Anti-Socialism Thread

[Suriyanakhon]

Katyn Massacre.

There's a ton of others, but I don't really care to get into them.

Done by nazi bullets in a time of year where the area was occupied by the nazis. Next question.

You're joking, right? The Katyn Massacre is unanimously accepted to have been committed by the Soviets so much that they didn't even dare bring up the accusations at the Nuremberg Trials and the Russian government accepts that they happened under the NKVD. The Soviets had every reason to murder the Polish officers who were a threat to their planned regime. We further have private written records from Nazi leaders which show that the massacres were not ordered by them.

‘Polish mass graves have been found near Smolensk. The Bolsheviks simply shot down and then shoveled into mass graves some 10,000 (sic) Polish prisoners.’

[Orostan]

Because they're facts. While there is immense evidence of the Holocaust, there is no evidence that Stalin was a 'murdering dictator'.

Katyn Massacre.

There's a ton of others, but I don't really care to get into them.

Done by nazi bullets in a time of year where the area was occupied by the nazis. Next question.

.[/quote]
It was done in Tver and Kharkiv using captured polish troops, with the graves dug in Katyn, during 1940, when Barbarossa hadn't even started.[/quote]
https://msuweb.montclair.edu/~furrg/res ... n_2013.pdf

here is some evidence that you are wrong. Archeological evidence shows that the bullets used in the executions could not have been produced in 1940 and calls into question the nazi propaganda narrative of Katyn.

[Orostan]

The Handicapper General would like to know your location.

*cocks shotgun*

Oh, look. People actually want me dead for expressing an opinion instead of coming up with a reasoned refutation of the plain, observable fact that some people are born more intelligent than others.

Will you dare make the same threat to James Madison if he were alive? He made the exact, same argument in the Federalist #10 that I linked in my sig.

This is why people like me believe so strongly in our right to self-defense when threatened with violence.

One day we stupid people will rise up and get rid of you boring smart people.

[Debate Proxy 1]

Oh, look. People actually want me dead for expressing an opinion instead of coming up with a reasoned refutation of the plain, observable fact that some people are born more intelligent than others.

Will you dare make the same threat to James Madison if he were alive? He made the exact, same argument in the Federalist #10 that I linked in my sig.

This is why people like me believe so strongly in our right to self-defense when threatened with violence.

One day we stupid people will rise up and get rid of you boring smart people.

Don't forget. My side is the one that has the biggest guns.

[Orostan]

One day we stupid people will rise up and get rid of you boring smart people.

Don't forget. My side is the one that has the biggest guns.

And mine is the side that made those guns.

[Debate Proxy 1]

Don't forget. My side is the one that has the biggest guns.

And mine is the side that made those guns.

Tell that to every Trump voter and pro-2A arms manufacturer.

[Washington Resistance Army]

https://msuweb.montclair.edu/~furrg/res ... n_2013.pdf

here is some evidence that you are wrong. Archeological evidence shows that the bullets used in the executions could not have been produced in 1940 and calls into question the nazi propaganda narrative of Katyn.

My guy the Russian parliament themselves have literally confirmed Stalin gave the order for Katyn to happen.

[Celestial Provinces]

Don't forget. My side is the one that has the biggest guns.

And mine is the side that made those guns.

But we have those guns, not you. Because you guys banned guns.

[Exalted Inquellian State]

Katyn Massacre.

There's a ton of others, but I don't really care to get into them.

Done by nazi bullets in a time of year where the area was occupied by the nazis. Next question.

.

It was done in Tver and Kharkiv using captured polish troops, with the graves dug in Katyn, during 1940, when Barbarossa hadn't even started.[/quote]
https://msuweb.montclair.edu/~furrg/res ... n_2013.pdf

here is some evidence that you are wrong. Archeological evidence shows that the bullets used in the executions could not have been produced in 1940 and calls into question the nazi propaganda narrative of Katyn.[/quote]
The bullets don't have to be made in 1940 to be used

[Rusozak]

Yeah and Nazis don't believe in the Holocaust. Why should any murderous dictator fanatic's opinions of said murdering dictator be taken seriously?

Because they're facts. While there is immense evidence of the Holocaust, there is no evidence that Stalin was a 'murdering dictator'.

Except there is tons of evidence, but like the Nazis who ignore evidence of the Holocaust, you ignore any evidence of the crimes of Stalin or Mao. I guess those millions of people just decided to voluntarily disappear. You believe whatever you want to believe and warp your perception of reality to fit that narrative. I bet you're also in the gulag denial and "Tiananmen massacre never happened" crowd.

