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Anti-Socialism Thread

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Who is your favourite anti-socialist author?

Poll ended at Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:23 am

Milton Friedman
9
15%
Ludwig von Mises
3
5%
Thomas Sowell
6
10%
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
10
16%
Ayn Rand
9
15%
Friedrich Hayek
0
No votes
Irving Kristol
1
2%
Karl Popper
6
10%
Boris Pasternak
6
10%
Other
12
19%
 
Total votes : 62

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VlaRiSsiA
Envoy
 
Posts: 250
Founded: Oct 16, 2019
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby VlaRiSsiA » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:51 pm

Socialist here.

That said, I have a message to my fellow socialists ranting at their screen looking at this thread: Sorry if you are offended comrade, but this thread has every right to exist no matter if you agree or disagree with it. It’s a thing called freedom of expression and no entity should be able to restrict that. You can debate the topic of the thread, but please try not to be toxic. People should be able to say whatever they want so long it isn’t threatening the liberty or safety of others.

Now I’m just going to roll back and let everyone here discuss their political beliefs. Or maybe get sucked into a capitalism vs socialism debate against my will.
VlaRiSsiA is a schizo totalitarian shrekist regime created after the Great Ogrethrow in 2094. Has a massive WIP multi-nation lore. We don’t use most stats(our personal and political freedoms are negative 100 in canon)
Date: July, 2162
VlaRiSsiA is like an onion, it has L A Y E R S
ML, left wing nationalist, revisionist hater, bunker enjoyer, shitposter, my old posts in NSG are cringe
Glorious News: Our Omnipotent Supreme Leader with his glorious omniscience purges Comrade Pingu(who makes Stalin look like an anarchist) for being too anarchist.
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Cloud-Cuckoo-Land
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Posts: 15
Founded: Sep 27, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Cloud-Cuckoo-Land » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:52 pm

-Ra- wrote:Go to a homeless shelter or a soup kitchen. Many of these organizations are run by private individuals or firms, which is better than the government anyway.

North America could be like that, but other places have welfare programs for homeless and impoverished people. They are not perfect, obviously. But so are not private-run charities.

Also what AN nation said. Intellectual honesty is of highest value, regardless of what point is being made. The truth is a blind force which does not care for political consistency.
Last edited by Cloud-Cuckoo-Land on Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Kowani
Post Czar
 
Posts: 44642
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:52 pm

VlaRiSsiA wrote:Socialist here.

That said, I have a message to my fellow socialists ranting at their screen looking at this thread: Sorry if you are offended comrade, but this thread has every right to exist no matter if you agree or disagree with it. It’s a thing called freedom of expression and no entity should be able to restrict that. You can debate the topic of the thread, but please try not to be toxic. People should be able to say whatever they want so long it isn’t threatening the liberty or safety of others.

Now I’m just going to roll back and let everyone here discuss their political beliefs. Or maybe get sucked into a capitalism vs socialism debate against my will.

Interesting how you have "a message for your fellow socialists" yet it's directed at a position nobody took.
Hm yes this is not suspicious at all
"The Barons of England demanded the Security of Law for Themselves, the Patriots of America proclaimed the Security and Protection for All. All men are equal before the Law. No matter upon what spot of the Earth's surface they were born; no matter whether an Asiatic or African, a European or an American Sun first burned upon them; no matter whether citizens or strangers, no matter whether rich or poor, no matter whether wise or simple, no matter whether strong or weak, this new Magna Carta to Mankind declares the rights of All to Life and Liberty and Property are Equal Before the Law."

~Rep. John Bingham (R-OH)



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Matatic and The Principality of Surkis
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Posts: 23
Founded: Apr 20, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Matatic and The Principality of Surkis » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:53 pm

I can tell this will be a terrible thread with extreme stupidity from both sides, why'd you have to make this.
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Eurasies
Envoy
 
Posts: 315
Founded: Feb 23, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Eurasies » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:53 pm

VlaRiSsiA wrote:Socialist here.

That said, I have a message to my fellow socialists ranting at their screen looking at this thread: Sorry if you are offended comrade, but this thread has every right to exist no matter if you agree or disagree with it. It’s a thing called freedom of expression and no entity should be able to restrict that. You can debate the topic of the thread, but please try not to be toxic. People should be able to say whatever they want so long it isn’t threatening the liberty or safety of others.

