MAGAThread XX: A Journal of the Plague Year

[Tarsonis]

That's not accurate. Jus soli was only introduced via the 14th amendment after the Civil War. And most of the Founding Fathers were born and raised in the colonies. The only exception to that, that comes to mind off the top of my head was Hamilton, and the fact that he was an immigrant was counted against him not for him.



Swing and a miss kat.

Except that originally one only had to reside in the US for 2 years and be white to gain citizenship. US rules for citizenship has always reflected the fact that the US is a country of immigrants.

Naturalized citizenship vs natural born citizen. two different things.

I guess thats strike two

[Nobel Hobos 2]

Ideally, yes. Dual German/US citizenship. You would have to choose within a time limit though (which could be a bit longer for a child) since people shouldn't hold dual or multiple citizenships indefinitely. It gives them options which single citizenship holders do not have, and if that is by birth it is an unearned privilege.

you haven't said why

I have said why, quite comprehensively. Unearned privilege is wrong.

You want to make an argument why NOT? Not all countries allow dual citizenship with their own. Are they wrong?

[New haven america]

you haven't said why

1. I have said why, quite comprehensively. Unearned privilege is wrong.

You want to make an argument why NOT? 2. Not all countries allow dual citizenship with their own. Are they wrong?

Then why should anyone born in a developed country get to be citizens in them? By your logic wouldn't it make more sense to cast them out from the nation until they earn their place in it.
2. Yes.

[Page]

I see no reason why someone shouldn't be able to have 5 or 6 citizenships if they want. The vast majority of people are just living regular lives that don't have much impact on the world. I don't think America really lost anything when I moved to Germany except what, some taxes from my pathetic wages at my call center job? "Loyalty" to one's country isn't really a significant factor for most people either. When America and Germany are spying on each other I don't have anything to do with it.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

1. I have said why, quite comprehensively. Unearned privilege is wrong.

You want to make an argument why NOT? 2. Not all countries allow dual citizenship with their own. Are they wrong?

Then why should anyone born in a developed country get to be citizens in them?

Sure, they shouldn't. But citizenship is how we deem who is and who isn't entitled to live in a country. And neither you nor I are in a position to wish countries out of existence. The injustice of national privilege is the inescapable default ... differing between citizens of different countries ...

But it does not need to differ between citizens of the same country. My point.

By your logic wouldn't it make sense to cast them out from the nation until they earn their place in it?
2. Yes.

No, "having to earn a place" is the burden of anyone wanting to leave the country of their birth. Unless they can find a country which will take them no questions asked.

Another example. Barry and Roger are both 30 years old and have Australian citizenship. Both have criminal records, having spent their 20s in jail. Barry can apply for US citizenship, but he probably won't even get a work permit. Roger can fly to America and live there because he has birth citizenship. As an Australian citizen (by birth) myself, I find that intolerably unequal.

I don't much appreciate your picking away at my opinion and requiring more and more explanation. You've had a couple of hours now, why don't you come up with a counter-argument? Why should citizens of your country be allowed some other citizenship only because of who their parents were? Does that not seem a privilege of birth akin to aristocracy?

[Nakena]

I see no reason why someone shouldn't be able to have 5 or 6 citizenships if they want. The vast majority of people are just living regular lives that don't have much impact on the world. I don't think America really lost anything when I moved to Germany except what, some taxes from my pathetic wages at my call center job? "Loyalty" to one's country isn't really a significant factor for most people either. When America and Germany are spying on each other I don't have anything to do with it.

Thats pretty much how it goes in the EU. Some people collect passports like Pokemon Cards and even can vote in different elections too and grab benefits.

It's a bit like multiaccounting.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

I see no reason why someone shouldn't be able to have 5 or 6 citizenships if they want. The vast majority of people are just living regular lives that don't have much impact on the world. I don't think America really lost anything when I moved to Germany except what, some taxes from my pathetic wages at my call center job? "Loyalty" to one's country isn't really a significant factor for most people either. When America and Germany are spying on each other I don't have anything to do with it.

Thats pretty much how it goes in the EU. Some people collect passports like Pokemon Cards and even can vote in different elections too and grab benefits.

It's a bit like multiaccounting.

You have no objection to a person voting in more than one country's elections because ... one-person-one-vote doesn't apply across national boundaries?

