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Anti-Socialism Thread

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Who is your favourite anti-socialist author?

Poll ended at Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:23 am

Milton Friedman
9
15%
Ludwig von Mises
3
5%
Thomas Sowell
6
10%
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
10
16%
Ayn Rand
9
15%
Friedrich Hayek
0
No votes
Irving Kristol
1
2%
Karl Popper
6
10%
Boris Pasternak
6
10%
Other
12
19%
 
Total votes : 62

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Kowani
Post Czar
 
Posts: 44641
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:06 pm

Eurasies wrote:
Kowani wrote:...Define "prosperity"

Higher quality of life, higher life expectancy, higher human development index, less corruption, strongest economies in the world, higher nominal GDP?

Then none of the countries named win on any of those scales.
"The Barons of England demanded the Security of Law for Themselves, the Patriots of America proclaimed the Security and Protection for All. All men are equal before the Law. No matter upon what spot of the Earth's surface they were born; no matter whether an Asiatic or African, a European or an American Sun first burned upon them; no matter whether citizens or strangers, no matter whether rich or poor, no matter whether wise or simple, no matter whether strong or weak, this new Magna Carta to Mankind declares the rights of All to Life and Liberty and Property are Equal Before the Law."

~Rep. John Bingham (R-OH)



User avatar
-Ra-
Diplomat
 
Posts: 980
Founded: Aug 09, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby -Ra- » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:06 pm

Phaenix wrote:
Eurasies wrote:Higher quality of life, higher life expectancy, higher human development index, less corruption, strongest economies in the world, higher nominal GDP?

Then that's not the US.

The US, UK, Canada and EU, which are all capitalist, have the highest marks on all of these.

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Phaenix
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 463
Founded: Jun 19, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Phaenix » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:06 pm

Eurasies wrote:
Phaenix wrote:Then that's not the US.

Canada, United Kingdom, Switzerland, Germany, Netherlands?

That's more like it!
Roma Aeterna!

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ANTI: Electoral College, Trump, Democrats, Republicans, Nazism, imperialism, libertarianism, communism, CCP

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Sanghyeok
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5035
Founded: Dec 29, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Sanghyeok » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:07 pm

Kowani wrote:
Eurasies wrote:Higher quality of life, higher life expectancy, higher human development index, less corruption, strongest economies in the world, higher nominal GDP?

Then none of the countries named win on any of those scales.


GDP is rather silly measure anyways...I doubt the majority of people in Qatar (GDP per capita of over 100,000) are enjoying a good standard of life.
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Magical socialist paradise headed by an immortal, tea-loving and sometimes childish Chairwoman who happens to be the younger Ōmiya sister

Mini custard puddings
And fresh poured Darjeeling
Strawberry parfait so sweet and appealing,
Little soft plushies and baths in hot springs
These are a few of my favourite things

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Pepsi Co
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 44
Founded: Oct 13, 2013
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Pepsi Co » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:07 pm

I say we should replace the government with corporations, abolish the minimum wage, ban those socialist run charities and soup kitchens, and exile every registered democrat and the unemployed to internment camps in New Mexico to die of heat stroke. With all the pinkos and their ideology dead we'll enter a capitalist golden age!
Last edited by Pepsi Co on Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Eurasies
Envoy
 
Posts: 315
Founded: Feb 23, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Eurasies » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:08 pm

Kowani wrote:
Eurasies wrote:Higher quality of life, higher life expectancy, higher human development index, less corruption, strongest economies in the world, higher nominal GDP?

Then none of the countries named win on any of those scales.

And perhaps the socialist paradises yes?
The Federal Republic of Eurasies
"Federation, Libereco & Capitalismo"


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Phaenix
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 463
Founded: Jun 19, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Phaenix » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:09 pm

-Ra- wrote:
Phaenix wrote:Then that's not the US.

The US, UK, Canada and EU, which are all capitalist, have the highest marks on all of these.

The average American lifespan is much shorter than what is normal. The US, if you haven't seen the news, if on fire right now with arguably the most corrupt president to take office bungling everything. The quality of life in the US is also piss-poor, with most of the poorer population unable to feed their children without public school lunch systems. The US is by no means an exemplar of the capitalist ideology.
Last edited by Phaenix on Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Roma Aeterna!

