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Anti-Socialism Thread

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Who is your favourite anti-socialist author?

Poll ended at Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:23 am

Milton Friedman
9
15%
Ludwig von Mises
3
5%
Thomas Sowell
6
10%
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
10
16%
Ayn Rand
9
15%
Friedrich Hayek
0
No votes
Irving Kristol
1
2%
Karl Popper
6
10%
Boris Pasternak
6
10%
Other
12
19%
 
Total votes : 62

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Eurasies
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Founded: Feb 23, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Eurasies » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:29 pm

I think several of you have already seen that I am quite anti-socialist/anti-communist, so here are my answers

Does socialism still present a threat to the world? To your country? : I live in Venezuela, in just 20 years of socialism this country has gone into a tailspin, definitely yes, socialism must end throughout the world and Venezuela must soon recover the democracy and capitalism that once made us so prosperous

Should liberals and conservatives do more to square their differences and rally against socialist tides, wherever they may spring up? : Indeed, liberals and conservatives should unite to fight leftism together. The same applies to the Venezuelan Opposition, who must put aside their ideas if they are social democrats, liberals, Christians, conservatives, nationalists, let's unite to defeat socialism once and for all

At what point is armed resistance against socialism called for? : I have never approved violence, but this Narco communist regime seems that it will only leave Miraflores with violence

And remember friends, the worst pandemic in history is called socialism, which killed more people than the Black Death!
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-Ra-
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Capitalizt

Postby -Ra- » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:31 pm

All Wild Things wrote:"It's important to remember that socialism is not universal healthcare, public roads, free public education, taxes, unions, or "the government doing stuff." These are social policies, not socialist policies, and they are all perfectly compatible with capitalism."

What about publicly owned rail networks, electricity grids, gas pipelines, water and sewerage pipelines, telephone networks, broadband networks. They're all kind of like public roads aren't they? Are these all perfectly compatible with capitalism too?

If the government can choose to give universal healthcare and education, and still not be socialist, can they give out food too? Food is essential for staying healthy. As is exercise. Can we get universal gym memberships and still be capitalists?

"The government owning things" is not socialist per se, though it is certainly socialistic. Many socialists, for instance, would want universal healthcare, though universal healthcare is not a socialist value per se. Many countries like Norway or Sweden has extensive government ownership of certain industries. That doesn't change the fact that the majority of those countries' firms and producers are run and operated by private individuals for profit.

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New haven america
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Postby New haven america » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:32 pm

All Wild Things wrote:"It's important to remember that socialism is not universal healthcare, public roads, free public education, taxes, unions, or "the government doing stuff." These are social policies, not socialist policies, and they are all perfectly compatible with capitalism."

What about publicly owned rail networks, electricity grids, gas pipelines, water and sewerage pipelines, telephone networks, broadband networks. They're all kind of like public roads aren't they? Are these all perfectly compatible with capitalism too?

If the government can choose to give universal healthcare and education, and still not be socialist, can they give out food too? Food is essential for staying healthy. As is exercise. Can we get universal gym memberships and still be capitalists?

No, those are all socialist policies, having been envisioned during the times of the Industrial Revolution and 1920's-30's when the USSR was taking off.
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The Marlborough
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Postby The Marlborough » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:32 pm

Does socialism still present a threat to the world? To your country? No. Few people are calling for full blown common ownership of the means of production and they have no powerful state to back them further.
Should liberals and conservatives do more to square their differences and rally against socialist tides, wherever they may spring up? No. Liberalism, especially classical liberalism, gives rise to the forces and factors that make people want turn to socialism.
Last edited by The Marlborough on Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Minskiev
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Postby Minskiev » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:36 pm

The Marlborough wrote:Does socialism still present a threat to the world? To your country? No. Few people are calling for full blown common ownership of the means of production and they have no powerful state to back them further.
Should liberals and conservatives do more to square their differences and rally against socialist tides, wherever they may spring up? No. Liberalism, especially classical liberalism, gives rise to the forces and factors that make people want turn to socialism.


Excuse me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t the first communist-turned-Stalinist-reverted back to-socialist revolution trying to overthrow a monarchy, particularly the Russian absolutist one?

Also, liberalism gives rise to people who like the idea of socialism, because it has the actual freedom to think and have ideologies. Liberalism also may allow socialists to protest, but it is quite unlikely that it is liberalism that makes socialists revolt. Perhaps in the future the effects of liberalism may cause people to revolt, the effects likely being corporations or more specifically corporations with control over markets, but that is the fault of corporations, not an idea supporting the right to have a mixed market that leans free.

