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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:54 pm
by Necroghastia
Ranoria wrote:TLDR, it's not so much that people are angry about this that bothers me. It's that they're only angry when it's the right rioting, and not the left. I mean, courthouses were getting firebombed, is that not a coup, then?

Last I checked courthouses =/= the literal capitol building in the middle of an electoral certification.
So, no.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:49 pm
by Salus Maior
Necroghastia wrote:
Ranoria wrote:TLDR, it's not so much that people are angry about this that bothers me. It's that they're only angry when it's the right rioting, and not the left. I mean, courthouses were getting firebombed, is that not a coup, then?

Last I checked courthouses =/= the literal capitol building in the middle of an electoral certification.
So, no.


It's more or less two sides of the same coin; a blatant disrespect of institutions, political violence, mass unrest. All that fun stuff.

That one is more severe than the other doesn't really change that.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:56 pm
by Jedi Council
Salus Maior wrote:
Necroghastia wrote:Last I checked courthouses =/= the literal capitol building in the middle of an electoral certification.
So, no.


It's more or less two sides of the same coin; a blatant disrespect of institutions, political violence, mass unrest. All that fun stuff.

That one is more severe than the other doesn't really change that.

There is a bit of a difference; BLM can make the case, pretty damn convincingly imo, that the Justice system, as represented by say a court house, has systematically discriminated against people of colour and caused them irreparable harm in the form of mass incarceration, murder, etc.

Occupying or rioting in a court house is therefore at least understandable.

By contrast, the Capitol Hill riot had absolutely zero basis; their argument was not backed up by any serious evidence, their motivations were entirely nefarious in that they were planning on overturning a democratic election. They went into the building chanting things like "death to Pence," came equipped with zap strap handcuffs and constructed a gallows outside.

Nuance is a thing; we should be able to identify the differences in these events without resorting to this stupid "both sides" narrative.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:02 pm
by Salus Maior
Jedi Council wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
It's more or less two sides of the same coin; a blatant disrespect of institutions, political violence, mass unrest. All that fun stuff.

That one is more severe than the other doesn't really change that.

There is a bit of a difference; BLM can make the case, pretty damn convincingly imo, that the Justice system, as represented by say a court house, has systematically discriminated against people of colour and caused them irreparable harm in the form of mass incarceration, murder, etc.

Occupying or rioting in a court house is therefore at least understandable.

By contrast, the Capitol Hill riot had absolutely zero basis; their argument was not backed up by any serious evidence, their motivations were entirely nefarious in that they were planning on overturning a democratic election. They went into the building chanting things like "death to Pence," came equipped with zap strap handcuffs and constructed a gallows outside.

Nuance is a thing; we should be able to identify the differences in these events without resorting to this stupid "both sides" narrative.


You're right that there really isn't any solid evidence that the election was a fraud, but that's not what the rioters believe. They're not doing this cynically.

They have a sincere belief, baseless or no, that the election is "stolen" and that the government and the people who make up it are irredeemably corrupt. So, in the same vein of BLMers acting in the belief (again, baseless or no) that destroying courthouses makes a statement about their dissatisfaction with the justice system, Trumpers saw occupying Capitol Hill in a revolutionary act as making a statement about their dissatisfaction with the government and its perceived corruption. Which, of course, the idea that Washington is irredeemably corrupt has existed well before Trump, and played a big role in his election in the first place as Trump was supposed to "drain the swamp" if you remember.

I'm not trying to make a "both sides" narrative, even though I don't like either side insofar as what they've done. I think this is just indicative that people are losing faith in government institutions on both sides of the avenue, to the point where they will openly destroy and attack said institutions.

Looking forward to 2021.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:06 pm
by Jedi Council
Salus Maior wrote:
Jedi Council wrote:There is a bit of a difference; BLM can make the case, pretty damn convincingly imo, that the Justice system, as represented by say a court house, has systematically discriminated against people of colour and caused them irreparable harm in the form of mass incarceration, murder, etc.

Occupying or rioting in a court house is therefore at least understandable.

By contrast, the Capitol Hill riot had absolutely zero basis; their argument was not backed up by any serious evidence, their motivations were entirely nefarious in that they were planning on overturning a democratic election. They went into the building chanting things like "death to Pence," came equipped with zap strap handcuffs and constructed a gallows outside.

