NationStates

Atheris wrote:

Vellandorra wrote:So what about 1300-1796? Not counting people weren't vaccined until much later...

The Black Death, which wiped out 2/3s of Europe, approximately 11% of the estimated global population at that time. The Columbian Exchange, which drove the Amerindians to near-extinction. The Great Plague of London, which killed 20% of its population in 1665. The cholera vaccine didn't exist until 1885, and between its first emergence in 1817 and that time it killed approximately 2,423,536 people (using estimates on Wikipedia).

Only 11%??? 20%??? I expected more...

You also seem to forget hygiene was worse at the time.

Also have outbreaks disappeared today now that many are vaccinated?

Plzen wrote:New Zealand is apparently "embracing a form of totalitarianism" now, which is just one more sign that terminology in politics are increasingly devoid of any substantive meaning. Maybe Nineteen Eighty-Four had a point and in the end all we really need to carry on political discourse to the standard that seems to be dominant today is one word that just means "ideas we agree with" and one word for "ideas of our enemies". Who needs proper definitions for ideological terms anyways?

I have plenty of sources that show how New Zealand is losing its freedoms. New Zealand Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern is horrible. I wouldn't be surprised if they also require mandatory vaccines.

Strict lockdowns and forced closure of businesses:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurk ... 33625c5c26

Neo-Nazi Sentenced to 21 Months in Prison For Sharing Video of Mosque Massacre and Calling it 'Awesome'

https://gizmodo.com/neo-nazi-sentenced- ... 1835604984

New Zealand Passes Law Banning Most Semi-Automatic Weapons

https://www.npr.org/2019/04/10/71182002 ... ic-weapons

New Zealand banned citizens from traveling abroad

https://travelbans.org/oceania-australia/new-zealand/

Vellandorra wrote:

Atheris wrote:The Black Death, which wiped out 2/3s of Europe, approximately 11% of the estimated global population at that time. The Columbian Exchange, which drove the Amerindians to near-extinction. The Great Plague of London, which killed 20% of its population in 1665. The cholera vaccine didn't exist until 1885, and between its first emergence in 1817 and that time it killed approximately 2,423,536 people (using estimates on Wikipedia).

Only 11%??? 20%??? I expected more...

You also seem to forget hygiene was worse at the time.

No, I didn't. You also didn't bring that up. You just asked me what happened between 1300 and 1793, plague-wise.

Freiheit Reich wrote:https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health ... nd-immoral

It's the slippery slope fallacy. If we mandate vaccinations then what's to stop mandates of all kinds of medication.

Gee, I don't know. Maybe a law?

The article also mentions "mandated" medication for children. As far as I'm aware, there's no such thing. That is always at the discretion of the parent.

OK, how about this. Since small children already have no choice about vaccination (the parent chooses), there is no argument of freedom giving parents that right, which precludes the State doing so.

Therefore, medical treatment for small children can be mandated by government without violating anybody's "freedom".

Resilient Acceleration wrote:

The Blaatschapen wrote:The idea that the government only makes money through taxes is a laughable one.

For years the Dutch government made money by selling gas. Of course, the initial investment to pump the gas was done by taxes, but it is/was basically a government owned company. And rather than some private investors, the shareholder is the government, and the revenue went to the government rather than the private investor.

Isn't this the origin of the term "Dutch Disease"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_disease

Well, yes and no. The discovery of the gas field indeed made other sectors of dutch industry less lucrative.

But that is not because of the government investing into the field. If the private sector had done it, similar would have happened

Atheris wrote:

Vellandorra wrote:Only 11%??? 20%??? I expected more...

You also seem to forget hygiene was worse at the time.

No, I didn't. You also didn't bring that up. You just asked me what happened between 1300 and 1793, plague-wise.

Did outbreaks disappear after mass vaccination?

Plzen wrote:It has been less than half a century since humanity eradicated smallpox, a disease which killed a third of a billion people in the 20th Century, through mass vaccination campaigns organised through monumental international effort. It was no less a triumph of science than the moon landings or the internet.

How quickly we forget.

People seem to have terminally short memories when it comes to remembering how awful life used to be before we had all this nifty technology. I mean, the statistics and the analysis are right there, for free on the internet.

