MAGAThread XX: A Journal of the Plague Year

[Celritannia]

Don't pull that one here. Secession requires legal documents to be approved.
Sedition does not. It's an act.

Secession requires legal documents before a secession can exist? Source?

Because dictionary.com suggests it can be either an act or a formal declaration:

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/secession

And each of the US states that seceded did so with a legal document from their state legislatures.
Now, CHAZ did not have those, did it?

[Galloism]

Secession requires legal documents before a secession can exist? Source?

Because dictionary.com suggests it can be either an act or a formal declaration:

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/secession

And each of the US states that seceded did so with a legal document from their state legislatures.

That's not the only secession in all of history you know.

[Spirit of Hope]

Bidon/Bison what's the difference? Edit: I'm an idiot who can't even blame autocorrect.

I hardly think CHAZ/CHOP led us to the current situation. If it hadn't happened I don't think Trump would have accepted the election results, not cried fraud, and not called on his supporters to disrupt the certification of the electoral college vote.

In many ways I don't think Trump was planning/expecting the crowd to breach the Capital, he just wanted an angry crowd to put pressure on the procedure because he doesn't like what is happening.

[Page]

Don't pull that one here. Secession requires legal documents to be approved.
Sedition does not. It's an act.

Secession requires legal documents before a secession can exist? Source?

Because dictionary.com suggests it can be either an act or a formal declaration:

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/secession

It's not a matter of legal documents, it's a matter of the reality on the ground. No one in CHAZ expected it to function as a sovereign country and neither did the US government. CHAZ was a symbolic occupation.

[Celritannia]

And each of the US states that seceded did so with a legal document from their state legislatures.

That's not the only secession in all of history you know.

Yes, but did CHAZ have any legality to declare itself to secede? Was it it's own country? Did it have a legislature?

[Vassenor]

So which members of the United States Federal Government did the people behind CHAZ attempt to kidnap and execute?

[Page]

Bison/Bison what's the difference?

I hardly think CHAZ/CHOP led us to the current situation. If it hadn't happened I don't think Trump would have accepted the election results, not cried fraud, and not called on his supporters to disrupt the certification of the electoral college vote.

In many ways I don't think Trump was planning/expecting the crowd to breach the Capital, he just wanted an angry crowd to put pressure on the procedure because he doesn't like what is happening.

What Trump was doing was actually much worse than what the crowd did. It's clear that those people would have been expelled from the building sooner or later, they could vandalize and steal all they wanted but they can't actually overthrow democracy. But Trump was asking Pence and Congressional Republicans to illegally seize power on his behalf.

[Galloism]

That's not the only secession in all of history you know.

Yes, but did CHAZ have any legality to declare itself to secede? Was it it's own country? Did it have a legislature?

They had a general assembly according to Wiki, which was used to make legal (to the extent that term applies) decisions within the zone.

And like I said, they attempted to prevent the government from acting within its own borders, declared themselves an autonomous zone, setup military-type checkpoints at the border, and erected signage indicating you were leaving the country.

[Greater Miami Shores]

You’re giving CHAZ way too much credit than they deserve here since it was literally a glorified protest zone that police made the conscious decision to not immediately disperse, likely because doing so would’ve elicited a more deadly and violent situation than just waiting them out for a month. I’m not sure why you’ve chosen the “CHAZ were a bunch of rebels who tried to secede!” route you’ve taken here.

Being that desperate for a whataboutism to feed the BUT BOTH SIDES ARE EQUALLY BAD HERE narrative?

oh so you put down the right wingers feelings and views and you defend the leftist feelings and views. Interesting.

GMS.

[Senkaku]

If I see one more bad take about CHAZ I’m going to have a stroke

[Esheaun Stroakuss]

Being that desperate for a whataboutism to feed the BUT BOTH SIDES ARE EQUALLY BAD HERE narrative?

oh so you put down the right wingers feelings and views and you defend the leftist feelings and views. Interesting.

GMS.

Because the right wingers in this scenario, the ones especially who justify the attempted coup, are wrong.

[Page]

That's not the only secession in all of history you know.

Yes, but did CHAZ have any legality to declare itself to secede? Was it it's own country? Did it have a legislature?

Arguing about the legality of secession is inherently absurd whether it's the Confederacy or Catalonia or Crimea or CHAZ, the country they're part of will always say it's illegal and the secessionists will always say we are our own country now so we make our own laws.

Ultimately no secession is legal or illegal. The question is whether they are successful or unsuccessful. A law is only as meaningful as it is enforced.

[Greater Miami Shores]

Only after the police increased their tactics.
So no.

Because they felt the US would continue to ignore their problems, which is why they turned to riots.
Neither was it supposed to be serious.

