Anti-Socialism Thread

[Cordel One]

The US will spend billions of dollars destroying other countries, then ask why that country got destroyed if the ideology works.

[Grill Pill]

Laughably false statement made by someone who clearly has no idea what they are talking about. It isn't literally a basket case. It has its problems, but it is in a much better standing fiscally and monetarily than the socialist paradise of Bolivia.

"It has its problems" is a fancy way of saying it has a complete economic meltdown every few years. That's not exactly the mark of a good system.

Honestly I'm pretty fucking grill pilled but yeah Argentina melts down every few years. I suggest a more successful capitalist nation in Latin America like Mexico.

[-Ra-]

Laughably false statement made by someone who clearly has no idea what they are talking about. It isn't literally a basket case. It has its problems, but it is in a much better standing fiscally and monetarily than the socialist paradise of Bolivia.

"It has its problems" is a fancy way of saying it has a complete economic meltdown every few years. That's not exactly the mark of a good system.

That's not really what's been having, though. It has had issues, mostly due to government spending much more than it can afford to, and these issues were exacerbated by the pandemic. Argentina's worst days are better than Bolivia's best, and by a good margin.

Bad times happen under capitalism. Bad times happen all the time, every time under socialism I'm afraid.

[Senkaku]

Argentina is a literal economic basket case what are you talking about lol

Laughably false statement made by someone who clearly has no idea what they are talking about. It isn't literally a basket case. It has its problems, but it is in a much better standing fiscally and monetarily than the socialist paradise of Bolivia.

The Argentine peso completely melted down two years ago. Argentina has been on shaky economic ground for decades, had a massive depression around the turn of the millennium, and its growth is anemic even in good times.

[Picairn]

Can we agree people who call a failing country having an ideology like "not real X" just serves as backing to them not having good points?

How comical that both sides now use that.

[Rusozak]

At the time America built the White House, 18% of the US population were literal slaves.

Does this prove anything?

That it's hypocritical to judge another nation's economic system by how well the leadership lives while other citizens suffer?

[Stylan]

"It has its problems" is a fancy way of saying it has a complete economic meltdown every few years. That's not exactly the mark of a good system.

That's not really what's been having, though. It has had issues, mostly due to government spending much more than it can afford to, and these issues were exacerbated by the pandemic. Argentina's worst days are better than Bolivia's best, and by a good margin.

Bad times happen under capitalism. Bad times happen all the time, every time under socialism I'm afraid.

Then how come the USSR had the 25th highest HDI in the world? How come Cuba has a higher life expetancy than the US? How come China has destroyed poverty? How come, when adjusted for level of economic development, socialist countries had a higher quality of life than capitalist countries? How come Cuba has better literacy than the US? Why has Cuba eliminated hunger and poverty?

[Senkaku]

"It has its problems" is a fancy way of saying it has a complete economic meltdown every few years. That's not exactly the mark of a good system.

That's not really what's been having, though. It has had issues, mostly due to government spending much more than it can afford to, and these issues were exacerbated by the pandemic. Argentina's worst days are better than Bolivia's best, and by a good margin.

Spoken like someone totally unfamiliar with Argentina's worst days.

Bad times happen under capitalism. Bad times happen all the time, every time under socialism I'm afraid.

Bolivia has consistently posted growth in the 4% range since Evo was elected, versus Argentina's insane seesawing that sometimes sees their economy contract by 10% in a year, so I'm not sure why this is the hill you're choosing to die on.

[-Ra-]

Does this prove anything?

That it's hypocritical to judge another nation's economic system by how well the leadership lives while other citizens suffer?

Perhaps not the best to draw a comparison to the late 18th century when we are talking about the 21st century?

[Senkaku]

That it's hypocritical to judge another nation's economic system by how well the leadership lives while other citizens suffer?

Perhaps not the best to draw a comparison to the late 18th century when we are talking about the 21st century?

Why is it unreasonable to compare two developing agrarian nations with considerable portions of their population below the poverty line, simply because they don't exist at the same time? History is full of useful examples for the present, if we're willing to learn.

[Duvniask]

Yugoslavia is gone

Because of rampant ethnic tensions, not its economic system.

The >1000% hyperinflation didn't help either.

[Wink Wonk We Like Stonks]

At the time America built the White House, 18% of the US population were literal slaves.

Does this prove anything?

it's proof that America built the extravagant white house while poor residents (namely, slaves) suffered

[Cordel One]

"It has its problems" is a fancy way of saying it has a complete economic meltdown every few years. That's not exactly the mark of a good system.