The topic is not whether vaccines are good or bad, it is whether they should be required. I am happy that vaccines have been invented and reduced threats of many diseases. However, it doesn't mean the govt. has the right to require them. The same goes for seatbelts in cars, bicycle helmets, etc...

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:

Freiheit Reich wrote:https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health ... nd-immoral

It's the slippery slope fallacy. If we mandate vaccinations then what's to stop mandates of all kinds of medication.

Gee, I don't know. Maybe a law?

The article also mentions "mandated" medication for children. As far as I'm aware, there's no such thing. That is always at the discretion of the parent.

OK, how about this. Since small children already have no choice about vaccination (the parent chooses), there is no argument of freedom giving parents that right, which precludes the State doing so.

Therefore, medical treatment for small children can be mandated by government without violating anybody's "freedom".

So why we don't let them choose later?

Vellandorra wrote:What part don't you understand of correlation does NOT equal causality?

See, the world puts out a research output amounting to ~2.5 million scientific papers a year. I cannot possibly read, let alone understand, all of that. I am not and will never be an expert on the vast majority of the scientific world's fields of study, and that includes epidemiology or immunology.

So, I must take my worldview from the understanding of others. In doing so I could either trust the people who have spent their lives studying those things, whose knowledge of the basics were institutionally tested and whose expertise were hardened by the challenge of their peers in academic institutions, or I can trust the people who ramble on the internet.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure vaccines reduce disease.

Plzen wrote:

Vellandorra wrote:What part don't you understand of correlation does NOT equal causality?

See, the world puts out a research output amounting to ~2.5 million scientific papers a year. I cannot possibly read, let alone understand, all of that. I am not and will never be an expert on the vast majority of the scientific world's fields of study, and that includes epidemiology or immunology.

So I could either trust the people who have spent their lives studying those things, whose knowledge of the basics were institutionally tested and whose expertise were hardened by the challenge of their peers in academic institutions, or I can trust the people who ramble on the internet.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure vaccines reduce disease.

And can't experts be wrong???

Freiheit Reich wrote:

Plzen wrote:New Zealand is apparently "embracing a form of totalitarianism" now, which is just one more sign that terminology in politics are increasingly devoid of any substantive meaning. Maybe Nineteen Eighty-Four had a point and in the end all we really need to carry on political discourse to the standard that seems to be dominant today is one word that just means "ideas we agree with" and one word for "ideas of our enemies". Who needs proper definitions for ideological terms anyways?

I have plenty of sources that show how New Zealand is losing its freedoms. New Zealand Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern is horrible. I wouldn't be surprised if they also require mandatory vaccines.

Strict lockdowns and forced closure of businesses:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurk ... 33625c5c26

Neo-Nazi Sentenced to 21 Months in Prison For Sharing Video of Mosque Massacre and Calling it 'Awesome'

https://gizmodo.com/neo-nazi-sentenced- ... 1835604984

New Zealand Passes Law Banning Most Semi-Automatic Weapons

https://www.npr.org/2019/04/10/71182002 ... ic-weapons

New Zealand banned citizens from traveling abroad

https://travelbans.org/oceania-australia/new-zealand/

AND THEY KILLED THE VIRUS.

There are almost no restrictions now (the travel ban is one) while even Australia still lives with the uncertainty and restrictions, and no end in sight.

NZ fucking rocks, and the counter example of the US shows very plainly that "my freedom matters more than your life" isn't going to turn good any time soon.

Vellandorra wrote:And can't experts be wrong???

Oh, experts can be wrong, and they are wrong quite often. But a person with no accreditation saying so on spurious evidence isn't going to convince me, or frankly any other reasonable person, that they are.

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:

Freiheit Reich wrote:
I have plenty of sources that show how New Zealand is losing its freedoms. New Zealand Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern is horrible. I wouldn't be surprised if they also require mandatory vaccines.

Strict lockdowns and forced closure of businesses:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurk ... 33625c5c26

Neo-Nazi Sentenced to 21 Months in Prison For Sharing Video of Mosque Massacre and Calling it 'Awesome'

https://gizmodo.com/neo-nazi-sentenced- ... 1835604984

New Zealand Passes Law Banning Most Semi-Automatic Weapons

https://www.npr.org/2019/04/10/71182002 ... ic-weapons

New Zealand banned citizens from traveling abroad

https://travelbans.org/oceania-australia/new-zealand/

AND THEY KILLED THE VIRUS.

