiming her also and wants a blonde Slavic woman for the role
- even worse, the idea that she was ethnically black (I know "We Wuz Kangz" is a horrible racist meme, but come on)
- the idea that a member of a foreign-descended, notoriously inbred dynasty living in a certain region 2000 years ago absolutely must look like you average person living in the same region today
- that Egyptians are "People of Color" while Israelis who live right next to them apparently are not
- that "People of Color" is a thing anyway - lumping together vastly different groups on arbitrary grounds, while segregating others - like Israelis and Egyptians, who originate in the same region and speak closely related languages - Hebrew, Ancient Egyptian and Arab all belong to the Semitic languages
- and worst of all, that one's bloodline and "race" should be a decisive factor when being cast for a role

"Race is everything and everything is about race"
- Northern European racists, ca. 1920

"Race is everything and everything is about race"
- Certain 'progressives', ca. 2020

The mummy DNA study highlights the irony of the anti-Gadot campaign. Inadvertently it makes a very good argument for casting the Israeli actress in the role of the Egyptian queen. If indeed Cleopatra had mixed Greek and ancient Egyptian heritage and if we accept that ancestry should be a factor when choosing an actor to play a historical character (a big if)

Yeah somehow Gal Gadot is white so we need to hire an Arab or Egyptian actor who isn't. That totally makes sense.

[Kandorith]

I believe the Nubian rule over Egypt was the 25th Dynastic rule, its quite well recorded and as far as I know: not very eventful. The 23rd were Libyan/Berber rulers.

So around that time random people were just showing up like "alright I'm king of Egypt now"?

That's kinda the way to describe all the Intermediate periods of Egypt, yes. In these periods the Egyptian realm had, in general, weak leaders and a very fragile stability making it a prey to larger kingdoms who had previously been attacked by Egypt. Basically nothing much happened during these periods other than Egypt being conquered by almost every civilization around them.

[Karakars]

G... Greek? 0_0

Is that so???? I’m shocked.

From the name, obviously Greek:

Kleopátra (Κλεοπάτρα), meaning "glory of her father", from κλέος (kléos, "glory") and πᾰτήρ(patḗr, "father")

And she's pretty much well-known as a Greek, i.e. different than the average Egyptian look

The Ptolemies had three of four names that they used over and over again:

Ptolemy (after the halfbrother of Alexander the Great who founded the dynasty)
Alexander (after the first Macedonian to rule Egypt)
Berenice (after the second wife of Ptolemy I, who was mother of the next pharaoh)
Cleopatra (after Alexander the Great's little sister)

Please note that not only are these names Greek, they were all in the Macedonian accent too. Had Berenice been born around Athens, her name would have been Pherenice. Cleopatra would have been Cleiopatra, and Ptolemy would have been Polemy.

[Albionist Great Britain]

As far as I’m aware, Ancient Egyptians weren’t necessarily African but more Mediterranean. The pre-Arab population was a mixture of native Kemetic Egyptians, Greeks, Latins, Levantines and Nubian rather than what people usually think of when mentioning POCs (descendants of Subsaharan Africans - an entirely different collection of people with no relations to the Ancient Egyptians).

And given Cleopatra was Greco-Egyptian IIRC, there’s no real reason for a POC to play the role.

[The Blaatschapen]

They looked like humans.

Nice humans, they tended sheep