PRO: Autocracy, secularism, socialism, meritocracy, freedom of speech
ANTI: Electoral College, Trump, Democrats, Republicans, Nazism, imperialism, libertarianism, communism, CCP

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Eurasies
Envoy
 
Posts: 315
Founded: Feb 23, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Eurasies » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:10 pm

Pepsi Co wrote:I say we should replace the government with corporations, abolish the minimum wage, ban those socialist run charities and soup kitchens, and exile every registered democrat to internment camps in New Mexico to die of heat stroke. With all the pinkos and their ideology dead we'll enter a capitalist golden age!

I am liberal, but this is already very extreme
The Federal Republic of Eurasies
"Federation, Libereco & Capitalismo"


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The Marlborough
Minister
 
Posts: 2643
Founded: May 27, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby The Marlborough » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:10 pm

Eurasies wrote:
Kowani wrote:...Define "prosperity"

1)Higher quality of life, 1)higher life expectancy, 3)higher human development index, 4)less corruption, 5)strongest economies in the world, 6)higher nominal GDP?

1) Top three countries according to GDP (PPP) per capita: Qatar, Singapore, Luxembourg
2) Life expectancy top three: Hong Kong, Japan, Singapore
3) Top three HDI: Norway, Switzerland, Ireland
4) Corruption: New Zealand, Denmark, Finland
5) GDP (PPP): China, USA, India
6) GDP nominal: US, China, Japan

You'll note the US only appears on the last two, which should be givens, and neither the UK nor Canada appear in any of them.
Last edited by The Marlborough on Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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-Ra-
Diplomat
 
Posts: 980
Founded: Aug 09, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby -Ra- » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:10 pm

Sanghyeok wrote:
Kowani wrote:Then none of the countries named win on any of those scales.


GDP is rather silly measure anyways...I doubt the majority of people in Qatar (GDP per capita of over 100,000) are enjoying a good standard of life.

Qatar has a pretty high HDI score (0.848) and is 29th on the World Happiness Report. You are right that GDP does not always correlate with standard of living, but it is a good indicator.

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New haven america
Post Czar
 
Posts: 42854
Founded: Oct 08, 2012
Left-Leaning College State

Postby New haven america » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:10 pm

-Ra- wrote:
New haven america wrote:1. Those are socialist policies and this is an anti-socialism thread, so...
2. They are not.
3. A capitalist system of resource management says its way is the best and everything else is wrong. Who could've guessed?

1. They are not socialist policies. Kinda telling that you don't know what socialism is.
2. They are.
3. Economics is not capitalism. This is like saying that science prefers vaccines, therefore science is biased towards vaccines and against anti-vaxxers. Socialism is the anti-vaxx movement of economics.

1. They are, as they caame about during the Industrial Revolution and the rise of the USSR, 2 major periods of time where socialism took off.
2. YouTube is not a source.
3. Economics is the study of resource management through a capitalist lens. Even my economics professor admitted this.
Last edited by New haven america on Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Char/Axis 2020

That's all folks~

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-Ra-
Diplomat
 
Posts: 980
Founded: Aug 09, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby -Ra- » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:11 pm

The Marlborough wrote:
Eurasies wrote:1)Higher quality of life, 1)higher life expectancy, 3)higher human development index, 4)less corruption, 5)strongest economies in the world, 6)higher nominal GDP?

1) Top three countries according to GDP (PPP) per capita: Qatar, Singapore, Luxembourg
2) Life expectancy top three: Hong Kong, Japan, Singapore
3) Top three HDI: Norway, Switzerland, Ireland
4) Corruption: New Zealand, Denmark, Finland
5) GDP (PPP): China, USA, India
6) GDP nominal: US, China, Japan

All of these countries bar China are capitalist.

User avatar
VlaRiSsiA
Envoy
 
Posts: 250
Founded: Oct 16, 2019
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby VlaRiSsiA » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:11 pm

Kowani wrote:
VlaRiSsiA wrote: I’m directing my message to the inevitable swarm of toxic nations. It’s not happening yet, but always threads get jacked

You...don't spend a lot of time on NSG, do you.

