NationStates

Des-Bal wrote:

Celritannia wrote:
In history? Sure.
But now? Well, look at all the arrests at capitol hill.

I do know how comparisons work, but in this context, it does not.

Wait are you telling me that when you look at history you see no examples of violence not working but then working later? Did you get to the Beer Hall Putsch and stop reading? I won't spoil the next bit, but you will nazi it coming.

I said in history political violence worked*.
But now it does not, not in democratic nations.

*This depends if you think it worked for the better or for worse. Political violence and take overs can lead to further violence if it leaves a power vacuum, or a reign of terror.
Jacobin France, Soviet Union, Iraq.

Des-Bal wrote:

Senkaku wrote:So what, then? Violence does work to enact political change and has throughout all of human history, are we supposed to somehow remove this timeless and universal truth from people's minds now that they've already been made aware of it?

No, we're supposed to stop offering tacit or open endorsement of violence as a political tool and then being shocked when unilateral escalation doesn't exist.

What would doing this (whatever you think that looks like) accomplish? Is it somehow going to make people forget that violence is sometimes a useful political tool?

Celritannia wrote:
I said in history political violence worked.
But now it does not, not in democratic nations.

Political violence works every day in democratic nations. How else could we think of them as nations?

Something not always working in every circumstance is not the same as something not working at all.

Senkaku wrote:What would doing this (whatever you think that looks like) accomplish? Is it somehow going to make people forget that violence is sometimes a useful political tool?

Killing civilians harms the enemy's extractive and war-making capacities and yet it's a strategy generally eschewed these days. It's not about forgetting it's about declining to make excuses.

Celritannia wrote:

Des-Bal wrote:
Wait are you telling me that when you look at history you see no examples of violence not working but then working later? Did you get to the Beer Hall Putsch and stop reading? I won't spoil the next bit, but you will nazi it coming.

I said in history political violence worked*.
But now it does not, not in democratic nations.

*This depends if you think it worked for the better or for worse. Political violence and take overs can lead to further violence if it leaves a power vacuum.
Jacobin France, Soviet Union, Iraq.

Violence and the silence of so called moderates worked to suppress minorities when it was used in Tulsa in 1921. However, when the result of that kind of violence was put on full display in a way that the self same so called moderates could no longer ignore or equivocate when the mangled face of Emmitt Till was put on display meant that the real and immediate danger and effect of racism could no longer be excused or ignored. Likewise, when people all in their homes during a pandemic watched a police officer take the life of George Floyd for 8 minutes and 46 seconds the violence of the police against black people could no longer be something that could be ignored or equivocated.

It's mindlessly simplistic to focus on any instance of violence within a movement and decide they're all the same, and they all have the same effect. Using statistically small instances of violence to denounce an entire movement has been used to deligitimize civil rights and other rights movements forever, a pattern so common that when a protest succeeds it's remarkable that it does it in spite of violence.

Des-Bal wrote:

Senkaku wrote:What would doing this (whatever you think that looks like) accomplish? Is it somehow going to make people forget that violence is sometimes a useful political tool?

Killing civilians harms the enemy's extractive and war-making capacities and yet it's a strategy generally eschewed these days. It's not about forgetting it's about declining to make excuses.

What if they're not just excuses to most of the people making them, and we've crossed a sort of moral event horizon where enough people actually sincerely believe in certain violent acts being good or useful? And separately, I'm not sure how eschewed the killing of civilians really is today (or at the very least, their immiseration and displacement for strategic or political ends).

Celritannia wrote:
I said in history political violence worked*.
But now it does not, not in democratic nations.

*This depends if you think it worked for the better or for worse. Political violence and take overs can lead to further violence if it leaves a power vacuum, or a reign of terror.
Jacobin France, Soviet Union, Iraq.

Worked on Mohammed Morsi.