Anyways, I’m no McCarthy. But obviously socialism isn’t perfect. And communism seems perfect, but it’s just socialism with the same but bigger pros and the same but bigger cons. Flaws include lack of incentives; why should anyone do according to their ability when they get according to their need anyways? Socialism is also incredibly difficult to make efficient, unlike capitalism.
Last edited by Minskiev on Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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All Wild Things
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby All Wild Things » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:37 pm

New haven america wrote:
All Wild Things wrote:"It's important to remember that socialism is not universal healthcare, public roads, free public education, taxes, unions, or "the government doing stuff." These are social policies, not socialist policies, and they are all perfectly compatible with capitalism."

What about publicly owned rail networks, electricity grids, gas pipelines, water and sewerage pipelines, telephone networks, broadband networks. They're all kind of like public roads aren't they? Are these all perfectly compatible with capitalism too?

If the government can choose to give universal healthcare and education, and still not be socialist, can they give out food too? Food is essential for staying healthy. As is exercise. Can we get universal gym memberships and still be capitalists?

No, those are all socialist policies, having been envisioned during the times of the Industrial Revolution and 1920's-30's when the USSR was taking off.

So how come it's ok for us all to share a road but not a gas pipeline?

And how come it's okay to provide universal healthcare, but not to provide healthy food that would reduce the need for that healthcare?
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-Ra-
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Capitalizt

Postby -Ra- » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:39 pm

All Wild Things wrote:
New haven america wrote:No, those are all socialist policies, having been envisioned during the times of the Industrial Revolution and 1920's-30's when the USSR was taking off.

So how come it's ok for us all to share a road but not a gas pipeline?

And how come it's okay to provide universal healthcare, but not to provide healthy food that would reduce the need for that healthcare?

We kinda do already. Go to a homeless shelter or a soup kitchen. Many of these organizations are run by private individuals or firms, which is better than the government anyway.

And none of this has to do with the workers owning the means of production.
Last edited by -Ra- on Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Punished UMN
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Punished UMN » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:40 pm

Minskiev wrote:
The Marlborough wrote:Does socialism still present a threat to the world? To your country? No. Few people are calling for full blown common ownership of the means of production and they have no powerful state to back them further.
Should liberals and conservatives do more to square their differences and rally against socialist tides, wherever they may spring up? No. Liberalism, especially classical liberalism, gives rise to the forces and factors that make people want turn to socialism.


Excuse me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t the first communist-turned-Stalinist-reverted back to-socialist revolution trying to overthrow a monarchy, particularly the Russian absolutist one?

The Russian Empire had allowed capitalist and particularly classical liberal economic forces to run much of the economy, which heightened class contradictions. Lenin actually realized this and continued the revolution against the provisional government. The monarchy was an enemy of the Bolsheviks, but it arguably wasn't their primary ideological enemy.
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New haven america
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Postby New haven america » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:41 pm

All Wild Things wrote:
New haven america wrote:No, those are all socialist policies, having been envisioned during the times of the Industrial Revolution and 1920's-30's when the USSR was taking off.

1. So how come it's ok for us all to share a road but not a gas pipeline?

2. And how come it's okay to provide universal healthcare, but not to provide healthy food that would reduce the need for that healthcare?

1. It should be ok to do both.
2. ... You do know a lot of Western and Central Europe is really big on health food, right?
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Chan Island
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Chan Island » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:41 pm

Cringe and blueposted.

Looking forward to seeing this descend into madness.
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=513597&p=39401766#p39401766
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The Marlborough
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Postby The Marlborough » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:43 pm

Minskiev wrote:
The Marlborough wrote:Does socialism still present a threat to the world? To your country? No. Few people are calling for full blown common ownership of the means of production and they have no powerful state to back them further.
Should liberals and conservatives do more to square their differences and rally against socialist tides, wherever they may spring up? No. Liberalism, especially classical liberalism, gives rise to the forces and factors that make people want turn to socialism.


Excuse me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t the first communist-turned-Stalinist-reverted back to-socialist revolution trying to overthrow a monarchy, particularly the Russian absolutist one?

No.

Further socialism was born as a reaction to the deprivations faced by the working classes in early to mid 19th century Britain and France as a result of their treatment by the turbo-classical liberal capitalist bourgeoisie.
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Kowani
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:43 pm

-Ra- wrote:
All Wild Things wrote:So how come it's ok for us all to share a road but not a gas pipeline?

And how come it's okay to provide universal healthcare, but not to provide healthy food that would reduce the need for that healthcare?

We kinda do already. Go to a homeless shelter or a soup kitchen. Many of these organizations are run by private individuals or firms, which is better than the government anyway.

And none of this has to do with the workers owning the means of production.