Now I’m just going to roll back and let everyone here discuss their political beliefs. Or maybe get sucked into a capitalism vs socialism debate against my will.

I'm not a socialist, but well said friend
The Federal Republic of Eurasies
"Federation, Libereco & Capitalismo"


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VlaRiSsiA
Envoy
 
Posts: 250
Founded: Oct 16, 2019
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby VlaRiSsiA » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:54 pm

Kowani wrote:
VlaRiSsiA wrote:Socialist here.

That said, I have a message to my fellow socialists ranting at their screen looking at this thread: Sorry if you are offended comrade, but this thread has every right to exist no matter if you agree or disagree with it. It’s a thing called freedom of expression and no entity should be able to restrict that. You can debate the topic of the thread, but please try not to be toxic. People should be able to say whatever they want so long it isn’t threatening the liberty or safety of others.

Now I’m just going to roll back and let everyone here discuss their political beliefs. Or maybe get sucked into a capitalism vs socialism debate against my will.

Interesting how you have "a message for your fellow socialists" yet it's directed at a position nobody took.
Hm yes this is not suspicious at all
I’m directing my message to the inevitable swarm of toxic nations. It’s not happening yet, but always threads get jacked
VlaRiSsiA is a schizo totalitarian shrekist regime created after the Great Ogrethrow in 2094. Has a massive WIP multi-nation lore. We don’t use most stats(our personal and political freedoms are negative 100 in canon)
Date: July, 2162
VlaRiSsiA is like an onion, it has L A Y E R S
ML, left wing nationalist, revisionist hater, bunker enjoyer, shitposter, my old posts in NSG are cringe
Glorious News: Our Omnipotent Supreme Leader with his glorious omniscience purges Comrade Pingu(who makes Stalin look like an anarchist) for being too anarchist.
The Supreme Leader|Shrekism|Armed Forces|VlaRiSsiAn Labor Camps|Location|National Anthem of the Glorious Swampland!

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-Ra-
Diplomat
 
Posts: 980
Founded: Aug 09, 2020
Capitalizt

Postby -Ra- » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:54 pm

Cloud-Cuckoo-Land wrote:
-Ra- wrote:Go to a homeless shelter or a soup kitchen. Many of these organizations are run by private individuals or firms, which is better than the government anyway.

North America could be like that, but other places have welfare programs for homeless and impoverished people. They are not perfect, obviously. But so are not private-run charities.

I'm from the UK...

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Sanghyeok
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5035
Founded: Dec 29, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Sanghyeok » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:55 pm

Kowani wrote:
VlaRiSsiA wrote:Socialist here.

That said, I have a message to my fellow socialists ranting at their screen looking at this thread: Sorry if you are offended comrade, but this thread has every right to exist no matter if you agree or disagree with it. It’s a thing called freedom of expression and no entity should be able to restrict that. You can debate the topic of the thread, but please try not to be toxic. People should be able to say whatever they want so long it isn’t threatening the liberty or safety of others.

Now I’m just going to roll back and let everyone here discuss their political beliefs. Or maybe get sucked into a capitalism vs socialism debate against my will.

Interesting how you have "a message for your fellow socialists" yet it's directed at a position nobody took.
Hm yes this is not suspicious at all


They are a libertarian socialist from my conversations with them.
There is no need to friendly fire, comrade.
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Mini custard puddings
And fresh poured Darjeeling
Strawberry parfait so sweet and appealing,
Little soft plushies and baths in hot springs
These are a few of my favourite things

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All Wild Things
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 402
Founded: Apr 24, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby All Wild Things » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:56 pm

-Ra- wrote:
All Wild Things wrote:So how come it's ok for us all to share a road but not a gas pipeline?

And how come it's okay to provide universal healthcare, but not to provide healthy food that would reduce the need for that healthcare?

We kinda do already. Go to a homeless shelter or a soup kitchen. Many of these organizations are run by private individuals or firms, which is better than the government anyway.

And none of this has to do with the workers owning the means of production.

Sorry, but that's bullshit. Homeless shelters and soup kitchens are a far cry from providing healthy food and adequate shelter to every citizen. Any of these that are run by firms - who is paying for the firm?

