MAGAThread XX: A Journal of the Plague Year

[Ranoria]

I've addressed the 9/11 thing. If I had to guess, he saw on television Muslims celebrating around the world, which was shown, and mistook them for being in New York. There's obviously a lot of emotion there, that can cloud memories. Another example of this is Biden 'lying' about the way his family died, but in reality, he can't look at that situation objectively.

How the hell is him not believing Obama was born in the US racist? Stupid, sure, but not racist. Again, equating foreign country to racism. That's just an obnoxious narrative. Stop it.

However, while I was looking into that (I didn't actually know what birtherism was), I found this gem.


-Mitt Romney in 2012, I think. This is hilarious, considering Romney hates Trump now.

Trump was never asked to admit any guilt in those lawsuits. Say what you will, but the court of law ultimately didn't find him guilty of jack. Have you read the actual court documents? I have, not that hard to find. They make it pretty clear that "officers" within individual buildings and such could have been responsible, incidentally or purposefully, and that Trump Management has thousands of hotels around the world.


As for the central park five, racism again doesn't have to be the go to here. And Matias Reyes, who also confessed, was black as well(so I think race is out of the picture at this point). The kids confessed to a number of crimes, assaults, etc in the area. We now have evidence that they did not commit the attack in question, but at the time? In the 1980s? Correct me if I'm wrong, we couldn't fact check everything with a touch of our fingers. They had their confessions. He makes his stance on it pretty clear, with a lot of people involved in the case thinking it never should have gotten settled. Now, is he wrong? Probably. I tend to favor the court, because they know more than we do.

But again, I don't think information was as readily available back then as it is now.

EDIT- was there anything else you wanted me to look at?

Edit again - this was meant to go in the general election thread. Mods must've moved it. leaves cookies for the folks who have no context to this conversation

So what was the motivation for Birtherism then if not race? Why the automatic assumption that Obama must have been born abroad and thus be ineligible?

Well, at least you're conceding that your point is hinged upon your assumption of racism, ignoring all other factors at play, seems to be a common trend. May I also presume that you then are aware of the very weak claim you're making?

Iirc, and I was young(er) at the time, there was some argument about Barack Obama's birth certificate not being found, and his not being an American citizen. That whole thing seemed weird to me even then, but that's where that stemmed from, not racism.

[Vassenor]

So what was the motivation for Birtherism then if not race? Why the automatic assumption that Obama must have been born abroad and thus be ineligible?

Well, at least you're conceding that your point is hinged upon your assumption of racism, ignoring all other factors at play, seems to be a common trend. May I also presume that you then are aware of the very weak claim you're making?

Iirc, and I was young(er) at the time, there was some argument about Barack Obama's birth certificate not being found, and his not being an American citizen. That whole thing seemed weird to me even then, but that's where that stemmed from, not racism.

And why did people think he wasn't an American citizen? The birth certificate thing came later and it persisted even after it was provided.

[Farnhamia]

https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/09/politics/trump-fires-esper/index.html

Trump has fired Secretary of Defense Esper. He was already preparing to resign.

And ...

Ben Carson, the secretary of housing and urban development, has tested positive for the coronavirus, according to a spokesman for the agency, the latest in a long list of administration officials, including President Trump, to contract the virus.

“Secretary Carson has tested positive for the coronavirus. He is in good spirits and feels fortunate to have access to effective therapeutics which aid and markedly speed his recovery,” said Coalter Baker, the agency’s deputy chief of staff, in an email.

Mr. Carson, a neurosurgeon who ran unsuccessfully for the Republican presidential nomination in 2016, has defended Mr. Trump’s response to the virus.

Mr. Trump’s chief of staff, Mark Meadows, tested positive last week. Five other White House aides and a Trump campaign adviser also tested positive for the virus in the days before and after Election Day, people familiar with the diagnoses told The Times on Friday.

At 69, Mr. Carson is at an elevated risk for complications. He is also a cancer survivor, having undergone surgery in 2002 for an aggressive form of prostate cancer.

[Eukaryotic Cells]

https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/09/politics/trump-fires-esper/index.html

Trump has fired Secretary of Defense Esper. He was already preparing to resign.

Totally normal and not worrisome whatsoever. /s

[Eahland]

How the hell is him not believing Obama was born in the US racist? Stupid, sure, but not racist. Again, equating foreign country to racism. That's just an obnoxious narrative. Stop it.

Dude. Quit. Birtherism is racism. Everyone knows it. It is not in any way coincidence that the constant stream of proven-false allegations of non-citizenship were and are applied to our only black President and not to, say, his white Republican opponent, who was, by the same token, not born in the United States. It's a blatant declaration that black people can't really be Americans.

[Ranoria]

Well, at least you're conceding that your point is hinged upon your assumption of racism, ignoring all other factors at play, seems to be a common trend. May I also presume that you then are aware of the very weak claim you're making?