[Orostan]

Done by nazi bullets in a time of year where the area was occupied by the nazis. Next question.

.

It was done in Tver and Kharkiv using captured polish troops, with the graves dug in Katyn, during 1940, when Barbarossa hadn't even started.

https://msuweb.montclair.edu/~furrg/res ... n_2013.pdf

here is some evidence that you are wrong. Archeological evidence shows that the bullets used in the executions could not have been produced in 1940 and calls into question the nazi propaganda narrative of Katyn.[/quote]
The bullets don't have to be made in 1940 to be used[/quote]
How is a bullet made in 1941 used in 1940?

[Debate Proxy 1]

Because they're facts. While there is immense evidence of the Holocaust, there is no evidence that Stalin was a 'murdering dictator'.

Except there is tons of evidence, but like the Nazis who ignore evidence of the Holocaust, you ignore any evidence of the crimes of Stalin or Mao. I guess those millions of people just decided to voluntarily disappear. You believe whatever you want to believe and warp your perception of reality to fit that narrative. I bet you're also in the gulag denial and "Tiananmen massacre never happened" crowd.

As I recall it, all the people in Tiananmen Square put up the Statue of Liberty and defied death in the face of tanks.

[Orostan]

Except there is tons of evidence, but like the Nazis who ignore evidence of the Holocaust, you ignore any evidence of the crimes of Stalin or Mao. I guess those millions of people just decided to voluntarily disappear. You believe whatever you want to believe and warp your perception of reality to fit that narrative. I bet you're also in the gulag denial and "Tiananmen massacre never happened" crowd.

As I recall it, all the people in Tiananmen Square put up the Statue of Liberty and defied death in the face of tanks.

great, they also sang maoist songs and waved red flags.

[Rusozak]

As I recall it, all the people in Tiananmen Square put up the Statue of Liberty and defied death in the face of tanks.

great, they also sang maoist songs and waved red flags.

And then the people were gunned down by the People's Liberation Army.

[Orostan]

Because they're facts. While there is immense evidence of the Holocaust, there is no evidence that Stalin was a 'murdering dictator'.

Except there is tons of evidence, but like the Nazis who ignore evidence of the Holocaust, you ignore any evidence of the crimes of Stalin or Mao. I guess those millions of people just decided to voluntarily disappear. You believe whatever you want to believe and warp your perception of reality to fit that narrative. I bet you're also in the gulag denial and "Tiananmen massacre never happened" crowd.

I have presented nothing but facts and evidence that you could read over yourself. Besides that there is literally no evidence of shooting in Tianamen Square, but there was around it and it is exceedingly unlikely that a large number of people were shot. Regardless of that I hate Deng and Tianamen Square was an atrocity.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Except there is tons of evidence, but like the Nazis who ignore evidence of the Holocaust, you ignore any evidence of the crimes of Stalin or Mao. I guess those millions of people just decided to voluntarily disappear. You believe whatever you want to believe and warp your perception of reality to fit that narrative. I bet you're also in the gulag denial and "Tiananmen massacre never happened" crowd.

I have presented nothing but facts and evidence that you could read over yourself.

Holocaust deniers can do the same thing. Literally the nation accused of Katyn has said they did it. Case closed.

[Sicilian Imperial-Capitalist Empire]

Exactly why I'm not going to make a proper argument against such nonsense. The official Soviet archives have been cited numerous times as evidence of Stalin's crimes (most notably, the gulag). Even non-Soviet historiographers have tried their hand at it (although I wouldn't recommend it).

And to Orostan, you have to attack the author just as much as the source. Otherwise you're not properly evaluating your sources. You have to scrutinize your sources before even thinking about using them.

I only use Wikipedia for things that are very general and should be easy to find (like perhaps an author's credentials, maybe?).

Prove it. I've given you plenty of archival sources and writings based on that which you refuse to read because you are wrong.

Bruh.

Aside from that, let's see what your sources are eh?

First source in this thread: Grover Furr, who is unqualified.

Second source in this thread: Robert W. Thurston. Actually qualified this time. His source, however, does not refute Stalin's terrors. Instead, he simply talks about how the average worker wasn't punished by Stalin (which I mean, obviously). It doesn't refute any of Stalin's crimes, however. Nor does it refute Stalin randomly throwing many into the gulag. Instead, it simply claims that life for the average worker under Stalin was fine (again, without necessarily refuting paranoia). Great source, but not helpful for your case.