Okay, I think I'm starting to get it. So socialism relates only to means of production. So the means of transportation (roads, gas pipes, broadband networks) can be owned either publicly or privately, and not affect whether a country is socialist or not.

We live in a very different century. If workers were to own the means of production, presumably they'd own a hell of a lot of PCs and servers. A lot of what is produced is weird stuff, like computer games, location data, and consumer preference data for advertising.
Browse The NewsStand
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Kowani
Post Czar
 
Posts: 44642
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:57 pm

VlaRiSsiA wrote:
Kowani wrote:Interesting how you have "a message for your fellow socialists" yet it's directed at a position nobody took.
Hm yes this is not suspicious at all
I’m directing my message to the inevitable swarm of toxic nations. It’s not happening yet, but always threads get jacked

You...don't spend a lot of time on NSG, do you.

Sanghyeok wrote:
Kowani wrote:Interesting how you have "a message for your fellow socialists" yet it's directed at a position nobody took.
Hm yes this is not suspicious at all


They are a libertarian socialist from my conversations with them.
There is no need to friendly fire, comrade.

It is not "friendly fire" when I point out that they're attacking socialists for a position taken by nobody.
"The Barons of England demanded the Security of Law for Themselves, the Patriots of America proclaimed the Security and Protection for All. All men are equal before the Law. No matter upon what spot of the Earth's surface they were born; no matter whether an Asiatic or African, a European or an American Sun first burned upon them; no matter whether citizens or strangers, no matter whether rich or poor, no matter whether wise or simple, no matter whether strong or weak, this new Magna Carta to Mankind declares the rights of All to Life and Liberty and Property are Equal Before the Law."

~Rep. John Bingham (R-OH)



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-Ra-
Diplomat
 
Posts: 980
Founded: Aug 09, 2020
Capitalizt

Postby -Ra- » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:57 pm

New haven america wrote:Capitalism: "Universal healthcare and social safety nets are evil because they steal money from the pockets of hard workers and socialism would never work because humans are inherently too selfish!"

Ok, so how do we deal with people who can't afford healthcare or food?

Capitalism: "IDFK. Charity or something?"

Nobody's saying that you have to get rid of universal healthcare and food. Markets are the best allocator of goods. That's a fact of economics and the reason why socialist countries fail. However, a certain amount of government intervention in the economy is good. So sometimes the government should step in, but for most cases it's unnecessary.

Quite ironic that healthcare and food tend to be the shittiest in socialist countries.

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Cloud-Cuckoo-Land
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 15
Founded: Sep 27, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Cloud-Cuckoo-Land » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:58 pm

-Ra- wrote:
Cloud-Cuckoo-Land wrote:North America could be like that, but other places have welfare programs for homeless and impoverished people. They are not perfect, obviously. But so are not private-run charities.

I'm from the UK...

US, Canada and UK are still only 3 countries matched up against approximately 190 other countries. Unless you can specifically vouch that all of the remaining countries have private-run charities which work as you are asserting, you aren't really making a point.

Also, giving people manufactured food is not the only way to hand out basic necessities to them. You can also give them raw resources, ready to be transported, which they will process into food on their own.
Last edited by Cloud-Cuckoo-Land on Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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-Ra-
Diplomat
 
Posts: 980
Founded: Aug 09, 2020
Capitalizt

Postby -Ra- » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:59 pm

Cloud-Cuckoo-Land wrote:
-Ra- wrote:I'm from the UK...

US, Canada and UK are still only 3 countries matched up against approximately 190 other countries. Unless you can specifically vouch that all of the remaining countries have private-run charities which work as you are asserting, you aren't really making a point.

Neither are you. It happens that the US, Canada and the UK are the most prosperous countries in the world. They're also capitalist in nature.

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The Marlborough
Minister
 
Posts: 2643
Founded: May 27, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby The Marlborough » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:00 pm

Cloud-Cuckoo-Land wrote:
-Ra- wrote:I'm from the UK...

US, Canada and UK are still only 3 countries matched up against approximately 190 other countries. Unless you can specifically vouch that all of the remaining countries have private-run charities which work as you are asserting, you aren't really making a point.