Iirc, and I was young(er) at the time, there was some argument about Barack Obama's birth certificate not being found, and his not being an American citizen. That whole thing seemed weird to me even then, but that's where that stemmed from, not racism.

And why did people think he wasn't an American citizen? The birth certificate thing came later and it persisted even after it was provided.

Notice how you're not giving any points? You're just asking why? You don't have anything. I'm not saying it was correct. I'm saying you have no basis for calling Trump racist off of it.

[Vassenor]

And why did people think he wasn't an American citizen? The birth certificate thing came later and it persisted even after it was provided.

Notice how you're not giving any points? You're just asking why? You don't have anything. I'm not saying it was correct. I'm saying you have no basis for calling Trump racist off of it.

Yet you're not addressing why a person born in Hawaii can't possibly be a US Citizen but someone born in Panama totally is no questions asked.

[Ranoria]

Notice how you're not giving any points? You're just asking why? You don't have anything. I'm not saying it was correct. I'm saying you have no basis for calling Trump racist off of it.

Yet you're not addressing why a person born in Hawaii can't possibly be a US Citizen but someone born in Panama totally is no questions asked.

For the third time in this conversation, I never said Obama isn't a US citizen(assuming that's who you're referencing). I pointed out that it's incorrect to think he isn't. There were factors at play, however, that may have led to suspicions that he wasn't.

But to assume that racism is the motivator when there were other factors at play, which I've pointed out, is just wrong.

[Vassenor]

Yet you're not addressing why a person born in Hawaii can't possibly be a US Citizen but someone born in Panama totally is no questions asked.

For the third time in this conversation, I never said Obama isn't a US citizen(assuming that's who you're referencing). I pointed out that it's incorrect to think he isn't. There were factors at play, however, that may have led to suspicions that he wasn't.

But to assume that racism is the motivator when there were other factors at play, which I've pointed out, is just wrong.

And we're asking why Trump thinks he's not a US Citizen.

[Punished UMN]

Haha this thread still exists

[Valrifell]

Haha this thread still exists

MAGAThreads are the singular constant of this chaotic world.

[Ranoria]

For the third time in this conversation, I never said Obama isn't a US citizen(assuming that's who you're referencing). I pointed out that it's incorrect to think he isn't. There were factors at play, however, that may have led to suspicions that he wasn't.

But to assume that racism is the motivator when there were other factors at play, which I've pointed out, is just wrong.

And we're asking why Trump thinks he's not a US Citizen.

And I explained that to you a couple times. Go back and read.

[Punished UMN]

Haha this thread still exists

MAGAThreads are the singular constant of this chaotic world.

Not for long.

[Vassenor]

And we're asking why Trump thinks he's not a US Citizen.

And I explained that to you a couple times. Go back and read.

No, you've just asserted that it's not racism because you said so.

[Cisairse]

Seems like M. T. Esper's ouster was (A) voluntary (B) planned for some time.

I don't see how this will change anything the administration is currently doing; C. Miller doesn't seem like a notable person in any way (in fact he seems like even more of a run-of-the-mill military-politician than Esper was).

[Vassenor]

Birthers and the persistence of racial paranoia

Let's stipulate at the outset that this whole birth certificate thing is madness, and that the madness comes down to the fact that the president is, for a certain depressingly high percentage of Americans, an Other with a capital O – the kind of person who, to their way of thinking, could not possibly have been legitimately elected the president of any United States they know.

So, there have to be other explanations. Acorn, a voter registration and poor people's rights group, stole the election for him. A cabal of shifty liberal journalists, many of whom merely happen to be Jewish (and – full disclosure – of which your correspondent was a member), allegedly conspired to vault him into our land's highest office. The well-meaning but naïve American people simply could not and would not have made this choice without being duped into it.

In one sense, it's understandable. After Ronald Reagan won, Nora Ephron joked that she didn't see how, as she didn't know a single person who voted for him. So it is with the birthers. They likely know no one who voted for Barack Obama, so all the information they received in 2008 that they trusted – not from the media, but from friends and co-workers – led them to search for explanations fair and foul. Acorn and the journalists helped them feel a little better, but they didn't solve the basic problem: that the man occupied the office.

And so, the birther story. Perfect. Explained everything. A conspiracy of immense proportions, concocted all the way back in 1961, had to be the only explanation for how this black man got to the White House. And if you think race isn't what this is about at its core, ask yourself if there would even be a birther conspiracy if Barack Obama were white and named Bart Oberstar. If you think there would be, you are delusional.

But today, the question is: should Obama have acknowledged the madness?

I think so, and probably earlier. The so-called long-form birth certificate, just a page, could not have taken long to dredge up from its Hawaiian storage coffin. There existed any number of occasions in 2009 and 2010 on which to deal with this. Why not then? I suspect there's no good reason. It's just another example of this White House's slowness of foot on so many political matters.

