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Anti-Socialism Thread

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Who is your favourite anti-socialist author?

Poll ended at Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:23 am

Milton Friedman
9
15%
Ludwig von Mises
3
5%
Thomas Sowell
6
10%
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
10
16%
Ayn Rand
9
15%
Friedrich Hayek
0
No votes
Irving Kristol
1
2%
Karl Popper
6
10%
Boris Pasternak
6
10%
Other
12
19%
 
Total votes : 62

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The Marlborough
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Founded: May 27, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby The Marlborough » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:18 pm

Eurasies wrote:
The Marlborough wrote:1) Top three countries according to GDP (PPP) per capita: Qatar, Singapore, Luxembourg
2) Life expectancy top three: Hong Kong, Japan, Singapore
3) Top three HDI: Norway, Switzerland, Ireland
4) Corruption: New Zealand, Denmark, Finland
5) GDP (PPP): China, USA, India
6) GDP nominal: US, China, Japan

You'll note the US only appears on the last two, which should be givens, and neither the UK nor Canada appear in any of them.

Qatar, Singapore, Luxembourg, Hong Kong, New Zealand are capitalists

What do you mean?

The original bar set was that specifically the UK, US, and Canada were the most prosperous.
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-Ra-
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Ex-Nation

Postby -Ra- » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:19 pm

New haven america wrote:1. It's not, but considering how uninformed you are about socialism I'm not surprised this is your take.
2. An entire department dedicated to saying "Capitalism is better because capitalism says so!"
3. Yep, it is. Even my economics and business professors have admitted it.

1. lol
2. An entire department dedicated to saying "vaccines are good because science says so!" Thank you for proving my point.
3. lol. High bar for evidence here.
Last edited by -Ra- on Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Kowani
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Posts: 44633
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:20 pm

-Ra- wrote:
Kowani wrote:The EU is not a single country, so we'll discard that. Unless you want to claim that living in Hungary is as good as living in Denmark, in which case, you can be safely ignored.
Anyway.
Quality of life winner: Denmark.
Life Expectancy Winner: Japan
Corruption Winner: New Zealand
I will admit I was wrong, the US does win on the most useless metric, Nominal GDP.

Would you like to try again?

And yet all of the countries you've cited are capitalist. New Zealand is the most business friendly country in the world. I don't really advocate for American style free marketeerism, but I am a stern capitalist, and I thank you for demonstrating that capitalism does indeed work mate.

1: Put those goalposts back
2: Most of the countries in the world are capitalist. It makes sense that most of the worlds large economies would be too.
3: The countries at the bottom of these lists are all capitalist. But somehow that's not taken into your little calculus.
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Phaenix
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Ex-Nation

Postby Phaenix » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:21 pm

-Ra- wrote:
New haven america wrote:1. It's not, but considering how uninformed you are about socialism I'm not surprised this is your take.
2. An entire department dedicated to saying "Capitalism is better because capitalism says so!"
3. Yep, it is. Even my economics and business professors have admitted it.

1. lol
2. An entire department dedicated to saying "vaccines are good because science says so!" Thank you for proving my point.
3. lol. High bar for evidence here.

1. The fuck does that even mean? You're proud you don't know enough about socialism to say it's bad?
2. Vaccines are good, but to be honest don't know what you're doing here.
3. It is a high bar, because a professor has studied this topic for years, while you're taking most of your info off of YouTube.
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The Marlborough
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Ex-Nation

Postby The Marlborough » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:21 pm

Most economic departments will have a few anti-capitalists in its midst or at least those vehemently opposed to laissez-faire capitalism fwiw.
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New haven america
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Left-Leaning College State

Postby New haven america » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:22 pm

-Ra- wrote:
New haven america wrote:1. It's not, but considering how uninformed you are about socialism I'm not surprised this is your take.
2. An entire department dedicated to saying "Capitalism is better because capitalism says so!"
3. Yep, it is. Even my economics and business professors have admitted it.

1. lol
2. An entire department dedicated to saying "vaccines are good because science says so!" Thank you for proving my point.
3. lol. High bar for evidence here.

1. Thank you for admitting your lack of knowledge in this subject.
2. False equivalency. All forms of biological based science can test vaccines and see that they work. Capitalism only has 1 means of testing to see if it works the best and it's a social science that was created by capitalists.
2. Better then whatever you bring to the table. ;)
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-Ra-
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Ex-Nation

Postby -Ra- » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:23 pm

Kowani wrote:
-Ra- wrote:And yet all of the countries you've cited are capitalist. New Zealand is the most business friendly country in the world. I don't really advocate for American style free marketeerism, but I am a stern capitalist, and I thank you for demonstrating that capitalism does indeed work mate.

