NationStates

Posted: **Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:32 am**

Cordel One wrote:
Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana wrote:Class exists, but the Marxist narrative holds class to be the primary instigator of all conflict. In contrast, fascist and fualangist theory holds culture and nation to be the primary instigators, and encourage class collaboration under a corporatist model. Both are opposed to unchained capitalism

The main point of Marxism isn't anti-capitalist so much as it is anti-hierarchial and anti-oppressive. No matter how much of our language fascists steal they will never be anything like us.

I don't think they ever intended to be like you thought

Posted: **Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:34 am**

Cordel One wrote:
Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana wrote:Class exists, but the Marxist narrative holds class to be the primary instigator of all conflict. In contrast, fascist and fualangist theory holds culture and nation to be the primary instigators, and encourage class collaboration under a corporatist model. Both are opposed to unchained capitalism

The main point of Marxism isn't anti-capitalist so much as it is anti-hierarchial and anti-oppressive. No matter how much of our language fascists steal they will never be anything like us.

Well obviously, fascism and Marxism have the opposite goals, and fascism is inherently based on the concept of hierarchy being necessary for stability and order, something that is supported by all of human history again

Posted: **Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:34 am**

Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana wrote:The Marxist worldview is inherently flawed in that sense, because it encourages the destruction of cultural and national identity in favor of an artificial class identity. This cultural destruction has often been violent, throughout history, which should come as no surprise since Marxist theory specifically encourages such actions due to the belief class is more unifying than culture and nation

Marxism doesn't 'destroy culture' unless you make a arbitrary distinction where culture 'starts' and 'stops.' The majority of Marxist critiques, in the vein of cultural hegemony, focus on the commodification of culture as well as the supremacy of one group over another.

The former is a critique which stretches back through generations of artists. In the modern era; (defined in the art world as generally from 1780 onward) Ruskin, Viollet-le-duc, Morris, Adolf Loos all adopted this point of view to some degree yet were responsible for unique outgrowths of 'culture' (through artistic movements) or protectors and preservationists of culture (Viollet-le-duc, primarily). This isn't even accounting for the various artistic movements of the 20th century which were inspired by Socialist / Marxian ideology (Arts and Crafts, Constructivism, to name two major ones). Even the International Style to some degree.

Posted: **Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:46 am**

Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana wrote:
Cordel One wrote:The main point of Marxism isn't anti-capitalist so much as it is anti-hierarchial and anti-oppressive. No matter how much of our language fascists steal they will never be anything like us.

Well obviously, fascism and Marxism have the opposite goals, and fascism is inherently based on the concept of hierarchy being necessary for stability and order, something that is supported by all of human history again

Not only has the "all of human history" bit has been repeatedly proven wrong, even your basic description of fascism makes it seem like a crap ideology.

Posted: **Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:58 am**

Cordel One wrote:
Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana wrote:Well obviously, fascism and Marxism have the opposite goals, and fascism is inherently based on the concept of hierarchy being necessary for stability and order, something that is supported by all of human history again

Not only has the "all of human history" bit has been repeatedly proven wrong, even your basic description of fascism makes it seem like a crap ideology.

because it spectacularly failed and caused a world war with a laundry list of atrocities.

Posted: **Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:59 am**

Cordel One wrote:
Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana wrote:Class exists, but the Marxist narrative holds class to be the primary instigator of all conflict. In contrast, fascist and fualangist theory holds culture and nation to be the primary instigators, and encourage class collaboration under a corporatist model. Both are opposed to unchained capitalism

The main point of Marxism isn't anti-capitalist so much as it is anti-hierarchial and anti-oppressive. No matter how much of our language fascists steal they will never be anything like us.

The main point of Marxism isn't anti-capitalism? What are you talking about?

Posted: **Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:01 am**

Stylan wrote:
Cordel One wrote:The main point of Marxism isn't anti-capitalist so much as it is anti-hierarchial and anti-oppressive. No matter how much of our language fascists steal they will never be anything like us.

The main point of Marxism isn't anti-capitalism? What are you talking about?

I'd say it's more about opposition to class hierarchies which crrently take the form of capitalism.