It is certainly a victory for Donald Trump, the maybe presidential candidate who's been banging on about this. And it's manna from heaven for the birther movement. Far from being satisfied that this ends the matter, the bloggers who depend on this "controversy" for their daily bread will obviously keep at it, finding more and more baroque angles to explore. It is possible, and maybe even probable, that the existence of this certificate will make them – and the Republicans who pander to them – look sillier to a larger percentage of people.

But the problems here are racial paranoia and the bald willingness of politicians to lie in order to stoke it. In at least this one respect, the election of the first African American president, rather than taking us forward, has drawn us back into a cobwebbed and pitiless past, from which there seems no escape.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

Yet you're not addressing why a person born in Hawaii can't possibly be a US Citizen but someone born in Panama totally is no questions asked.

For the third time in this conversation, I never said Obama isn't a US citizen(assuming that's who you're referencing). I pointed out that it's incorrect to think he isn't. There were factors at play, however, that may have led to suspicions that he wasn't.

But to assume that racism is the motivator when there were other factors at play, which I've pointed out, is just wrong.

Had he been white, would there have been a birtherist movement?

[The Reformed American Republic]

For the third time in this conversation, I never said Obama isn't a US citizen(assuming that's who you're referencing). I pointed out that it's incorrect to think he isn't. There were factors at play, however, that may have led to suspicions that he wasn't.

But to assume that racism is the motivator when there were other factors at play, which I've pointed out, is just wrong.

Had he been white, would there have been a birtherist movement?

Probably something just as bad. The party has lost it.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/09/politics/trump-fires-esper/index.html

Trump has fired Secretary of Defense Esper. He was already preparing to resign.

And ...

Ben Carson, the secretary of housing and urban development, has tested positive for the coronavirus, according to a spokesman for the agency, the latest in a long list of administration officials, including President Trump, to contract the virus.

“Secretary Carson has tested positive for the coronavirus. He is in good spirits and feels fortunate to have access to effective therapeutics which aid and markedly speed his recovery,” said Coalter Baker, the agency’s deputy chief of staff, in an email.

Mr. Carson, a neurosurgeon who ran unsuccessfully for the Republican presidential nomination in 2016, has defended Mr. Trump’s response to the virus.

Mr. Trump’s chief of staff, Mark Meadows, tested positive last week. Five other White House aides and a Trump campaign adviser also tested positive for the virus in the days before and after Election Day, people familiar with the diagnoses told The Times on Friday.

At 69, Mr. Carson is at an elevated risk for complications. He is also a cancer survivor, having undergone surgery in 2002 for an aggressive form of prostate cancer.

“Everyone who wants to become secretary for the Trump Administration for the last two weeks to help his scorched earth transition strategy, raise your hand”

I hope that now we will see the true face of the Republicans, now that attatching yourself to Trump will just mean further defeat.

[Maoskjortlund]

Goodness people are still going on about this? Trump is a well known racist, and his legacy (after he's done kicking and screaming his way out of the oval office) will be tainted for the rest of US history. So glad it's finally over.

[Ranoria]

And I explained that to you a couple times. Go back and read.

No, you've just asserted that it's not racism because you said so.

No. Actually that's been your point, is that it's racism because everything must be.

Iirc, and I was young(er) at the time, there was some argument about Barack Obama's birth certificate not being found, and his not being an American citizen. That whole thing seemed weird to me even then, but that's where that stemmed from, not racism.

^That was from me.

And again, there was a controversy around his birth certificate. At one point, 25% of Americans believed that Obama was not born in the United States. That means there was more than enough evidence at least for suspicion of his not being an American citizen. Hillary Clinton's supporters were circulating rumors about it, NPR said he was Kenyan born, etc.

So there you have it. Plenty of info at the time, even if it was sketch, that may have led him to believe that Obama wasn't a citizen. Enough of the cries for racism. It's a victim mentality.

[Major-Tom]

Worth a read.

The best quote;
“This is something out of the Pinochet regime. These Republicans who are indulging the president, they all know better. That’s what I find so disturbing: They know exactly what they’re doing, and they don’t care.”

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

Worth a read.

The best quote;
“This is something out of the Pinochet regime. These Republicans who are indulging the president, they all know better. That’s what I find so disturbing: They know exactly what they’re doing, and they don’t care.”

And in two years, Trump will be in London, Spain will demand his extradition, and Theresa May will defend her ‘good friend of Britain’.

[Albrenia]

It's kind of hard to argue the Birtherism is not racism, when no other President I know of has been accused of the same, and the baseless accusations continued even after his birth certificate came to light.

[Myrensis]

For the third time in this conversation, I never said Obama isn't a US citizen(assuming that's who you're referencing). I pointed out that it's incorrect to think he isn't. There were factors at play, however, that may have led to suspicions that he wasn't.

But to assume that racism is the motivator when there were other factors at play, which I've pointed out, is just wrong.

Had he been white, would there have been a birtherist movement?

C'mon it's clearly just complete coincidence that the Birther movement developed around the idea that the first black President/candidate in history was clearly actually a secret illegitimate African trying to steal the Presidency from Traditional(white) America!