Both America and Canada have welfare, what are you on about.
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Kowani
Post Czar
 
Posts: 44642
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:00 pm

-Ra- wrote:
Cloud-Cuckoo-Land wrote:US, Canada and UK are still only 3 countries matched up against approximately 190 other countries. Unless you can specifically vouch that all of the remaining countries have private-run charities which work as you are asserting, you aren't really making a point.

Neither are you. It happens that the US, Canada and the UK are the most prosperous countries in the world. They're also capitalist in nature.

...Define "prosperity"
"The Barons of England demanded the Security of Law for Themselves, the Patriots of America proclaimed the Security and Protection for All. All men are equal before the Law. No matter upon what spot of the Earth's surface they were born; no matter whether an Asiatic or African, a European or an American Sun first burned upon them; no matter whether citizens or strangers, no matter whether rich or poor, no matter whether wise or simple, no matter whether strong or weak, this new Magna Carta to Mankind declares the rights of All to Life and Liberty and Property are Equal Before the Law."

~Rep. John Bingham (R-OH)



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New haven america
Post Czar
 
Posts: 43002
Founded: Oct 08, 2012
Left-Leaning College State

Postby New haven america » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:00 pm

-Ra- wrote:
New haven america wrote:Capitalism: "Universal healthcare and social safety nets are evil because they steal money from the pockets of hard workers and socialism would never work because humans are inherently too selfish!"

Ok, so how do we deal with people who can't afford healthcare or food?

Capitalism: "IDFK. Charity or something?"

1. Nobody's saying that you have to get rid of universal healthcare and food. 2. Markets are the best allocator of goods. 3. That's a fact of economics and the reason why socialist countries fail. However, a certain amount of government intervention in the economy is good. So sometimes the government should step in, but for most cases it's unnecessary.

Quite ironic that healthcare and food tend to be the shittiest in socialist countries.

1. Those are socialist policies and this is an anti-socialism thread, so...
2. They are not.
3. A capitalist system of resource management says its way is the best and everything else is wrong. Who could've guessed?
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Phaenix
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Founded: Jun 19, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Phaenix » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:01 pm

Does socialism still present a threat to the world? To your country? If by socialist, you meant the NSDAP, then yes. If by actual socialists, then no.
Should liberals and conservatives do more to square their differences and rally against socialist tides, wherever they may spring up? Nope. Socialism, if implement correctly by a strong government, would have more benefits than downsides. If anything, they should move to pass more socialistic bills.
At what point is armed resistance against socialism called for? Never. Unless, as stated before, the NSDAP reappears and marches on the capitol, armed resistance is never called for.
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The Marlborough
Minister
 
Posts: 2643
Founded: May 27, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby The Marlborough » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:02 pm

-Ra- wrote:
Cloud-Cuckoo-Land wrote:US, Canada and UK are still only 3 countries matched up against approximately 190 other countries. Unless you can specifically vouch that all of the remaining countries have private-run charities which work as you are asserting, you aren't really making a point.

Neither are you. It happens that the US, Canada and the UK are the most prosperous countries in the world. They're also capitalist in nature.

In terms of GDP(PPP) per capita the US is 10th, Canada 20th, and the UK 27th.
Last edited by The Marlborough on Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
How could the Irish potato famine happen if they were surrounded by fish?
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-Ra-
Diplomat
 
Posts: 980
Founded: Aug 09, 2020
Capitalizt

Postby -Ra- » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:03 pm

New haven america wrote:
-Ra- wrote:1. Nobody's saying that you have to get rid of universal healthcare and food. 2. Markets are the best allocator of goods. 3. That's a fact of economics and the reason why socialist countries fail. However, a certain amount of government intervention in the economy is good. So sometimes the government should step in, but for most cases it's unnecessary.

Quite ironic that healthcare and food tend to be the shittiest in socialist countries.

1. Those are socialist policies and this is an anti-socialism thread, so...
2. They are not.
3. A capitalist system of resource management says its way is the best and everything else is wrong. Who could've guessed?

1. They are not socialist policies. Kinda telling that you don't know what socialism is.
2. They are.
3. Economics is not capitalism. This is like saying that science prefers vaccines, therefore science is biased towards vaccines and against anti-vaxxers. Socialism is the anti-vaxx movement of economics.
Last edited by -Ra- on Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Cloud-Cuckoo-Land
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Founded: Sep 27, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Cloud-Cuckoo-Land » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:03 pm

-Ra- wrote:
Cloud-Cuckoo-Land wrote:US, Canada and UK are still only 3 countries matched up against approximately 190 other countries. Unless you can specifically vouch that all of the remaining countries have private-run charities which work as you are asserting, you aren't really making a point.