Well I have a problem with it. In fact, I'd like to thank you for pointing out another reason countries should only allow one citizenship (except for a transitional overlap to accommodate migrants). An international overclass of people not constrained to any one country's law, and moreover able to vote in each other's countries so that collectively they have ... 5 or 6 you said ... votes each, is a terrible idea. It's voter fraud by a citizenship loophole and it should be banned.

[Nakena]

You have no objection to a person voting in more than one country's elections because ... one-person-one-vote doesn't apply across national boundaries?

I have, oh big wonder, no objection to it. Call me a cosmopolite.

Well I have a problem with it. In fact, I'd like to thank you for pointing out another reason countries should only allow one citizenship (except for a transitional overlap to accommodate migrants). An international overclass of people not constrained to any one country's law, and moreover able to vote in each other's countries so that collectively they have ... 5 or 6 you said ... votes each, is a terrible idea. It's voter fraud by a citizenship loophole and it should be banned.

That is a nationalist and anti-globalist statement. For the record.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

I see no reason why someone shouldn't be able to have 5 or 6 citizenships if they want. The vast majority of people are just living regular lives that don't have much impact on the world. I don't think America really lost anything when I moved to Germany except what, some taxes from my pathetic wages at my call center job? "Loyalty" to one's country isn't really a significant factor for most people either. When America and Germany are spying on each other I don't have anything to do with it.

The beneficiaries of privilege often deny that it's a privilege at all. Have you ever had to apply for (and been granted) a new citizenship?

[Nobel Hobos 2]

You have no objection to a person voting in more than one country's elections because ... one-person-one-vote doesn't apply across national boundaries?

I have, oh big wonder, no objection to it. Call me a cosmopolite.

I just remembered. You don't believe in one-person-one-vote at all, right?

Well I have a problem with it. In fact, I'd like to thank you for pointing out another reason countries should only allow one citizenship (except for a transitional overlap to accommodate migrants). An international overclass of people not constrained to any one country's law, and moreover able to vote in each other's countries so that collectively they have ... 5 or 6 you said ... votes each, is a terrible idea. It's voter fraud by a citizenship loophole and it should be banned.

That is a nationalist and anti-globalist statement. For the record.

It's the logical application of equal rights for all citizens, from birth, to a pre-existing global nationalist system ... which perhaps does not apply so much in Europe, but hey, I'm not European.

Equal rights for all citizens within a nation, does not mean anti-globalist. People can (and probably will) live out their whole lives impeded by national borders, and within that constraint I'd like to see them have equal rights from birth. In each of their countries.

Are you an "open borders" globalist?? I thought you had a more practical bent.

[Nakena]

I just remembered. You don't believe in one-person-one-vote at all, right?

>implying to believe in the current form of representative democracy

It's the logical application of equal rights for all citizens, from birth, to a pre-existing global nationalist system ... which perhaps does not apply so much in Europe, but hey, I'm not European.

Equal rights for all citizens within a nation, does not mean anti-globalist. People can (and probably will) live out their whole lives impeded by national borders, and within that constraint I'd like to see them have equal rights from birth. In each of their countries.

Are you an "open borders" globalist?? I thought you had a more practical bent.

No I am not. But i thought you were one. If you arent then maybe you should update our political credentials.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

I just remembered. You don't believe in one-person-one-vote at all, right?

>implying to believe in the current form of representative democracy

It's the logical application of equal rights for all citizens, from birth, to a pre-existing global nationalist system ... which perhaps does not apply so much in Europe, but hey, I'm not European.

Equal rights for all citizens within a nation, does not mean anti-globalist. People can (and probably will) live out their whole lives impeded by national borders, and within that constraint I'd like to see them have equal rights from birth. In each of their countries.

Are you an "open borders" globalist?? I thought you had a more practical bent.

No I am not. But i thought you were one. If you arent then maybe you should update our political credentials.

I am a globalist, but I'm not going to just shelve equality issues within national borders nor discard the concept of citizenship until globalism is achieved, because ... as I said, billions of people will have to live out their lives with unequal rights in the meantime. Globalism can only be achieved gradually, unless it's the world empire model which I obviously don't like.

You never presented an argument FOR a country to allow other citizenships concurrent with its own.

[Nakena]

>implying to believe in the current form of representative democracy



No I am not. But i thought you were one. If you arent then maybe you should update our political credentials.

