NationStates

Tarsonis wrote:

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
I have said why, quite comprehensively. Unearned privilege is wrong.

You want to make an argument why NOT? Not all countries allow dual citizenship with their own. Are they wrong?

So if you oppose unearned privilege, shouldn't you oppose birthright citizenship entirely.

"Privilege" clearly means "privilege relative to another" and citizenship IS a privilege (not excluding that it might also be a right). If you want to interpret that as "Americans should not have privileges Mexicans do not have" then I can't stop you, just be aware you're pursuing open-borders globalism.

There is literally no way other than open borders or no country having privileges of citizenship, in which people of different nationality could have equal privilege from birth. And even then, they'd need to physically move in many cases.

I'm talking about no unearned privilege from birth, relative to any other citizen of the same country. Specifically, no enduring nationality at birth besides that of the country the person is born in.

It really should not have been necessary to make all these explanations. You knew exactly what I mean, you're just playing dumb.

Service guarantees citizenship and all that?

"Service guarantees citizenship" is either fascist, or a parody of fascism, and we can see in many Middle Eastern countries that it is honored by governments no more than "arbeit macht frei"

Cordel One wrote:More than 130 Secret Service officers are said to be infected with coronavirus or quarantining in wake of Trump’s campaign travel

Trump's abuse of the USSS is one of the reasons I'm not too concerned about him trying to overstay his welcome in the White House. You don't get to be Caesar by pissing on the Praetorian Guard.

Eahland wrote:

Cordel One wrote:More than 130 Secret Service officers are said to be infected with coronavirus or quarantining in wake of Trump’s campaign travel

Trump's abuse of the USSS is one of the reasons I'm not too concerned about him trying to overstay his welcome in the White House. You don't get to be Caesar by pissing on the Praetorian Guard.

I hate US-Roman Empire analogies. The Praetorians were an army unit. The Secret Service was, until 2003, a law enforcement branch of the Treasury Department. The USSS was created in 1865 to deal with rampant counterfeiting (about a third of all US currency in circulation was counterfeit at that time) and only began to provide protection to US presidents after McKinley was killed in 1901. The Secret Service has never attempted to impose a president on the nation, unlike the Praetorian Guard, which developed that into an art.

https://nypost.com/2020/11/13/diplomat- ... -in-syria/

So here's something interesting.US officials subverted the presidents foreign policy by lying to him about what they were doing.
Sort I f makes you wonder how common such lies were

Farnhamia wrote:

Eahland wrote:Trump's abuse of the USSS is one of the reasons I'm not too concerned about him trying to overstay his welcome in the White House. You don't get to be Caesar by pissing on the Praetorian Guard.

I hate US-Roman Empire analogies. The Praetorians were an army unit. The Secret Service was, until 2003, a law enforcement branch of the Treasury Department. The USSS was created in 1865 to deal with rampant counterfeiting (about a third of all US currency in circulation was counterfeit at that time) and only began to provide protection to US presidents after McKinley was killed in 1901. The Secret Service has never attempted to impose a president on the nation, unlike the Praetorian Guard, which developed that into an art.

Similarly the US Senate has never repeatedly stabbed a sitting ruler in the back.

Just the people.

Aclion wrote:https://nypost.com/2020/11/13/diplomat-says-officials-misled-trump-on-troop-count-in-syria/

So here's something interesting.US officials subverted the presidents foreign policy by lying to him about what they were doing.
Sort I f makes you wonder how common such lies were

It's more like they understated the number of troops so he wouldn't freak out and remove most of them. Still, it is a substantive lie.

It was one of the memorable moments of Trump's Presidency, and I think I misread it. I thought he was boasting that troops were only in Syria "to protect the oil wells" but in retrospect, I think he was disgusted that the military talked him into that. Didn't he say something about "we want their oil" when really the objective was to deny the oil to ISIS ... and after all he was being sarcastic!

Aclion wrote:https://nypost.com/2020/11/13/diplomat-says-officials-misled-trump-on-troop-count-in-syria/

So here's something interesting.US officials subverted the presidents foreign policy by lying to him about what they were doing.
Sort I f makes you wonder how common such lies were

Wouldn't surprise me if a lot of people lied to Trump in the belief that him knowing the truth would be dangerous in one way or another. It probably should be illegal to mislead the President as a government official though.

Albrenia wrote:

Aclion wrote:https://nypost.com/2020/11/13/diplomat-says-officials-misled-trump-on-troop-count-in-syria/

So here's something interesting.US officials subverted the presidents foreign policy by lying to him about what they were doing.
Sort I f makes you wonder how common such lies were

Wouldn't surprise me if a lot of people lied to Trump in the belief that him knowing the truth would be dangerous in one way or another. It probably should be illegal to mislead the President as a government official though.

On the contrary, government officials should be sworn to uphold the Constitution and the Laws of Congress. Then they could be prosecuted if they obeyed an unconstitutional or illegal order from the President.