Posted: **Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:02 am**

Cordel One wrote:
Stylan wrote:The main point of Marxism isn't anti-capitalism? What are you talking about?

I'd say it's more about opposition to class hierarchies which crrently take the form of capitalism.

Sure, capitalism is the current form of class oppression, but because of that the main point of Marxism is the destruction of capitalism.

Posted: **Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:05 am**

Stylan wrote:
Cordel One wrote:I'd say it's more about opposition to class hierarchies which crrently take the form of capitalism.

Sure, capitalism is the current form of class oppression, but because of that the main point of Marxism is the destruction of capitalism.

Sure, but my point is there is a larger picture that RFSI was missing.

Posted: **Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:18 am**

Cordel One wrote:
Stylan wrote:Sure, capitalism is the current form of class oppression, but because of that the main point of Marxism is the destruction of capitalism.

Sure, but my point is there is a larger picture that RFSI was missing.

Thats the reason marxism and fascism are fundamentally opposite

Posted: **Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:19 am**

Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana wrote:
Cordel One wrote:Sure, but my point is there is a larger picture that RFSI was missing.

Thats the reason marxism and fascism are fundamentally opposite

And why fascism is cringe.

Posted: **Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:28 am**

Cordel One wrote:
Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana wrote:Thats the reason marxism and fascism are fundamentally opposite

And why fascism is cringe.

It has been far more successful than libertarian communism, if for no other reason than the failure of these communes to organize any kind of competent military

Posted: **Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:31 am**

Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana wrote:
Cordel One wrote:And why fascism is cringe.

It has been far more successful than libertarian communism, if for no other reason than the failure of these communes to organize any kind of competent military

far more successful at causing disasters.European countries that went fascist got their heads caved in, the only exception being Spain which was an odd sort of hybrid system which fell apart the moment Franco shuffled off anyway. Fascism thrives on conflict, and if it doesn't exist, it will create it. By it's own nature, it will inevitably burn itself out. LibSoc groups basically just want to be allowed to exist, and fight for self-preservation more than anything.

Posted: **Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:42 am**

Crysuko wrote:
Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana wrote:It has been far more successful than libertarian communism, if for no other reason than the failure of these communes to organize any kind of competent military

far more successful at causing disasters.European countries that went fascist got their heads caved in, the only exception being Spain which was an odd sort of hybrid system which fell apart the moment Franco shuffled off anyway. Fascism thrives on conflict, and if it doesn't exist, it will create it. By it's own nature, it will inevitably burn itself out. LibSoc groups basically just want to be allowed to exist, and fight for self-preservation more than anything.

Italy was thriving before the war, it was a bit of a backwards duck in Western Europe and under Mussolini, through authoritarian policies and corporatist reform, managed to industrialize almost to the extent of Britain and Germany

Posted: **Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:51 am**

Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana wrote:Italy was thriving before the war, it was a bit of a backwards duck in Western Europe and under Mussolini, through authoritarian policies and corporatist reform, managed to industrialize almost to the extent of Britain and Germany

And quality of the life for the average person did not increase; similarly to the situation of the German worker. Large 'unions' in bed with the state were hardly effective bargaining bodies and often firms could get away with a ton of underhanded shit because of the labyrinthine bureaucracy. Italy was better off than the circus that was the Nazi regime, sure but it trampled the average person under foot for industrial growth just the same.

Basically end up with a material reality worse than capitalism, because at least in a liberal democracy you have some ability to collectively bargain and oppose the state.

Posted: **Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:52 am**

Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana wrote:
Crysuko wrote:far more successful at causing disasters.European countries that went fascist got their heads caved in, the only exception being Spain which was an odd sort of hybrid system which fell apart the moment Franco shuffled off anyway. Fascism thrives on conflict, and if it doesn't exist, it will create it. By it's own nature, it will inevitably burn itself out. LibSoc groups basically just want to be allowed to exist, and fight for self-preservation more than anything.

Italy was thriving before the war, it was a bit of a backwards duck in Western Europe and under Mussolini, through authoritarian policies and corporatist reform, managed to industrialize almost to the extent of Britain and Germany

and through Mussolini's incompetence and bravado plunged the country into war, and was lynched by his own people. the italian army fought tooth and nail in the previous war, but was distinctly limp wristed in the second.