Sanghyeok wrote:
They are a libertarian socialist from my conversations with them.
There is no need to friendly fire, comrade.

It is not "friendly fire" when I point out that they're attacking socialists for a position taken by nobody.

You actually think I’m an anti-socialist capitalist? If you see my posts, you will not see anti-socialism(unless you interpret anti-Stalinism/Authoritarianism as anti-socialism which is a shitty take). I am a massive critic of authoritarianism and capitalism, and how both lead to injustice and oppression, hence the ‘libertarian socialist’. Also, my nation itself is a parody of Stalinism/Juche, not communism, and how supporters of Stalin are no different from reactionaries.

Also, I’ve spent enough time on NSG to know how toxic people can get. Like really toxic. And it doesn’t take many threads to see how often threads go way off topic.
VlaRiSsiA is a Shrekist Totalitarian Hyper-Stalinist Juche^2 Nazbol Thearchy created after the Great Ogrethrow in 2094. Has a massive WIP multi-nation lore. We don’t use most stats(our personal and political freedoms are negative 100 in canon)
Date: October, 2161
VlaRiSsiA is like an onion, it has L A Y E R S
authleft, national communist, left wing nationalist, socially conservative, shitposter
Glorious News: Our Omnipotent Supreme Leader with his glorious omniscience purges Comrade Pingu(who makes Stalin look like an anarchist) for being too anarchist.
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Cloud-Cuckoo-Land
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 15
Founded: Sep 27, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Cloud-Cuckoo-Land » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:11 pm

-Ra- wrote:
Cloud-Cuckoo-Land wrote:Prosperity is not a highest priority, though. It is essential to have a working economy, sure, but sufficient is enough, or even better than superior, if other things are also taken into account. You can say prosperity is of highest importance to you and you have every right to do so. But most people don't really care about numbers but just the ability to live their life in peace. As long as an average person can manage, their economy can be inferior to some other country's economy.

You can live off 200K dollars annually. Just because someone else earns 300K does not automatically mean they are better in every single regard than you are.

Thankfully we live in a capitalist system that lets most people live their lives in peace. That's kind of the point. The people of Mao's China or Pol Pot's Cambodia didn't get to live their lives in peace. They were starved to death or hacked up by machetes in open fields.

You are purposefully picking the most extreme examples of governments which don't even necessarily have to be socialist. They only asserted themselves as socialist. North Korea also calls itself a democratic republic. This is a fallacy known as "mistaking the map for territory".

There was a capitalist country which oppressed some people just as much. It was called United States, way back in 1864 and before.
But using that example to prove that capitalism is inherently wrong and socialism is god is not going to be intellectually honest on my part. I am not going to play your game, because it invariably leads to a gathering of people who engage in self-indulgment rather pursuing an intellectually rigorous discourse.
Last edited by Cloud-Cuckoo-Land on Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:17 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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The Marlborough
Minister
 
Posts: 2643
Founded: May 27, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby The Marlborough » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:12 pm

-Ra- wrote:
The Marlborough wrote:1) Top three countries according to GDP (PPP) per capita: Qatar, Singapore, Luxembourg
2) Life expectancy top three: Hong Kong, Japan, Singapore
3) Top three HDI: Norway, Switzerland, Ireland
4) Corruption: New Zealand, Denmark, Finland
5) GDP (PPP): China, USA, India
6) GDP nominal: US, China, Japan

All of these countries bar China are capitalist.

That wasn't the original bar set.
How could the Irish potato famine happen if they were surrounded by fish?
Support the Lil Red Dress Project to bring awareness to MMIWG.
Bless our neon cyberpunk future.

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Pepsi Co
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 44
Founded: Oct 13, 2013
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Pepsi Co » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:12 pm

Eurasies wrote:
Pepsi Co wrote:I say we should replace the government with corporations, abolish the minimum wage, ban those socialist run charities and soup kitchens, and exile every registered democrat to internment camps in New Mexico to die of heat stroke. With all the pinkos and their ideology dead we'll enter a capitalist golden age!