Neither are you. It happens that the US, Canada and the UK are the most prosperous countries in the world. They're also capitalist in nature.

Prosperity is not a highest priority, though. It is essential to have a working economy, sure, but sufficient is enough, or even better than superior, if other things are also taken into account. You can say prosperity is of highest importance to you and you have every right to do so. But most people don't really care about numbers but just the ability to live their life in peace. As long as an average person can manage, their economy can be inferior to some other country's economy.

You can live off 200K dollars annually. Just because someone else earns 300K does not automatically mean they are better in every single regard than you are. Stable 200K dollars in a healthy society is IMO better than 300K dollars in an oppressive, chaotic environment.

But hey, maybe that's what makes makes me into a socialist. My respect for people who want to choose either option, as long as they pick it themselves instead of asserting that their option should be embraced by everyone.
Last edited by Cloud-Cuckoo-Land on Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Phaenix
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 463
Founded: Jun 19, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Phaenix » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:04 pm

-Ra- wrote:
New haven america wrote:1. Those are socialist policies and this is an anti-socialism thread, so...
2. They are not.
3. A capitalist system of resource management says its way is the best and everything else is wrong. Who could've guessed?

1. They are not socialist policies.
2. They are.
3. Economics is not capitalism. This is like saying that science prefers vaccines, therefore science is biased towards vaccines and against anti-vaxxers. Socialism is the anti-vaxx movement of economics.

...But science does prefer vaccines. You just contradicted yourself in your own argument.
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PRO: Autocracy, secularism, socialism, meritocracy, freedom of speech
ANTI: Electoral College, Trump, Democrats, Republicans, Nazism, imperialism, libertarianism, communism, CCP

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Eurasies
Envoy
 
Posts: 315
Founded: Feb 23, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Eurasies » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:04 pm

Kowani wrote:
-Ra- wrote:Neither are you. It happens that the US, Canada and the UK are the most prosperous countries in the world. They're also capitalist in nature.

...Define "prosperity"

Higher quality of life, higher life expectancy, higher human development index, less corruption, strongest economies in the world, higher nominal GDP?
The Federal Republic of Eurasies
"Federation, Libereco & Capitalismo"


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Phaenix
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 463
Founded: Jun 19, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Phaenix » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:04 pm

Eurasies wrote:
Kowani wrote:...Define "prosperity"

Higher quality of life, higher life expectancy, higher human development index, less corruption, strongest economies in the world, higher nominal GDP?

Then that's not the US.
Roma Aeterna!

PRO: Autocracy, secularism, socialism, meritocracy, freedom of speech
ANTI: Electoral College, Trump, Democrats, Republicans, Nazism, imperialism, libertarianism, communism, CCP

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-Ra-
Diplomat
 
Posts: 980
Founded: Aug 09, 2020
Capitalizt

Postby -Ra- » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:06 pm

Cloud-Cuckoo-Land wrote:
-Ra- wrote:Neither are you. It happens that the US, Canada and the UK are the most prosperous countries in the world. They're also capitalist in nature.

Prosperity is not a highest priority, though. It is essential to have a working economy, sure, but sufficient is enough, or even better than superior, if other things are also taken into account. You can say prosperity is of highest importance to you and you have every right to do so. But most people don't really care about numbers but just the ability to live their life in peace. As long as an average person can manage, their economy can be inferior to some other country's economy.

You can live off 200K dollars annually. Just because someone else earns 300K does not automatically mean they are better in every single regard than you are.

Thankfully we live in a capitalist system that lets most people live their lives in peace. That's kind of the point. The people of Mao's China or Pol Pot's Cambodia didn't get to live their lives in peace. They were starved to death or hacked up by machetes in open fields.

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Eurasies
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Posts: 315
Founded: Feb 23, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Eurasies » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:06 pm

Phaenix wrote:
Eurasies wrote:Higher quality of life, higher life expectancy, higher human development index, less corruption, strongest economies in the world, higher nominal GDP?

Then that's not the US.

Canada, United Kingdom, Switzerland, Germany, Netherlands?
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