Nuance is a thing; we should be able to identify the differences in these events without resorting to this stupid "both sides" narrative.


You're right that there really isn't any solid evidence that the election was a fraud, but that's not what the rioters believe. They're not doing this cynically.

They have a sincere belief, baseless or no, that the election is "stolen" and that the government and the people who make up it are irredeemably corrupt. So, in the same vein of BLMers acting in the belief (again, baseless or no) that destroying courthouses makes a statement about their dissatisfaction with the justice system, Trumpers saw occupying Capitol Hill in a revolutionary act as making a statement about their dissatisfaction with the government and its perceived corruption. Which, of course, the idea that Washington is irredeemably corrupt has existed well before Trump, and played a big role in his election in the first place as Trump was supposed to "drain the swamp" if you remember.

Sincere belief doesnt matter, what matters is facts, evidence and reality.

If these people were delusional enough to believe as you say that the election was stolen, that's not a point into their favour, and should not mean we necessarily need to treat them in the same manner as BLM.

BLM's riots, which for the millionth time were not at all the majority of activities that occurred last summer, as most protests were peaceful, can provide a reasoned, evidence based assertion for why the did what they did.

The Trumpers cant.

Equating the two as if both were equally justified or unjustified is hogwash and feeds into this narrative of false equivalency.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:07 pm
by Salus Maior
Jedi Council wrote: and should not mean we necessarily need to treat them in the same manner as BLM.


I don't know about "we", but the police and security forces obviously should.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:09 pm
by Jedi Council
Salus Maior wrote:
Jedi Council wrote: and should not mean we necessarily need to treat them in the same manner as BLM.


I don't know about "we", but the police and security forces obviously should.

You know full well what I meant; try to be less transparent when your spinning something, it takes more effort but it's worth it.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:11 pm
by Salus Maior
Jedi Council wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
I don't know about "we", but the police and security forces obviously should.

You know full well what I meant; try to be less transparent when your spinning something, it takes more effort but it's worth it.


I edited in a clarification on my last post if you want to read it.

I wasn't talking about BLM as a whole, anyway. I was talking about violent rioters, which of course aren't the whole of BLM in the same way that the Capitol Hill rioters aren't the whole of Trumpers.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:16 pm
by Jedi Council
Salus Maior wrote:
Jedi Council wrote:You know full well what I meant; try to be less transparent when your spinning something, it takes more effort but it's worth it.


I edited in a clarification on my last post if you want to read it.

I wasn't talking about BLM as a whole, anyway. I was talking about violent rioters, which of course aren't the whole of BLM in the same way that the Capitol Hill rioters aren't the whole of Trumpers.


I never stated they were the entirety of Trump supporters, however it must be said that per 538 45%, a plurality, of Republicans supported the Seige.

One can disapprove of violence and rioting, but also point out that one side has actual grievances that need to be addressed while the other side have merely been duped by a madman or are themselves so ignorant as to believe in conspiracy theories.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:17 pm
by Cannot think of a name
Really going around on this again?

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:17 pm
by Jedi Council
Cannot think of a name wrote:Really going around on this again?

The both sides narrative is strong; it makes people feel edgy and morally superior.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:20 pm
by Cannot think of a name
Jedi Council wrote:
Cannot think of a name wrote:Really going around on this again?

The both sides narrative is strong; it makes people feel edgy and morally superior.

It is an intoxicating narcotic. Maximum feeling of sophistication with minimum actual sophistication or examination.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:24 pm
by Salus Maior
Jedi Council wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
I edited in a clarification on my last post if you want to read it.

I wasn't talking about BLM as a whole, anyway. I was talking about violent rioters, which of course aren't the whole of BLM in the same way that the Capitol Hill rioters aren't the whole of Trumpers.


I never stated they were the entirety of Trump supporters, however it must be said that per 538 45%, a plurality, of Republicans supported the Seige.

One can disapprove of violence and rioting, but also point out that one side has actual grievances that need to be addressed while the other side have merely been duped by a madman or are themselves so ignorant as to believe in conspiracy theories.


Alright, and how many Democrats were supportive of the BLM riots?

Yes, people can do that. But I highly doubt that the people who did this were completely comfortable with their lives; people who are well-off and happy with their lives don't resort to political violence, or violence of any kind really. The Trumpers aren't Trumpers just because they want to be assholes, there are underlying reasons for why violence like this happens.