Third source in this thread: Irrelevant to the argument. Obviously, people already know that Stalin didn't just put his head in the sand like most people say. But at the same time, the Red Army was still incompetent, not because of Stalin (who they didn't really need), but because he purged competent Red Army generals.

Fourth source in this thread: Book review by Mark Tauger, a history professor in West Virginia. Actually credible source. This one's hard for me to say anything about, considering I've never read the book nor assessed it's sources. But I will say that Stalin starved the Ukrainians by exporting their grain to other areas (although the bigger problem was Stalin taking out the Kulaks, which was a pretty vague term to describe peasants that owned land, and really this would've caused a famine anyways). I'm not going to go so far as to say Stalin deliberately starved the Ukrainians (that'd be ignoring the complexity of the Holodomor), but I will say Stalin's mistakes in Ukraine led to the Holodomor.

Fifth source in this thread: This time we have actual Soviet historiographers. We're getting closer to the facts. Ironically, your source actually proves Stalin's paranoia. People were, according to your own source, "(falsely) accused of political sympathies with states with which relations were strained, especially at a time when the authorities suspected fifth columns throughout the country and ordered a clampdown on 'spies and nationalists.'" So this source, right here tells us that Stalin locked up innocent people because he thought they were fifth columnists. According to your own source, they even believed in the system after they were locked up, "the great majority of those sentenced for (sic) "counterrevolu- tionary offenses" had never committed any act deliberately directed against the Soviet system and even continued to remain faithful to the Bolshevik cause, notwithstanding their victimization." For as much as you want me to read your sources, it seems like you haven't read them yourself.

Sixth source in this thread: Grover Furr, again. Not qualified, and not going to bother.

So, after seeing your sources, I must conclude that you have not disproven anything pertaining to Stalin. Instead, you have actually strengthened the claim of Stalin's paranoia and fear-mongering regime. Yes, the average worker didn't care (remember, they were fed Soviet propaganda), but this doesn't mean that Stalinist reign of terror didn't exist.

[Debate Proxy 1]

great, they also sang maoist songs and waved red flags.

And then the people were gunned down by the People's Liberation Army.

And I might add, that was a spill-over from the Cultural Revolution. There were two factions of "Red Guards", the "Order" faction of which behaved just like our censorious statists today and said weapons should be property of the state, and the "Rebel" faction of which argued in terms of the whole people's right to bear arms. Those two factions were literally at war during the CR.

I'd say that those "Maoists" who got gunned down were already half-Americanized before they came to Tiananmen.

[Communal League]

And mine is the side that made those guns.

But we have those guns, not you. Because you guys banned guns.

I wouldn't be so sure about that.

You are sorely mistaken if you think that the American Democratic Party practices anything remotely resembling a socialist ideology.

[Orostan]

I have presented nothing but facts and evidence that you could read over yourself.

Holocaust deniers can do the same thing. Literally the nation accused of Katyn has said they did it. Case closed.

They're wrong and I can prove it. I'm right and I have proven it.

And then the people were gunned down by the People's Liberation Army.

And I might add, that was a spill-over from the Cultural Revolution. There were two factions of "Red Guards", the "Order" faction of which behaved just like our censorious statists today and said weapons should be property of the state, and the "Rebel" faction of which argued in terms of the whole people's right to bear arms. Those two factions were literally at war during the CR.

I'd say that those "Maoists" who got gunned down were already half-Americanized before they came to Tiananmen.

What you say is irrelevant, what history says proves me right.

Prove it. I've given you plenty of archival sources and writings based on that which you refuse to read because you are wrong.

Bruh.

Aside from that, let's see what your sources are eh?

First source in this thread: Grover Furr, who is unqualified.

Second source in this thread: Robert W. Thurston. Actually qualified this time. His source, however, does not refute Stalin's terrors. Instead, he simply talks about how the average worker wasn't punished by Stalin (which I mean, obviously). It doesn't refute any of Stalin's crimes, however. Nor does it refute Stalin randomly throwing many into the gulag. Instead, it simply claims that life for the average worker under Stalin was fine (again, without necessarily refuting paranoia). Great source, but not helpful for your case.

Third source in this thread: Irrelevant to the argument. Obviously, people already know that Stalin didn't just put his head in the sand like most people say. But at the same time, the Red Army was still incompetent, not because of Stalin (who they didn't really need), but because he purged competent Red Army generals.