Not at all. Private charity is inherently inefficient due to the mechanism of economies of scale. Government action is actually more effective at reducing poverty than charity could ever be.
Last edited by Kowani on Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"The Barons of England demanded the Security of Law for Themselves, the Patriots of America proclaimed the Security and Protection for All. All men are equal before the Law. No matter upon what spot of the Earth's surface they were born; no matter whether an Asiatic or African, a European or an American Sun first burned upon them; no matter whether citizens or strangers, no matter whether rich or poor, no matter whether wise or simple, no matter whether strong or weak, this new Magna Carta to Mankind declares the rights of All to Life and Liberty and Property are Equal Before the Law."

~Rep. John Bingham (R-OH)



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Eurasies
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Ex-Nation

Postby Eurasies » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:44 pm

Just as we pro-capitalism ruined the thread of Marxism, the pro-socialists are going to ruin this thread, nice
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Punished UMN
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Punished UMN » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:45 pm

Eurasies wrote:Just as we pro-capitalism ruined the thread of Marxism, the pro-socialists are going to ruin this thread, nice

I thought it was supposed to be the right that was opposed to safe spaces.
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New haven america
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Postby New haven america » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:46 pm

Capitalism: "Universal healthcare and social safety nets are evil because they steal money from the pockets of hard workers and socialism would never work because humans are inherently too selfish!"

Ok, so how do we deal with people who can't afford healthcare or food?

Capitalism: "IDFK. Charity or something?"
Last edited by New haven america on Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Albrenia
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Postby Albrenia » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:47 pm

Eurasies wrote:Just as we pro-capitalism ruined the thread of Marxism, the pro-socialists are going to ruin this thread, nice


It's the circle of life, my friend.

Although it is nice to see people on the right suddenly conceding that free healthcare, caring for the needy and education which doesn't subjugate people into debt are not, in fact, communism.

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Minskiev
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Minskiev » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:47 pm

Punished UMN wrote:
Minskiev wrote:
Excuse me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t the first communist-turned-Stalinist-reverted back to-socialist revolution trying to overthrow a monarchy, particularly the Russian absolutist one?

The Russian Empire had allowed capitalist and particularly classical liberal economic forces to run much of the economy, which heightened class contradictions. Lenin actually realized this and continued the revolution against the provisional government. The monarchy was an enemy of the Bolsheviks, but it arguably wasn't their primary ideological enemy.


Would the Russian Empire not be a traditional economy? Also, quickly googled ‘causes of Russian revolution’

• Widespread suffering under autocracy—a form of government in which one person, in this case the czar, has absolute power
• Weak leadership of Czar Nicholas II—clung to autocracy despite changing times
• Poor working conditions, low wages, and hazards of industrialization
• New revolutionary movements that believed a worker-run government should replace czarist rule
• Russian defeat in the Russo-Japanese War (1905), which led to rising unrest
• Bloody Sunday, the massacre of unarmed protestors outside the palace, in 1905
• Devastation of World War I—high casualties, economic ruin, widespread hunger
• The March Revolution in 1917, in which soldiers who were brought in for crowd control ultimately joined labor activists in calling “Down with the autocracy!”

Seems to be far more about the autocracy rather than the classic liberal imperial Russian corporations.

New haven america wrote:Capitalism: "Universal healthcare and social safety nets are evil because they steal money from the pockets of hard workers and socialism would never work because humans are inherently too selfish!"

Ok, so how do we deal with people who can't afford healthcare or food?

Capitalism: "IDFK. Charity or something?"


This seems kind of biased. You seem to think all non-socialists hate universal healthcare and social safety nets. I myself would love universal healthcare, but of course the taxes. Anyways, I don’t think taxation with representation is theft. Finally, yes. Socialism wouldn’t work, or at least very efficiently, due to the lack of incentive and the inherent inefficiency of the government trying to manage the economy by itself.

Then you poke fun at income inequality, which is strange because I’m pretty sure the Soviet officials were suspiciously better off than the rest of the population. And then you say charity, completely forgetting the fact that we’re not a fully market economy and that we do have social safety nets, and welfare, and homeless shelters. And a society that wants to close the wealth gaps.

Why am I taking this so seriously?
Last edited by Minskiev on Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Hulldom: At some point, authors without real end goals for what they want to do turn their resolutions into shitposting.
I have a goal of promoting democracy, equitable competition, and readiness. Sep focuses on conduct during war. IA on liberalization of the economy and society.
I have no freaking clue with Minsk.
Salem: i hope Walrus gets DOS in a year and the black walruses gets raided
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Moon: who gave a walrus RO powers
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The Marlborough
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Postby The Marlborough » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:47 pm

Punished UMN wrote:I thought it was supposed to be the right that was opposed to safe spaces.