I can't really say what those reasons are, but people don't put themselves in the way of getting shot just because someone told them to.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:26 pm
by Salus Maior
Cannot think of a name wrote:
Jedi Council wrote:The both sides narrative is strong; it makes people feel edgy and morally superior.

It is an intoxicating narcotic. Maximum feeling of sophistication with minimum actual sophistication or examination.


Kind of like using lots of long, fancy looking words in a sentence ;P

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:30 pm
by Cannot think of a name
Salus Maior wrote:
Cannot think of a name wrote:It is an intoxicating narcotic. Maximum feeling of sophistication with minimum actual sophistication or examination.


Kind of like using lots of long, fancy looking words in a sentence ;P

Dude what is your vocabulary that those are fancy looking words?

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:30 pm
by Picairn
Cannot think of a name wrote:It is an intoxicating narcotic. Maximum feeling of sophistication with minimum actual sophistication or examination.

You mean maximum appearance of sophistication with minimum actual meaning.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:31 pm
by Jedi Council
Salus Maior wrote:
Jedi Council wrote:
I never stated they were the entirety of Trump supporters, however it must be said that per 538 45%, a plurality, of Republicans supported the Seige.

One can disapprove of violence and rioting, but also point out that one side has actual grievances that need to be addressed while the other side have merely been duped by a madman or are themselves so ignorant as to believe in conspiracy theories.


Alright, and how many Democrats were supportive of the BLM riots?

Yes, people can do that. But I highly doubt that the people who did this were completely comfortable with their lives; people who are well-off and happy with their lives don't resort to political violence, or violence of any kind really. The Trumpers aren't Trumpers just because they want to be assholes, there are underlying reasons for why violence like this happens.

I can't really say what those reasons are, but people don't put themselves in the way of getting shot just because someone told them to.

I'm not sure, but it's not my job to find counterpoints for your argument. If you can find polling I would be happy to read it.

As per not having people putting themselves in harms way becaus they were told to; you clearly dont understand either the military, or how strong a cult of personality can be. These people were convinced Trump was being robbed of an election. That's reason enough.

If you cant say what those reasons are, then you are just speculating, not actually offering much in the way of evidence.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:32 pm
by Cannot think of a name
Salus Maior wrote:Alright, and how many Democrats were supportive of the BLM riots?

Loaded and misleading, plus if you think it's a significant number look it the fuck up yourself and present it. This question is meaningless.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:32 pm
by Cannot think of a name
Picairn wrote:
Cannot think of a name wrote:It is an intoxicating narcotic. Maximum feeling of sophistication with minimum actual sophistication or examination.

You mean maximum appearance of sophistication with minimum actual meaning.

Both works.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:33 pm
by Salus Maior
Jedi Council wrote:
If you cant say what those reasons are, then you are just speculating, not actually offering much in the way of evidence.


I sure am.

I hope you realize that this isn't a serious debate for me.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:35 pm
by Cannot think of a name
Salus Maior wrote:
Jedi Council wrote:
If you cant say what those reasons are, then you are just speculating, not actually offering much in the way of evidence.


I sure am.

I hope you realize that this isn't a serious debate for me.

Then quit wasting everyone's time and go play Candy Crush or something instead of contributing to a false and honestly destructive narrative that has a long history of marginalizing civil rights movements.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:36 pm
by Salus Maior
Cannot think of a name wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
I sure am.

I hope you realize that this isn't a serious debate for me.

Then quit wasting everyone's time...


This is NSG, my guy.

Every minute we spend here is wasted, and ultimately pointless.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:37 pm
by Cannot think of a name
Salus Maior wrote:
Cannot think of a name wrote:Then quit wasting everyone's time...


This is NSG, my guy.

Every minute we spend here is wasted, and ultimately pointless.

Not an excuse for making shitty arguments.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:38 pm
by Salus Maior
Cannot think of a name wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
This is NSG, my guy.

Every minute we spend here is wasted, and ultimately pointless.

Not an excuse for making shitty arguments.


Not an excuse to get all mad either.

Nothing we say here actually matters.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:42 pm
by Jedi Council
Salus Maior wrote:
Cannot think of a name wrote:Not an excuse for making shitty arguments.


Not an excuse to get all mad either.

Nothing we say here actually matters.

The excuse of someone with no argument.