I am a globalist, but I'm not going to just shelve equality issues within national borders nor discard the concept of citizenship until globalism is achieved, because ... as I said, billions of people will have to live out their lives with unequal rights in the meantime. Globalism can only be achieved gradually, unless it's the world empire model which I obviously don't like.

You never presented an argument FOR a country to allow other citizenships concurrent with its own.

My argument for multible passports is that i could multibly influence the elections in several countries at the same time. Altough the scope wouldn be really big and theres probably better ways to do so.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

I am a globalist, but I'm not going to just shelve equality issues within national borders nor discard the concept of citizenship until globalism is achieved, because ... as I said, billions of people will have to live out their lives with unequal rights in the meantime. Globalism can only be achieved gradually, unless it's the world empire model which I obviously don't like.

You never presented an argument FOR a country to allow other citizenships concurrent with its own.

My argument for multible passports is that i could multibly influence the elections in several countries at the same time. Altough the scope wouldn be really big and theres probably better ways to do so.

OK. Thanks for that.

My reason for the 2 year period of grace, was to make it easy for immigrants who decide they don't like their new country, to go back to their old country.

[Tarsonis]

you haven't said why

I have said why, quite comprehensively. Unearned privilege is wrong.

You want to make an argument why NOT? Not all countries allow dual citizenship with their own. Are they wrong?

So if you oppose unearned privilege, shouldn't you oppose birthright citizenship entirely.

Service guarantees citizenship and all that?

[Diarcesia]

I have said why, quite comprehensively. Unearned privilege is wrong.

You want to make an argument why NOT? Not all countries allow dual citizenship with their own. Are they wrong?

So if you oppose unearned privilege, shouldn't you oppose birthright citizenship entirely.

Service guarantees citizenship and all that?

The US can't legislate citizenship law of other countries, can't they?

[Tarsonis]

So if you oppose unearned privilege, shouldn't you oppose birthright citizenship entirely.

Service guarantees citizenship and all that?

The US can't legislate citizenship law of other countries, can't they?

no. But that's not really the point. This idea of unearned privilege is already ridiculous, but jus soli isn't a solution. Meritocratic citizenship is the only way to end "unearned privilege"

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

The US can't legislate citizenship law of other countries, can't they?

no. But that's not really the point. This idea of unearned privilege is already ridiculous, but jus soli isn't a solution. Meritocratic citizenship is the only way to end "unearned privilege"

But it would defeat thw purpose of the concept of rights.

[The Black Forrest]

The US can't legislate citizenship law of other countries, can't they?

no. But that's not really the point. This idea of unearned privilege is already ridiculous, but jus soli isn't a solution. Meritocratic citizenship is the only way to end "unearned privilege"

That approach has problems. Who defines the critique? For example; the best eduction? I have know/known extremely stupid people with large bank accounts who went to and have degrees from the big schools.

[Tarsonis]

no. But that's not really the point. This idea of unearned privilege is already ridiculous, but jus soli isn't a solution. Meritocratic citizenship is the only way to end "unearned privilege"

But it would defeat thw purpose of the concept of rights.

since when is citizenship a right?

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

But it would defeat thw purpose of the concept of rights.

since when is citizenship a right?

You misunderstand me. If you can only acquire citizenship based on some merit (defined by the legislator) then the rights you acquire by that citizenship become arbitrary, and cease to be rights.

But to answer your question anyway, since 1868 for people born in the US, per the 14th amendment.

[Cordel One]

More than 130 Secret Service officers are said to be infected with coronavirus or quarantining in wake of Trump’s campaign travel

[Diarcesia]

The US can't legislate citizenship law of other countries, can't they?

no. But that's not really the point. This idea of unearned privilege is already ridiculous, but jus soli isn't a solution. Meritocratic citizenship is the only way to end "unearned privilege"

Good in theory. In practice, crap like this could happen.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

But it would defeat thw purpose of the concept of rights.

since when is citizenship a right?

Since birth!

The utter inhumanity of allowing parents to treat their child as a foreigner, as the child isn't a citizen until they "earn" citizenship, should strike even you as a bad idea.

Why not consider citizenship an "advance" which must be earned or paid for at some time during life? Oh. Oh yeah, that would make taxes justified wouldn't it? Can't have that.

[The Black Forrest]

More than 130 Secret Service officers are said to be infected with coronavirus or quarantining in wake of Trump’s campaign travel

We needed leadership from the Whitehouse and we get a hot spot.