My American Friend who attended the Pro Trump Stop The Election Steal Rally in Washington DC on Wednesday Jan 6 2021, and did not participate in the storming of the Capitol Building, is an Air Force Combat Veteran of The USA. Proud Pro Republican Trump Supporter, Pro USA, USA, USA, American Patriot Citizen of The USA.

I had dinner with him and his wife at a restaurant on Sunday, where they told us in details of what happened. We were 10 Persons this time.

He always leads on signing the National Anthem of The USA. We also do the Pledge of Allegiance to The USA.

GMS.

Galloism wrote:

Celritannia wrote:
This extreme centrist view point is dangerous.

It's really not an "extreme centrist view point". It's left wing viewpoint encouraging reflection.

This is a lie that has been eating at me that I was going to let go but it's so egregious and so self congratulatory that I apparently cannot let it go.

The narrative here that he wants to present is that this comes as part of his own self relflection of excusing left wing violence over the course of the summer.

But should you peruse the the COVID thread (just pick up any point in the conversation from that period) from the time, this is actually just part of a long pattern of him excusing right wing terror and intimidation with no shortage of critiques for the George Floyd protests.

If you want a pattern of encouragement, of excuse making and emboldening, there is no straighter line than making excuses for armed right wing demonstrators intimidating government officials in the summer and those same individuals storming the Capitol building. Somehow in the mirror of self reflection that became something else because it makes a good story. But it's just that. It's just a story.

Albrenia wrote:

Geneviev wrote:God help us all if he does. I want the best for Trump, just not in the White House after January 20.

If people elect Trump again knowing now exactly what sort of President he is, I'm sad to say my sympathy for the American public will be... much reduced.

Congratulations, you have elected a president who is basically gonna be a puppet leader run by psychos like Pelosi and Harris. Basic biology will be abolished, medicare-for-all will be established, our income tax will skyrocket, and speech will be suppressed.
I'll be damned if Biden actually has a will.

The NCNSA wrote:

Albrenia wrote:
If people elect Trump again knowing now exactly what sort of President he is, I'm sad to say my sympathy for the American public will be... much reduced.

Congratulations, you have elected a president who is basically gonna be a puppet leader run by psychos like Pelosi and Harris. Basic biology will be abolished, medicare-for-all will be established, our income tax will skyrocket, and speech will be suppressed.
I'll be damned if Biden actually has a will.

Why do right wingers make Harris or Pelosi sound so cooler than they actually are ;_;

Nakena wrote:The absolute state of the US, ca 2021:

Department of Defense says they will review troops deployed to Biden inauguration to ensure they don’t have sympathies to domestic terrorists — meaning the US govt is now trying to prevent a military coup.

https://twitter.com/hugolowell/status/1 ... 7886521346

Good to know that the US DoD are now worried about one of these. Government by assassination when?

The NCNSA wrote:

Albrenia wrote:
If people elect Trump again knowing now exactly what sort of President he is, I'm sad to say my sympathy for the American public will be... much reduced.

Congratulations, you have elected a president who is basically gonna be a puppet leader run by psychos like Pelosi and Harris. Basic biology will be abolished, medicare-for-all will be established, our income tax will skyrocket, and speech will be suppressed.
I'll be damned if Biden actually has a will.

What's wrong with Medicare-for-all?

Kowani wrote:

The NCNSA wrote:Congratulations, you have elected a president who is basically gonna be a puppet leader run by psychos like Pelosi and Harris. Basic biology will be abolished, medicare-for-all will be established, our income tax will skyrocket, and speech will be suppressed.
I'll be damned if Biden actually has a will.

Why do right wingers make Harris or Pelosi sound so cooler than they actually are ;_;

Campaign donations.

Kowani wrote:

The NCNSA wrote:Congratulations, you have elected a president who is basically gonna be a puppet leader run by psychos like Pelosi and Harris. Basic biology will be abolished, medicare-for-all will be established, our income tax will skyrocket, and speech will be suppressed.
I'll be damned if Biden actually has a will.