I meant to put semi-automatic weapons. But either way, it is disturbing and horrific that they brought weapons and planted bombs.

I think the issue with many people here is that they find one or the other side more agreeable so they don’t see CHAZ and the storming as equivalent

We strongly agree.

GMS.

[Valrifell]

If I see one more bad take about CHAZ I’m going to have a stroke

Medics on standby.

[Celritannia]

Yes, but did CHAZ have any legality to declare itself to secede? Was it it's own country? Did it have a legislature?

They had a general assembly according to Wiki, which was used to make legal (to the extent that term applies) decisions within the zone.

And like I said, they attempted to prevent the government from acting within its own borders, declared themselves an autonomous zone, setup military-type checkpoints at the border, and erected signage indicating you were leaving the country.

And that is some how similar to people actually attempting to stop a legal democratic election by storming the capitol building?

[Celritannia]

Yes, but did CHAZ have any legality to declare itself to secede? Was it it's own country? Did it have a legislature?

Arguing about the legality of secession is inherently absurd whether it's the Confederacy or Catalonia or Crimea or CHAZ, the country they're part of will always say it's illegal and the secessionists will always say we are our own country now so we make our own laws.

Ultimately no secession is legal or illegal. The question is whether they are successful or unsuccessful. A law is only as meaningful as it is enforced.

Fair enough, I retract my statement.

[Greater Miami Shores]

If I see one more bad take about CHAZ I’m going to have a stroke

If I see one more bad post about the peaceful Trump supporters protesting the massive Democrat vote fraud, I am going to have a lol attack, so big it will be bad for my health.

For the record I condemn the right wingers who stormed the Capitol Building.

GMS.

[Celritannia]

If I see one more bad take about CHAZ I’m going to have a stroke

If I see one more bad post about the peaceful Trump supporters protesting the massive Democrat vote fraud, I am going to have a lol attack, so big it will be bad for my health.

For the record I condemn the right wingers who stormed the Capitol Building.

GMS.

Yeah, because breaking into the Capitol building is peaceful

[Esheaun Stroakuss]

For the record I condemn the right wingers who stormed the Capitol Building.

At least that's something.

[Galloism]

They had a general assembly according to Wiki, which was used to make legal (to the extent that term applies) decisions within the zone.

And like I said, they attempted to prevent the government from acting within its own borders, declared themselves an autonomous zone, setup military-type checkpoints at the border, and erected signage indicating you were leaving the country.

And that is some how similar to people actually attempting to stop a legal democratic election by storming the capitol building?

Yes. It's definitely sedition in both cases at a minimum.

The latter however is sedition followed by an attempted coup, while the former is sedition with an extremely poor attempt at secession.

[Greater Miami Shores]

If I see one more bad post about the peaceful Trump supporters protesting the massive Democrat vote fraud, I am going to have a lol attack, so big it will be bad for my health.

For the record I condemn the right wingers who stormed the Capitol Building.

GMS.

Yeah, because breaking into the Capitol building is peaceful

I know my English not very good, as many here keep telling me, but this is not what I said, lol.

GMS.

[Galloism]

If I see one more bad take about CHAZ I’m going to have a stroke

If I see one more bad post about the peaceful Trump supporters protesting the massive Democrat vote fraud, I am going to have a lol attack, so big it will be bad for my health.

For the record I condemn the right wingers who stormed the Capitol Building.

GMS.

Breaking into the capitol isn't peaceful. Legislators having to literally break legs off of chairs to use them as clubs in defense of the house of representatives is not peaceful.

[Celritannia]

And that is some how similar to people actually attempting to stop a legal democratic election by storming the capitol building?

Yes. It's definitely sedition in both cases at a minimum.

The latter however is sedition followed by an attempted coup, while the former is sedition with an extremely poor attempt at secession.

No.
CHAZ is not sedition.

The Trump supporters were because they were actually attempting to deny the legal democratic vote.

[Celritannia]

Yeah, because breaking into the Capitol building is peaceful

I know my English not very good, as many here keep telling me, but this is not what I said, lol.

GMS.

And all the Trump supporters at the Capitol Building supported the breaking into it.

[Galloism]

Yes. It's definitely sedition in both cases at a minimum.

The latter however is sedition followed by an attempted coup, while the former is sedition with an extremely poor attempt at secession.

No.
CHAZ is not sedition.

The Trump supporters were because they were actually attempting to deny the legal democratic vote.

That's not what sedition means.

To wit:

If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both.

Given CHAZ explicitly was using force to prevent, hinder, or delay execution of laws of the United States (and also the state of Washington, but that doesn't matter overmuch) and prevent agents from enforcing the law in their jurisdiction. They also seized property of the United States and declared it was no longer part of the United States.

So yes, they were both engaged in sedition. That's not ok.