I am liberal, but this is already very extreme

You're just thinking too small pinkie. Embrace the Ancap way. :)

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Eurasies
Envoy
 
Posts: 315
Founded: Feb 23, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Eurasies » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:13 pm

The Marlborough wrote:
Eurasies wrote:1)Higher quality of life, 1)higher life expectancy, 3)higher human development index, 4)less corruption, 5)strongest economies in the world, 6)higher nominal GDP?

1) Top three countries according to GDP (PPP) per capita: Qatar, Singapore, Luxembourg
2) Life expectancy top three: Hong Kong, Japan, Singapore
3) Top three HDI: Norway, Switzerland, Ireland
4) Corruption: New Zealand, Denmark, Finland
5) GDP (PPP): China, USA, India
6) GDP nominal: US, China, Japan

You'll note the US only appears on the last two, which should be givens, and neither the UK nor Canada appear in any of them.

Qatar, Singapore, Luxembourg, Hong Kong, New Zealand are capitalists

What do you mean?
The Federal Republic of Eurasies
"Federation, Libereco & Capitalismo"


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-Ra-
Diplomat
 
Posts: 980
Founded: Aug 09, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby -Ra- » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:13 pm

New haven america wrote:1. They are, as thy come about during the Industrial Revolution and the rise of the USSR, 2 major periods of time where socialism took off.
2. YouTube is not a source.
3. Economics is the study of resource management through a capitalist lens.

1. This is incorrect. Social insurance existed since Bismarck. Not the USSR, which had a laughably weak social security net that let millions die.
2. MIT Economics Department certainly is :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
3. No it isn't. It's the study of resource management using data and scientific reasoning. It's possible to study the USSR's policies in terms of economics, for instance. But we know that socialism has an aversion to data and scientific reason, so what does it matter?

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Kowani
Post Czar
 
Posts: 44641
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:15 pm

-Ra- wrote:
Phaenix wrote:Then that's not the US.

The US, UK, Canada and EU, which are all capitalist, have the highest marks on all of these.

The EU is not a single country, so we'll discard that. Unless you want to claim that living in Hungary is as good as living in Denmark, in which case, you can be safely ignored.
Anyway.
Quality of life winner: Denmark.
Life Expectancy Winner: Japan
Corruption Winner: New Zealand
I will admit I was wrong, the US does win on the most useless metric, Nominal GDP.

Would you like to try again?
"The Barons of England demanded the Security of Law for Themselves, the Patriots of America proclaimed the Security and Protection for All. All men are equal before the Law. No matter upon what spot of the Earth's surface they were born; no matter whether an Asiatic or African, a European or an American Sun first burned upon them; no matter whether citizens or strangers, no matter whether rich or poor, no matter whether wise or simple, no matter whether strong or weak, this new Magna Carta to Mankind declares the rights of All to Life and Liberty and Property are Equal Before the Law."

~Rep. John Bingham (R-OH)



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-Ra-
Diplomat
 
Posts: 980
Founded: Aug 09, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby -Ra- » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:15 pm

Cloud-Cuckoo-Land wrote:
-Ra- wrote:Thankfully we live in a capitalist system that lets most people live their lives in peace. That's kind of the point. The people of Mao's China or Pol Pot's Cambodia didn't get to live their lives in peace. They were starved to death or hacked up by machetes in open fields.

You are purposefully picking the most extreme examples of governments which don't even necessarily have to be socialist. They only asserted themselves as socialist. North Korea also calls itself a democratic republic - is it one?

There was a capitalist country which oppressed some people just as much. It was called United States, way back in 1864 and before.
But using that example to prove that capitalism is inherently wrong and socialism is god is not going to be intellectually honest on my part. I am not going to play your game.

You're comparing apples to oranges. The US has done a lot of bad things in its history, but its policies did not result in the slaughter of one-third of its population or the deaths of up to 55 million people.