Why do right wingers make Harris or Pelosi sound so cooler than they actually are ;_;

Pelosi is very cool, I think.

The NCNSA wrote:

Albrenia wrote:
If people elect Trump again knowing now exactly what sort of President he is, I'm sad to say my sympathy for the American public will be... much reduced.

Congratulations, you have elected a president who is basically gonna be a puppet leader run by psychos like Pelosi and Harris. Basic biology will be abolished, medicare-for-all will be established, our income tax will skyrocket, and speech will be suppressed.
I'll be damned if Biden actually has a will.

Thats the fucking pot calling the kettle black if I ever saw it. You supported a president who used armed violence against protesters in Portland and in Lafayette Square and a man who called for an insurrection against the US government. Dont tell me who is fighting for freedom and who isn't. Under Donald Trump free speech has taken a beating.

Btw Medicare for all isnt a bad thing, why you say that like that negative? And once again, psycho? Really? You supported a guy who literally TRIED TO GET HIS OWN VICE PRESIDENT KILLED. Don't tell anyone who is or isn't psycho. Your guy lost fair and square. Many of the people on your side won't grow the hell up and accept it instead of having a terroristic fit. Dont waste your breath.

Cannot think of a name wrote:

Kowani wrote:Why do right wingers make Harris or Pelosi sound so cooler than they actually are ;_;

Campaign donations.

Damn you, fearmongering

Geneviev wrote:

Kowani wrote:Why do right wingers make Harris or Pelosi sound so cooler than they actually are ;_;

Pelosi is very cool, I think.

How-

Celritannia wrote:

The NCNSA wrote:Congratulations, you have elected a president who is basically gonna be a puppet leader run by psychos like Pelosi and Harris. Basic biology will be abolished, medicare-for-all will be established, our income tax will skyrocket, and speech will be suppressed.
I'll be damned if Biden actually has a will.

What's wrong with Medicare-for-all?

Clearly he must be part of the pro-death movement. Alot of people die in a society without Medicare for all, or go into debt over Healthcare costs.

Kowani wrote:

Geneviev wrote:Pelosi is very cool, I think.

How-

She stands up to Trump. And, she's just very cool.

Celritannia wrote:

Adamede wrote:Violence very clearly works. Just open a history book.

And I don’t think you know how comparisons actually work.

In history? Sure.
But now? Well, look at all the arrests at capitol hill.

You do realize that history isn’t just words in a dusty old book do you?
The person with the biggest gun wins.

I do know how comparisons work, but in this context, it does not.

Based on the other half of your comment I’m thinking you don’t actually know how much of anything actually works.

Geneviev wrote:

Kowani wrote:
How-

She stands up to Trump. And, she's just very cool.

I see
Not sure how accurate all of it is…

Geneviev wrote:

Kowani wrote:
How-

She stands up to Trump. And, she's just very cool.

Shes a centrist and a neoliberal. I dont give a shit that she has a personal feud with Trump.

The NCNSA wrote:

Albrenia wrote:
If people elect Trump again knowing now exactly what sort of President he is, I'm sad to say my sympathy for the American public will be... much reduced.

Congratulations, you have elected a president who is basically gonna be a puppet leader run by psychos like Pelosi and Harris. Basic biology will be abolished, medicare-for-all will be established,

swaggie

our income tax will skyrocket,

who are you including in "our"

and speech will be suppressed.

lol if you say so

I'll be damned if Biden actually has a will.

as old as he is he surely does?

Geneviev wrote:

Kowani wrote:
How-

She stands up to Trump. And, she's just very cool.

she really isnt tbqfh

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:

Nakena wrote:The absolute state of the US, ca 2021:


https://twitter.com/hugolowell/status/1 ... 7886521346

Good to know that the US DoD are now worried about one of these. Government by assassination when?

So it seems.

Also. glory to the Kodoha faction!