Since holding the President responsible is apparently impossible ...

So I heard that the Million MAGA March is happening tomorrow or sometime soon. I wonder how many will show up. I suspect a lot.

Not that it changes the election result.

Albrenia wrote:So I heard that the Million MAGA March is happening tomorrow or sometime soon. I wonder how many will show up. I suspect a lot.

Not that it changes the election result.

A million of course. Anyone who tells you otherwise is Fake News.

Aclion wrote:https://nypost.com/2020/11/13/diplomat-says-officials-misled-trump-on-troop-count-in-syria/

So here's something interesting.US officials subverted the presidents foreign policy by lying to him about what they were doing.
Sort I f makes you wonder how common such lies were

Yeah, this is actually very bad

Aclion wrote:https://nypost.com/2020/11/13/diplomat-says-officials-misled-trump-on-troop-count-in-syria/

So here's something interesting.US officials subverted the presidents foreign policy by lying to him about what they were doing.
Sort I f makes you wonder how common such lies were

Not surprised actually. When dealing with someone so inept at the game; lies are told. Trump was ready to abandon the area after the fighting with ISIS was over. The problem? The organization was not obliterated. ISIS is rebuilding. Especially after Trump betrayed the Kurds and the Turks invaded. They are even using covid in this endeavor......


https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your ... rom-syria/

https://www.businessinsider.com/trumps- ... ys-2019-11

https://www.mei.edu/publications/us-pol ... -and-syria

https://apnews.com/article/ap-top-news- ... cc7f35b56b

https://www.voanews.com/middle-east/reb ... syria-iraq

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/i ... cna1215941

Aclion wrote:https://nypost.com/2020/11/13/diplomat-says-officials-misled-trump-on-troop-count-in-syria/

So here's something interesting.US officials subverted the presidents foreign policy by lying to him about what they were doing.
Sort I f makes you wonder how common such lies were

Very common. This type of story has been reported on several times in the past. Trump's people didn't want to give him bad news, or make him upset, because they could be yelled at or fired, so they've lied to him routinely throughout his presidency.

Remember this story? Ignoring Trump’s Orders, Hoping He’ll Forget - Slow-walking or flat-out disobeying Trump’s fleeting obsessions has become common practice across various sectors of government.

Remember how Gary Cohn stole documents off Trump's desk to keep the US from leaving major trade deals? Remember how Don McGahn twice ignored direct orders to have Mueller fired?

The Trump administration is deeply dysfunctional, and it is important to remember that it's not just Trump, but also the low caliber people he's surrounded himself with.

Also, remember that the intelligence briefs Trump was getting was reduced to bullet points and pictures, because Trump couldn't maintain focus throughout detailed briefings with too much text. It's easy to omit important elements in those kinds of briefings.

Farnhamia wrote:

Eahland wrote:Trump's abuse of the USSS is one of the reasons I'm not too concerned about him trying to overstay his welcome in the White House. You don't get to be Caesar by pissing on the Praetorian Guard.

I hate US-Roman Empire analogies. The Praetorians were an army unit. The Secret Service was, until 2003, a law enforcement branch of the Treasury Department. The USSS was created in 1865 to deal with rampant counterfeiting (about a third of all US currency in circulation was counterfeit at that time) and only began to provide protection to US presidents after McKinley was killed in 1901. The Secret Service has never attempted to impose a president on the nation, unlike the Praetorian Guard, which developed that into an art.

That's the great thing about Rome, it was around for so long and consequently had so many things happen before collapsing that one can pick out any part of modern politics and match it to something kind of similar that happened in Rome and say "See? This thing is causing the collapse of society, just like in Rome".

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:

Albrenia wrote:
Wouldn't surprise me if a lot of people lied to Trump in the belief that him knowing the truth would be dangerous in one way or another. It probably should be illegal to mislead the President as a government official though.

On the contrary, government officials should be sworn to uphold the Constitution and the Laws of Congress. Then they could be prosecuted if they obeyed an unconstitutional or illegal order from the President.

Since holding the President responsible is apparently impossible ...

The constitution gives the president the position of commander in chief, subverting that role is not upholding the constitution, its undermining our republic

Aclion wrote:

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
On the contrary, government officials should be sworn to uphold the Constitution and the Laws of Congress. Then they could be prosecuted if they obeyed an unconstitutional or illegal order from the President.

Since holding the President responsible is apparently impossible ...

The constitution gives the president the position of commander in chief, subverting that role is not upholding the constitution, its undermining our republic

You're right about this.

But a question: Since it's been widely reported that this is happening, and Trump hasn't done anything to rectify the situation... At what point does it become an accepted practice and policy by the Trump administration?

Gravlen wrote:

Aclion wrote:The constitution gives the president the position of commander in chief, subverting that role is not upholding the constitution, its undermining our republic

You're right about this.