1: Put those goalposts back
2: Most of the countries in the world are capitalist. It makes sense that most of the worlds large economies would be too.
3: The countries at the bottom of these lists are all capitalist. But somehow that's not taken into your little calculus.

1) Bruh
2) You're right. It does make sense that the most business-friendly countries are the most prosperous. Maybe we should be more business friendly...
3) The countries at the bottom have very illiberal economies with terrible prospects for investors. They all rank very low on the business-friendly index.

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Punished UMN
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Punished UMN » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:24 pm

Explain to me how the market is the most efficient allocator of goods.
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-Ra-
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Founded: Aug 09, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby -Ra- » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:25 pm

New haven america wrote:1. Thank you for admitting your lack of knowledge in this subject.
2. False equivalency. All forms of biological based science can test vaccines and see that they work. Capitalism only has 1 means of testing to see if it works the best and it's a social science that was created by capitalists.
2. Better then whatever you bring to the table. ;)

1) I think you've demonstrated enough that you don't know anything about socialism. So I think we've got that covered. :kiss:
2) [citation needed]
Vaccines are a science created by the evil reptilian overlords who want to give our kids autism guys!

3) It's better than mate :)

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Cloud-Cuckoo-Land
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Posts: 15
Founded: Sep 27, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Cloud-Cuckoo-Land » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:27 pm

-Ra- wrote:
Cloud-Cuckoo-Land wrote:You are purposefully picking the most extreme examples of governments which don't even necessarily have to be socialist. They only asserted themselves as socialist. North Korea also calls itself a democratic republic - is it one?

There was a capitalist country which oppressed some people just as much. It was called United States, way back in 1864 and before.
But using that example to prove that capitalism is inherently wrong and socialism is god is not going to be intellectually honest on my part. I am not going to play your game.

You're comparing apples to oranges. The US has done a lot of bad things in its history, but its policies did not result in the slaughter of one-third of its population or the deaths of up to 55 million people.

What is the difference between killing someone and overlooking the fact that people literally scrape off like rats or die from easily preventable diseases and/or drugs/crime while others drink champagne in the safety of their palaces? Pro forma, those deaths are not caused by the direct action of the government. But it is just semantics.

Also, I edited my post and included this statement, but you probably did not read it because you read it before I managed to put it in there, so I'll say this again:
You are not interested in holding an intellectually rigorous discourse. You cite the most extreme examples which don't even necessarily have to be socialist (unless we follow your definition which you assert without citing any sources - but it would invariably lead to calling any country you dislike "socialist") and you are also commiting a fallacy of mistaking the map for territory.

Thus, it is pretty obvious this thread was not created by you to challenge other people's views or have your views challenged. This is pretty much a gathering of people of all political convictions who will end up in self-indulgment. It just so happens the capitalist self-indulging person was here first.

Just some more noise in an endless sea of Internet nonsense.
Last edited by Cloud-Cuckoo-Land on Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Phaenix
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Posts: 463
Founded: Jun 19, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Phaenix » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:27 pm

-Ra- wrote:
New haven america wrote:1. Thank you for admitting your lack of knowledge in this subject.
2. False equivalency. All forms of biological based science can test vaccines and see that they work. Capitalism only has 1 means of testing to see if it works the best and it's a social science that was created by capitalists.
2. Better then whatever you bring to the table. ;)

1) I think you've demonstrated enough that you don't know anything about socialism. So I think we've got that covered. :kiss:
2) [citation needed]
Vaccines are a science created by the evil reptilian overlords who want to give our kids autism guys!

3) It's better than mate :)

1. If you can explain to me the basic tenants of socialism in a non-biased explanation, I'll stop rolling my eyes whenever you claim to be more knowledgeable than others.
2. Again, the fuck does this mean?
3. That's not an argument. For all we know, you get all this from QAnon.
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The Marlborough
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Founded: May 27, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby The Marlborough » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:28 pm

-Ra- wrote:
Kowani wrote:1: Put those goalposts back
2: Most of the countries in the world are capitalist. It makes sense that most of the worlds large economies would be too.
3: The countries at the bottom of these lists are all capitalist. But somehow that's not taken into your little calculus.

1) Bruh
2) You're right. It does make sense that the most business-friendly countries are the most prosperous. Maybe we should be more business friendly...
3) The countries at the bottom have very illiberal economies with terrible prospects for investors. They all rank very low on the business-friendly index.