Fourth source in this thread: Book review by Mark Tauger, a history professor in West Virginia. Actually credible source. This one's hard for me to say anything about, considering I've never read the book nor assessed it's sources. But I will say that Stalin starved the Ukrainians by exporting their grain to other areas (although the bigger problem was Stalin taking out the Kulaks, which was a pretty vague term to describe peasants that owned land, and really this would've caused a famine anyways). I'm not going to go so far as to say Stalin deliberately starved the Ukrainians (that'd be ignoring the complexity of the Holodomor), but I will say Stalin's mistakes in Ukraine led to the Holodomor.

Fifth source in this thread: This time we have actual Soviet historiographers. We're getting closer to the facts. Ironically, your source actually proves Stalin's paranoia. People were, according to your own source, "(falsely) accused of political sympathies with states with which relations were strained, especially at a time when the authorities suspected fifth columns throughout the country and ordered a clampdown on 'spies and nationalists.'" So this source, right here tells us that Stalin locked up innocent people because he thought they were fifth columnists. According to your own source, they even believed in the system after they were locked up, "the great majority of those sentenced for (sic) "counterrevolu- tionary offenses" had never committed any act deliberately directed against the Soviet system and even continued to remain faithful to the Bolshevik cause, notwithstanding their victimization." For as much as you want me to read your sources, it seems like you haven't read them yourself.

Sixth source in this thread: Grover Furr, again. Not qualified, and not going to bother.

So, after seeing your sources, I must conclude that you have not disproven anything pertaining to Stalin. Instead, you have actually strengthened the claim of Stalin's paranoia and fear-mongering regime. Yes, the average worker didn't care (remember, they were fed Soviet propaganda), but this doesn't mean that Stalinist reign of terror didn't exist.

1. irrelevant attack.

2. read the actual evidence it refutes a lot about what people say about Stalin's USSR, especially with what I was claiming.

3. It refutes a claim that was made.

4. Tauger proves you wrong, Stalin's "mistakes" did not cause a famine and he proves it.

5. I have presented nothing but the facts, and if you actually read the source you will see that there was no insane paranoia in Stalin and there was a very real fifth column, just like there was in France and every country except the USSR invaded by the Nazis. Power struggles in the government are a complicated thing and I have already explained that I don't believe the people arrested for the Moscow trials were actual nazis, no Marxist-Leninist has ever claimed that or ever will because it's not true.

6. irrelevant way of ignoring evidence. read the pdf liberal.

7. So, after seeing your lack of sources, I must conclude that you have not proven anything pertaining to Stalin. Instead you have actually strengthened the claim that Stalin had an overwhelmingly positive impact on the world and ran the USSR as a worker's state. Yes, the average worker benefited enormously from soviet socialism (remember, anti communist propaganda claims the opposite), but this does not mean that the system was perfect nor that it was what socialism will look like in the future.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Holocaust deniers can do the same thing. Literally the nation accused of Katyn has said they did it. Case closed.

They're wrong and I can prove it. I'm right and I have proven it.

They also say that too lol. Russia literally admitted they did it. Furr is a moron and you should stop listening to him.

[Communal League]

You know, I can't help but feel that the socialist movement would be more effective of less of its adherents dedicated their political project to defending the reputation of a polity that hasn't existed for nearly 30 years. But maybe that's just me.

[Picairn]

Do we have a genocide denier in here?

[Orostan]

They're wrong and I can prove it. I'm right and I have proven it.

They also say that too lol. Russia literally admitted they did it. Furr is a moron and you should stop listening to him.

>noooo you have to believe stuff an anti communist dictatorship said noooo

Furr is right and you are unable to prove him wrong because of that. I can prove a holocaust denier wrong in a million ways but you can't prove me wrong in even one. Besides that everyone says that about anything they believe against something someone else does not believe.

[Debate Proxy 1]

And I might add, that was a spill-over from the Cultural Revolution. There were two factions of "Red Guards", the "Order" faction of which behaved just like our censorious statists today and said weapons should be property of the state, and the "Rebel" faction of which argued in terms of the whole people's right to bear arms. Those two factions were literally at war during the CR.

I'd say that those "Maoists" who got gunned down were already half-Americanized before they came to Tiananmen.

What you say is irrelevant, what history says proves me right.

Looks to me like you're on the wrong side of the class struggle, bud.