But a question: Since it's been widely reported that this is happening, and Trump hasn't done anything to rectify the situation... At what point does it become an accepted practice and policy by the Trump administration?

It seems to me that the American military is far too large an organisation for one person to possibly be briefed on everything they do. So it follows that every American president must establish policies around what they want to be briefed on and what they are willing to leave to their subordinates. Apparently Donald Trump's policy is to be briefed as little as possible.

Gravlen wrote:

Aclion wrote:The constitution gives the president the position of commander in chief, subverting that role is not upholding the constitution, its undermining our republic

You're right about this.

But a question: Since it's been widely reported that this is happening, and Trump hasn't done anything to rectify the situation... At what point does it become an accepted practice and policy by the Trump administration?

Hasn't he? He's been purging people left and righregardless 8m reminded here of this scene https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Qzg11OSLLGQ

Aclion wrote:

Gravlen wrote:You're right about this.

But a question: Since it's been widely reported that this is happening, and Trump hasn't done anything to rectify the situation... At what point does it become an accepted practice and policy by the Trump administration?

Hasn't he? He's been purging people left and righregardless 8m reminded here of this scene https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Qzg11OSLLGQ

He's purging people now, in the dying hours of his administration. He didn't do anything about it last year when this was reported.

Ifreann wrote:

Gravlen wrote:You're right about this.

But a question: Since it's been widely reported that this is happening, and Trump hasn't done anything to rectify the situation... At what point does it become an accepted practice and policy by the Trump administration?

It seems to me that the American military is far too large an organisation for one person to possibly be briefed on everything they do. So it follows that every American president must establish policies around what they want to be briefed on and what they are willing to leave to their subordinates. Apparently Donald Trump's policy is to be briefed as little as possible.

Uh in this case what they weren't briefing him on was the fact that they were moving troops around Syria inorder to make it look like they have followed his order to withdraw when really they had not.

Farnhamia wrote:

Eahland wrote:Trump's abuse of the USSS is one of the reasons I'm not too concerned about him trying to overstay his welcome in the White House. You don't get to be Caesar by pissing on the Praetorian Guard.

I hate US-Roman Empire analogies. The Praetorians were an army unit. The Secret Service was, until 2003, a law enforcement branch of the Treasury Department. The USSS was created in 1865 to deal with rampant counterfeiting (about a third of all US currency in circulation was counterfeit at that time) and only began to provide protection to US presidents after McKinley was killed in 1901. The Secret Service has never attempted to impose a president on the nation, unlike the Praetorian Guard, which developed that into an art.

I'm getting the feeling you were born by Caesarean.

Aclion wrote:

Ifreann wrote:It seems to me that the American military is far too large an organisation for one person to possibly be briefed on everything they do. So it follows that every American president must establish policies around what they want to be briefed on and what they are willing to leave to their subordinates. Apparently Donald Trump's policy is to be briefed as little as possible.

Uh in this case what they weren't briefing him on was the fact that they were moving troops around Syria inorder to make it look like they have followed his order to withdraw when really they had not.

And I'm sure he'd made it clear that appearance is all he was interested in.

Jerzylvania wrote:

Farnhamia wrote:I hate US-Roman Empire analogies. The Praetorians were an army unit. The Secret Service was, until 2003, a law enforcement branch of the Treasury Department. The USSS was created in 1865 to deal with rampant counterfeiting (about a third of all US currency in circulation was counterfeit at that time) and only began to provide protection to US presidents after McKinley was killed in 1901. The Secret Service has never attempted to impose a president on the nation, unlike the Praetorian Guard, which developed that into an art.

I'm getting the feeling you were born by Caesarean.

You leave us tumour babies alone.

Gravlen wrote:

Aclion wrote:https://nypost.com/2020/11/13/diplomat-says-officials-misled-trump-on-troop-count-in-syria/

So here's something interesting.US officials subverted the presidents foreign policy by lying to him about what they were doing.
Sort I f makes you wonder how common such lies were

Very common. This type of story has been reported on several times in the past. Trump's people didn't want to give him bad news, or make him upset, because they could be yelled at or fired, so they've lied to him routinely throughout his presidency.

Remember this story? Ignoring Trump’s Orders, Hoping He’ll Forget - Slow-walking or flat-out disobeying Trump’s fleeting obsessions has become common practice across various sectors of government.

Remember how Gary Cohn stole documents off Trump's desk to keep the US from leaving major trade deals? Remember how Don McGahn twice ignored direct orders to have Mueller fired?

The Trump administration is deeply dysfunctional, and it is important to remember that it's not just Trump, but also the low caliber people he's surrounded himself with.

Also, remember that the intelligence briefs Trump was getting was reduced to bullet points and pictures, because Trump couldn't maintain focus throughout detailed briefings with too much text. It's easy to omit important elements in those kinds of briefings.

Yeah, Trump is either incompetent at or just plain uninterested in his job.

You all ready for the million Covid super spreader?