The ones at the bottom of the list are those where the state barely exists or is incredibly weak and in more than one case going through a war. Kazakhstan has a very good ease of business score and is very much not a liberal economy.
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-Ra-
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Ex-Nation

Postby -Ra- » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:29 pm

Phaenix wrote:1. If you can explain to me the basic tenants of socialism in a non-biased explanation, I'll stop rolling my eyes whenever you claim to be more knowledgeable than others.
2. Again, the fuck does this mean?
3. That's not an argument. For all we know, you get all this from QAnon.

The point is that it's kind of funny how the left accuses the right of denying science, as the left denies science itself.
Last edited by -Ra- on Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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The Marlborough
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Ex-Nation

Postby The Marlborough » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:29 pm

Kazakhstan allows your business to operate with greater ease than it would in Japan.*


*Right after you've bribed numerous bureaucrats and installed some of their family members within the company.
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The Greater Ohio Valley
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Founded: Jan 19, 2013
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The Greater Ohio Valley » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:29 pm

-Ra- wrote:You cannot strip people of their right to property and still call yourself a democracy.

Democracy isn’t predicated on whether private ownership of the means of production exists.

-Ra- wrote: This is of course not to mention that all socialist regimes have been authoritarian hellholes

Completely ignoring the Latin American military juntas that overthrew democratically elected left-wing governments with American help to “save” capitalism and stop the “ebil commies” and led to those countries becoming oppressive authoritarian hellholes that killed and tortured people for decades until people got fed up with that shit.

-Ra- wrote:whose economic plans have wreaked incalculable havoc upon the world and resulted in millions of people's needless deaths.

Dude, capitalism is literally going to cause the collapse of modern human civilizations and the death of hundreds of millions because mitigating climate change hurts profits too much.

-Ra- wrote:
  1. Does socialism still present a threat to the world? To your country?

No
-Ra- wrote:
  • Should liberals and conservatives do more to square their differences and rally against socialist tides, wherever they may spring up?

  • No
    -Ra- wrote:
  • At what point is armed resistance against socialism called for?

  • Never.
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    Phaenix
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    Ex-Nation

    Postby Phaenix » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:29 pm

    -Ra- wrote:
    Phaenix wrote:1. If you can explain to me the basic tenants of socialism in a non-biased explanation, I'll stop rolling my eyes whenever you claim to be more knowledgeable than others.
    2. Again, the fuck does this mean?
    3. That's not an argument. For all we know, you get all this from QAnon.

    The point is that it's kind of funny how the left accuses the right of denying science, right as the left denies science.

    The "left," as you say, does not deny science. The right is the one that does. All you have to do is look at the Oval Office to see this.
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    Eurasies
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    Ex-Nation

    Postby Eurasies » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:29 pm

    The Marlborough wrote:
    Eurasies wrote:Qatar, Singapore, Luxembourg, Hong Kong, New Zealand are capitalists

    What do you mean?

    The original bar set was that specifically the UK, US, and Canada were the most prosperous.

    They don't top the charts, but they're still very close to the top
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    New haven america
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    Left-Leaning College State

    Postby New haven america » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:30 pm

    -Ra- wrote:
    New haven america wrote:1. Thank you for admitting your lack of knowledge in this subject.
    2. False equivalency. All forms of biological based science can test vaccines and see that they work. Capitalism only has 1 means of testing to see if it works the best and it's a social science that was created by capitalists.
    2. Better then whatever you bring to the table. ;)

    1) I think you've demonstrated enough that you don't know anything about socialism. So I think we've got that covered. :kiss:
    2) [citation needed]
    Vaccines are a science created by the evil reptilian overlords who want to give our kids autism guys!

    3) It's better than mate :)

    1. I'm guessing you made this entire thread just so you could use that comeback, and it's not even that good.
    2. Again, thank you for showing the level of absurdity present with your false equivalency.
    3. I put that there purposefully. You know someone's argument is failing when all they can do is start nitpicking things like spelling.

    Congratulations, you fell right for it!
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    Kowani
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    Democratic Socialists

    Postby Kowani » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:30 pm

    -Ra- wrote:
    Kowani wrote:1: Put those goalposts back
    2: Most of the countries in the world are capitalist. It makes sense that most of the worlds large economies would be too.
    3: The countries at the bottom of these lists are all capitalist. But somehow that's not taken into your little calculus.