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New haven america
Post Czar
 
Posts: 42854
Founded: Oct 08, 2012
Left-Leaning College State

Postby New haven america » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:16 pm

-Ra- wrote:
New haven america wrote:1. They are, as thy come about during the Industrial Revolution and the rise of the USSR, 2 major periods of time where socialism took off.
2. YouTube is not a source.
3. Economics is the study of resource management through a capitalist lens.

1. This is incorrect. Social insurance existed since Bismarck. Not the USSR, which had a laughably weak social security net that let millions die.
2. MIT Economics Department certainly is :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
3. No it isn't. It's the study of resource management using data and scientific reasoning. It's possible to study the USSR's policies in terms of economics, for instance. But we know that socialism has an aversion to data and scientific reason, so what does it matter?

1. It's not, but considering how uninformed you are about socialism I'm not surprised this is your take.
2. An entire department dedicated to saying "Capitalism is better because capitalism says so!"
3. Yep, it is. Even my economics and business professors have admitted it.
Human of the male variety
Will accept TGs
Char/Axis 2020

That's all folks~

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Phaenix
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 463
Founded: Jun 19, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Phaenix » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:16 pm

-Ra- wrote:
New haven america wrote:1. They are, as thy come about during the Industrial Revolution and the rise of the USSR, 2 major periods of time where socialism took off.
2. YouTube is not a source.
3. Economics is the study of resource management through a capitalist lens.

1. This is incorrect. Social insurance existed since Bismarck. Not the USSR, which had a laughably weak social security net that let millions die.
2. MIT Economics Department certainly is :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
3. No it isn't. It's the study of resource management using data and scientific reasoning. It's possible to study the USSR's policies in terms of economics, for instance. But we know that socialism has an aversion to data and scientific reason, so what does it matter?

Let me correct you. Socialism is not averse to data and scientific reason. On the contrary, it looks at the very reasonable problem that some people don't have enough, while some have more than enough. The solution? Take some from the rich, and give it to the poor. The rich won't go hungry because they lost a small percentage of their wealth, and the poor won't become layabouts just because their not dying.
Roma Aeterna!

PRO: Autocracy, secularism, socialism, meritocracy, freedom of speech
ANTI: Electoral College, Trump, Democrats, Republicans, Nazism, imperialism, libertarianism, communism, CCP

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The New California Republic
Post Czar
 
Posts: 35392
Founded: Jun 06, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:16 pm

-Ra- wrote:But we know that socialism has an aversion to data and scientific reason

Lol wut.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

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They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
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Punished UMN
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5445
Founded: Jul 05, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Punished UMN » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:16 pm

-Ra- wrote:
New haven america wrote:Capitalism: "Universal healthcare and social safety nets are evil because they steal money from the pockets of hard workers and socialism would never work because humans are inherently too selfish!"

Ok, so how do we deal with people who can't afford healthcare or food?

Capitalism: "IDFK. Charity or something?"

Nobody's saying that you have to get rid of universal healthcare and food. Markets are the best allocator of goods. That's a fact of economics and the reason why socialist countries fail. However, a certain amount of government intervention in the economy is good. So sometimes the government should step in, but for most cases it's unnecessary.

Quite ironic that healthcare and food tend to be the shittiest in socialist countries.

The market is such an efficient allocator of goods that some people end up with millions of times more goods than other people and some end up with no goods at all.
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-Ra-
Diplomat
 
Posts: 980
Founded: Aug 09, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby -Ra- » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:16 pm

Kowani wrote:
-Ra- wrote:The US, UK, Canada and EU, which are all capitalist, have the highest marks on all of these.

The EU is not a single country, so we'll discard that. Unless you want to claim that living in Hungary is as good as living in Denmark, in which case, you can be safely ignored.
Anyway.
Quality of life winner: Denmark.
Life Expectancy Winner: Japan
Corruption Winner: New Zealand
I will admit I was wrong, the US does win on the most useless metric, Nominal GDP.

Would you like to try again?

And yet all of the countries you've cited are capitalist. New Zealand is the most business friendly country in the world. I don't really advocate for American style free marketeerism, but I am a stern capitalist, and I thank you for demonstrating that capitalism does indeed work mate.

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