There are almost no restrictions now (the travel ban is one) while even Australia still lives with the uncertainty and restrictions, and no end in sight.

NZ fucking rocks, and the counter example of the US shows very plainly that "my freedom matters more than your life" isn't going to turn good any time soon.

There are many countries that did without any or very few restrictions.

Plzen wrote:

Vellandorra wrote:And can't experts be wrong???

Oh, experts can be wrong, and they are wrong quite often. But a person with no accreditation saying so on spurious evidence isn't going to convince me, or frankly any other reasonable person, that they are.

So why do you believe them more?

Vellandorra wrote:

Atheris wrote:No, I didn't. You also didn't bring that up. You just asked me what happened between 1300 and 1793, plague-wise.

Did outbreaks disappear after mass vaccination?

For the most part, yes.

Freiheit Reich wrote:

Plzen wrote:It has been less than half a century since humanity eradicated smallpox, a disease which killed a third of a billion people in the 20th Century, through mass vaccination campaigns organised through monumental international effort. It was no less a triumph of science than the moon landings or the internet.

How quickly we forget.

People seem to have terminally short memories when it comes to remembering how awful life used to be before we had all this nifty technology. I mean, the statistics and the analysis are right there, for free on the internet.

The topic is not whether vaccines are good or bad, it is whether they should be required. I am happy that vaccines have been invented and reduced threats of many diseases. However, it doesn't mean the govt. has the right to require them. The same goes for seatbelts in cars, bicycle helmets, etc...

Seatbelts in cars save (a few) lives of non-drivers, so in that case it IS sort of the same. Yes, if only for the other people, seat belts should be mandatory.

Bicycle helmets save the brains of the cyclist themselves, so it's different. Other people's lives are not endangered by a bare head. However, unless you're going to barbarically kill brain-damaged victims of a bicycle accident, the taxpayer is going to pay for their hospitalization and pension. It's a different argument, but may carry more weight with some people: helmets save taxpayer money.

I don’t think anybody should be forced to put something in their body but I do think parents of children who get sick or die because they refused to vaccinate them should be held responsible

Mandatory vaccines for all, and if people say no, we backhand them into the Sun.

Atheris wrote:

Vellandorra wrote:Did outbreaks disappear after mass vaccination?

For the most part, yes.

Avian influenza, ebola, Crimea-Congo fever, polio and much more.

Untecna wrote:Mandatory vaccines for all, and if people say no, we backhand them into the Sun.

Why?

Vellandorra wrote:

Untecna wrote:Mandatory vaccines for all, and if people say no, we backhand them into the Sun.

Why?

Just because

The vaccines are being manufactured with human cellular tissue. Cells of human tissue that have been spawned from the cells of aborted fetal humans, which have been genetically engineered to reproduce themselves repeatedly. If I am vaccinated with the living, cellular tissue of a dead human being, I am not only benefitting from and endorsing abortion, but I also become in effect a cannibal, breaking the dietary aspects of Mosaic Law in the most obscene way, and I'll resist the use of criminal justice to intimidate me to disobey my deeply religious convictions.

Turelisa- wrote:The vaccines are being manufactured with human cellular tissue. Cells of human tissue that have been spawned from the cells of aborted fetal humans, which have been genetically engineered to reproduce themselves repeatedly. If I am vaccinated with the living, cellular tissue of a dead human being, I am not only benefitting from and endorsing abortion, but I also become in effect a cannibal, breaking the dietary aspects of Mosaic Law in the most obscene way, and I'll resist the use of criminal justice to intimidate me to disobey my deeply religious convictions.

English, please

Untecna wrote:

Turelisa- wrote:The vaccines are being manufactured with human cellular tissue. Cells of human tissue that have been spawned from the cells of aborted fetal humans, which have been genetically engineered to reproduce themselves repeatedly. If I am vaccinated with the living, cellular tissue of a dead human being, I am not only benefitting from and endorsing abortion, but I also become in effect a cannibal, breaking the dietary aspects of Mosaic Law in the most obscene way, and I'll resist the use of criminal justice to intimidate me to disobey my deeply religious convictions.

English, please

Spanish, please.

Vellandorra wrote:

Untecna wrote:English, please

Spanish, please.

German, please