Posted: **Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:53 am**

Crysuko wrote:
Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana wrote:Italy was thriving before the war, it was a bit of a backwards duck in Western Europe and under Mussolini, through authoritarian policies and corporatist reform, managed to industrialize almost to the extent of Britain and Germany

and through Mussolini's incompetence and bravado plunged the country into war, and was lynched by his own people. the italian army fought tooth and nail in the previous war, but was distinctly limp wristed in the second.

Mussolini betrayed his ideology and country when he put German interests before Italian ones

Posted: **Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:53 am**

Crysuko wrote:Fascism thrives on conflict, and if it doesn't exist, it will create it. By it's own nature, it will inevitably burn itself out.

As I've said before, fascism is the ideology of rot. It can only thrive in an environment of reactionary aggrievement and political chaos - happy, healthy societies never turn fascist.

Posted: **Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:00 pm**

Great, I am being harassed by a communist, in an anti-communist region.

Anyhow, the reason I am no longer a communist is simple:
It's not because I wanted to be more mainstream, its because I started to see people justify things that can not be justified.
-Glorifying war despots such as Stalin and Kim Jong Ill.
-Justifying or denying their crimes and heir oppressive policies.
-An outright hatred against all forms of religion, usually accompanied with the desire to either ban all public worship and organized religion, hoping it with fade away, or the outright genocide of all clergy.

Posted: **Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:03 pm**

Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana wrote:
The Reformed American Republic wrote:I wouldn't go as far as to say that class identity is artificial but I get what you mean.

Class exists, but the Marxist narrative holds class to be the primary instigator of all conflict. In contrast, fascist and falangist theory holds culture and nation to be the primary instigators, and encourage class collaboration under a corporatist model. Both are opposed to unchained capitalism

I'm more egalitarian than that on social class. I'm against collaborating with the thieves whom crashed our economy in 2008 for example. They should be locked up.

Posted: **Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:07 pm**

The Reformed American Republic wrote:
Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana wrote:Class exists, but the Marxist narrative holds class to be the primary instigator of all conflict. In contrast, fascist and falangist theory holds culture and nation to be the primary instigators, and encourage class collaboration under a corporatist model. Both are opposed to unchained capitalism

I'm more egalitarian than that on social class. I'm against collaborating with the thieves whom crashed our economy in 2008 for example. They should be locked up.

In a corporatist model, the particular people who go against the interests of the state as an organ are prosecuted, so the people you mention, along with most of the big pharma and big tech leaders and execs

Posted: **Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:09 pm**

Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana wrote:
Cordel One wrote:And why fascism is cringe.

It has been far more successful than libertarian communism, if for no other reason than the failure of these communes to organize any kind of competent military

We've had a number of tiny communes take on entire countries and win. Remind me what happened under Mussolini's incompetent leadership?

Posted: **Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:14 pm**

Cordel One wrote:We've had a number of tiny communes take on entire countries and win.

Like…?

Cordel One wrote:Remind me what happened under Mussolini's incompetent leadership?

Italy went from a backwards state that stuck out like a sore thumb in Western Europe to industrialized, technologically at par with Germany and Britain. That was before Mussolini betrayed his ideology and country by putting German interests over Italian ones

Posted: **Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:24 pm**

Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana wrote:
The Reformed American Republic wrote:I'm more egalitarian than that on social class. I'm against collaborating with the thieves whom crashed our economy in 2008 for example. They should be locked up.

In a corporatist model, the particular people who go against the interests of the state as an organ are prosecuted, so the people you mention, along with most of the big pharma and big tech leaders and execs

and how, in your ideal system, would this be handled.

Posted: **Tue Dec 15, 2020 1:43 pm**

Crysuko wrote:
The Reformed American Republic wrote:

Bother to read any post I have made in the healthcare thread or most other threads and you'd find I support single payer nationalized healthcare. I'm not very capitalistic.

who are you trying to fool. you say you are, and yet fail to do any criticising at all, and have vehemently defended it and cried MUH WHATABOUTISM at every turn. stop lying, you're terrible at it.

Your entire argument is based on whataboutism though

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