    1) Bruh

    You: "The most prosperous countries in the world are the US, Canada, and the UK"
    Me: "Actually, that's not true"
    You: "But they're all capitalist, checkmate, socialists"
    Did you think we wouldn't notice your backpedaling?
    2) You're right. It does make sense that the most business-friendly countries are the most prosperous. Maybe we should be more business friendly...
    I've never seen anyone miss the point that badly.
    3) The countries at the bottom have very illiberal economies with terrible prospects for investors. They all rank very low on the business-friendly index.

    With the exceptions of syria and maybe South Sudan, this is not true at all. It just so happens that the interests of investors and interests of the general populace are not aligned.
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    The New California Republic
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    Civil Rights Lovefest

    Postby The New California Republic » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:30 pm

    The New California Republic wrote:
    -Ra- wrote:But we know that socialism has an aversion to data and scientific reason

    Lol wut.

    But seriously ra, you should read some Alec Nove and some other economists, as one of the reasons they give for the failure of some systems of central planning is that they had collected too much data, it outstripped any possible attempt to properly analyse it and act upon it. The only way the data could be acted upon was in the most aggregated terms, because the disaggregated data that was collected was truly gargantuan in scope and scale. That doesn't make it look like Socialists have an "aversion to data"; quite the contrary actually...
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    Major-Tom
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    Left-wing Utopia

    Postby Major-Tom » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:32 pm

    I am largely against socialism, but this thread portends that socialism is our most calamitous threat, and I just don't think that's the case. People on the internet and on Twitter, sure, might make it seem that socialism is immensely popular, but it's really not. Watered down social democracy? Sure, popular in many places. An idea of "democratic socialism" that is also just social democracy? Sure, also popular.

    But outside of internet echo chambers, most people in the West still reject the idea of a command or state-run economy, and additionally, I would contend that our biggest political threat is authoritarianism as a whole, as a blanket ideology, and the growing radicalization of Americans and Westerners. But not socialists on the internet.

    I think, Ra, you might find better luck getting your viewpoints across if your posts don't solely exist to harp on the same hackneyed argument. Speaking for myself, as someone who prefers a mixed-market capitalist model, I still find myself scoffing at your understanding of what the left is and this fabricated danger you've wrapped around it.
    Last edited by Major-Tom on Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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    -Ra-
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    Ex-Nation

    Postby -Ra- » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:36 pm

    Kowani wrote:
    -Ra- wrote:1) Bruh

    You: "The most prosperous countries in the world are the US, Canada, and the UK"
    Me: "Actually, that's not true"
    You: "But they're all capitalist, checkmate, socialists"

    The topic of discussion here was socialism, not what country is the best. You mentioned that many countries had it better than the US. I said that that was true, but all of these countries are socialist anyway. You shifted the goalposts first. By listing out the most popular countries you've literally proved my point that capitalism is inherently the best economic system, since all of the countries you listed bar one are capitalist.

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    Kowani
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    Democratic Socialists

    Postby Kowani » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:36 pm

    Eurasies wrote:
    The Marlborough wrote:The original bar set was that specifically the UK, US, and Canada were the most prosperous.

    They don't top the charts, but they're still very close to the top

    Not really.
    QOL: US-15, UK-19 Canada-21.
    Life Expectancy: Canada-15, UK-27, US- 37
    Corruption: US-23, Canada-12, UK-12
    Only in nominal GDP are they all in the top 10.

    And the remember who's being measured. Having a higher quality of life than Uruguay is not really a thing to be proud of.
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    Farnhamia
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    Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

    Postby Farnhamia » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:37 pm

    Pepsi Co wrote:I say we should replace the government with corporations, abolish the minimum wage, ban those socialist run charities and soup kitchens, and exile every registered democrat and the unemployed to internment camps in New Mexico to die of heat stroke. With all the pinkos and their ideology dead we'll enter a capitalist golden age!

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    Kowani
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    Democratic Socialists

    Postby Kowani » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:39 pm

    -Ra- wrote:
    Kowani wrote:You: "The most prosperous countries in the world are the US, Canada, and the UK"
    Me: "Actually, that's not true"
    You: "But they're all capitalist, checkmate, socialists"

    The topic of discussion here was socialism, not what country is the best. You mentioned that many countries had it better than the US. I said that that was true, but all of these countries are socialist anyway. You shifted the goalposts first. By listing out the most popular countries you've literally proved my point that capitalism is inherently the best economic system, since all of the countries you listed bar one are capitalist.

    Note how you entirely dropped the point about how the worst countries are all capitalist (we'll be nice and cut out the ones in a war).By your own horrible and simplistic understanding, notwithstanding the fact that you don't seem to understand how those countries became wealthy in the first place, that would debunk your argument.
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