Shapiroites have never been consistent in this regard.
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Kowani
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:47 pm

Punished UMN wrote:
Eurasies wrote:Just as we pro-capitalism ruined the thread of Marxism, the pro-socialists are going to ruin this thread, nice

I thought it was supposed to be the right that was opposed to safe spaces.

UMN, I never took you for a savage.
"The Barons of England demanded the Security of Law for Themselves, the Patriots of America proclaimed the Security and Protection for All. All men are equal before the Law. No matter upon what spot of the Earth's surface they were born; no matter whether an Asiatic or African, a European or an American Sun first burned upon them; no matter whether citizens or strangers, no matter whether rich or poor, no matter whether wise or simple, no matter whether strong or weak, this new Magna Carta to Mankind declares the rights of All to Life and Liberty and Property are Equal Before the Law."

~Rep. John Bingham (R-OH)



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Punished UMN
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Punished UMN » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:48 pm

Minskiev wrote:
Punished UMN wrote:The Russian Empire had allowed capitalist and particularly classical liberal economic forces to run much of the economy, which heightened class contradictions. Lenin actually realized this and continued the revolution against the provisional government. The monarchy was an enemy of the Bolsheviks, but it arguably wasn't their primary ideological enemy.


Would the Russian Empire not be a traditional economy? Also, quickly googled ‘causes of Russian revolution’

• Widespread suffering under autocracy—a form of government in which one person, in this case the czar, has absolute power
• Weak leadership of Czar Nicholas II—clung to autocracy despite changing times
• Poor working conditions, low wages, and hazards of industrialization
• New revolutionary movements that believed a worker-run government should replace czarist rule
• Russian defeat in the Russo-Japanese War (1905), which led to rising unrest
• Bloody Sunday, the massacre of unarmed protestors outside the palace, in 1905
• Devastation of World War I—high casualties, economic ruin, widespread hunger
• The March Revolution in 1917, in which soldiers who were brought in for crowd control ultimately joined labor activists in calling “Down with the autocracy!”

Seems to be far more about the autocracy rather than the classic liberal imperial Russian corporations.

There was no autocracy when the Bolshevik revolution happened.
Eastern Orthodox Christian. Prudish. Low-key bisexual. Purgatorial universalist.
Ascended beyond politics, now metapolitics is my best friend. Absolute pacifist. Proud member of the Napoleon Bonaparte fandom.
I have borderline personality disorder, if I overreact to something, try to approach me after the fact and I'll apologize.
The political compass is like hell: if you find yourself on it, keep going.
Pro: The fundamental dignitas of the human spirit as expressed through its self-actualization in theosis. Anti: Faustian-Demonic Space Anarcho-Capitalism with Italo-Futurist Characteristics

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Eurasies
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Founded: Feb 23, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Eurasies » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:48 pm

New haven america wrote:Capitalism: "Universal healthcare and social safety nets are evil because they steal money from the pockets of hard workers and socialism would never work because humans are inherently too selfish!"

Ok, so how do we deal with people who can't afford healthcare or food?

Capitalism: "IDFK. Charity or something?"

Well, as a liberal, I don't see that public health is a bad thing, in fact, it may be better for a country to have a mixed health system
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The Marlborough
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Ex-Nation

Postby The Marlborough » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:48 pm

"Quickly Googled the causes of the Russian Revolution". Bushmoi.
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Eurasies
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Ex-Nation

Postby Eurasies » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:49 pm

Albrenia wrote:
Eurasies wrote:Just as we pro-capitalism ruined the thread of Marxism, the pro-socialists are going to ruin this thread, nice


It's the circle of life, my friend.

Although it is nice to see people on the right suddenly conceding that free healthcare, caring for the needy and education which doesn't subjugate people into debt are not, in fact, communism.

Yeah, it's karma
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Sanghyeok
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Ex-Nation

Postby Sanghyeok » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:49 pm

Kowani wrote:
Punished UMN wrote:I thought it was supposed to be the right that was opposed to safe spaces.

UMN, I never took you for a savage.


Lol.
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Magical socialist paradise headed by an immortal, tea-loving and sometimes childish Chairwoman who happens to be the younger Ōmiya sister

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Kowani
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Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:50 pm

The Marlborough wrote:"Quickly Googled the causes of the Russian Revolution". Bushmoi.

The Wikipedia Warriors ride again!
"The Barons of England demanded the Security of Law for Themselves, the Patriots of America proclaimed the Security and Protection for All. All men are equal before the Law. No matter upon what spot of the Earth's surface they were born; no matter whether an Asiatic or African, a European or an American Sun first burned upon them; no matter whether citizens or strangers, no matter whether rich or poor, no matter whether wise or simple, no matter whether strong or weak, this new Magna Carta to Mankind declares the rights of All to Life and Liberty and Property are Equal Before the Law."

~Rep. John Bingham (R-OH)



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