That's not really what's been having, though. It has had issues, mostly due to government spending much more than it can afford to, and these issues were exacerbated by the pandemic. Argentina's worst days are better than Bolivia's best, and by a good margin.

Bad times happen under capitalism. Bad times happen all the time, every time under socialism I'm afraid.

Bad things generally happen when you're attacked by multiple capitalist countries including a superpower.

[Exalted Inquellian State]

Can we agree people who call a failing country having an ideology like "not real X" just serves as backing to them not having good points?

How comical that both sides now use that.

It's saddening. Admit your economic system doesn't always work, or you'll end up like feudalism. If you're a socialist, try to emulate in your ideas the functions of san marino and bolivia I guess, or take out the bad parts of the other socialist experiments. If you're a capitalist, try to emulate Sweden or Switzerland or take the bad parts out of other capitalist nations(like the German Empire, who's only problem was being imperialist and letting corporations rule their colonies).

[-Ra-]

That's not really what's been having, though. It has had issues, mostly due to government spending much more than it can afford to, and these issues were exacerbated by the pandemic. Argentina's worst days are better than Bolivia's best, and by a good margin.

Spoken like someone totally unfamiliar with Argentina's worst days.

Spoken like someone totally unfamiliar with Bolivia's worst days, or that of any socialist regime really.

Bolivia has consistently posted growth in the 4% range since Evo was elected, versus Argentina's insane seesawing that sometimes sees their economy contract by 10% in a year, so I'm not sure why this is the hill you're choosing to die on.

What I am dying at is laughing at your false equivalence. Lower GDP countries on average post higher growth margins that do their higher GDP friends. And anyway, it doesn't matter for shit, since despite posting less favorable numbers Argentina and Chile (which also saw a growth rate of 4%) are wealthier and enjoy a much higher standard of living than do the people of Bolivia.

Also, wasn't it you people who were saying that economic growth in numbers wasn't the point, since that wasn't what Evo was trying to do. As it turns out, you don't actually have consistent policy positions. Who knew?

[Stylan]

Spoken like someone totally unfamiliar with Argentina's worst days.

Spoken like someone totally unfamiliar with Bolivia's worst days, or that of any socialist regime really.

Bolivia has consistently posted growth in the 4% range since Evo was elected, versus Argentina's insane seesawing that sometimes sees their economy contract by 10% in a year, so I'm not sure why this is the hill you're choosing to die on.

What I am dying at is laughing at your false equivalence. Lower GDP countries on average post higher growth margins that do their higher GDP friends. And anyway, it doesn't matter for shit, since despite posting less favorable numbers Argentina and Chile (which also saw a growth rate of 4%) are wealthier and enjoy a much higher standard of living than do the people of Bolivia.

Bolivia and Venezeula are not socialist nations. Also:

How come the USSR had the 25th highest HDI in the world? How come Cuba has a higher life expetancy than the US? How come China has destroyed poverty? How come, when adjusted for level of economic development, socialist countries had a higher quality of life than capitalist countries? How come Cuba has better literacy than the US? Why has Cuba eliminated hunger and poverty?

[Senkaku]

How comical that both sides now use that.

It's saddening. Admit your economic system doesn't always work, or you'll end up like feudalism. If you're a socialist, try to emulate in your ideas the functions of san marino and bolivia I guess, or take out the bad parts of the other socialist experiments. If you're a capitalist, try to emulate Sweden or Switzerland or take the bad parts out of other capitalist nations(like the German Empire, who's only problem was being imperialist and letting corporations rule their colonies).

...that's literally what people are doing when they say "Y country is not an example of real X." They're saying they don't view Y as a good model to follow, and view its system as distinct from their proposal/beliefs, which are represented by X. Yes, "not real X" can be tiresome given how frequently it's lobbed around by everyone, but it does actually have some validity if someone is trying to elucidate what exactly it is that they believe in (and if their listener is actually interested in learning what that is).

[Kexholm Karelia]

How comical that both sides now use that.

It's saddening. Admit your economic system doesn't always work, or you'll end up like feudalism. If you're a socialist, try to emulate in your ideas the functions of san marino and bolivia I guess, or take out the bad parts of the other socialist experiments. If you're a capitalist, try to emulate Sweden or Switzerland or take the bad parts out of other capitalist nations(like the German Empire, who's only problem was being imperialist and letting corporations rule their colonies).

>Switzerland
>Socialist

Bruh

[-Ra-]

Spoken like someone totally unfamiliar with Bolivia's worst days, or that of any socialist regime really.


What I am dying at is laughing at your false equivalence. Lower GDP countries on average post higher growth margins that do their higher GDP friends. And anyway, it doesn't matter for shit, since despite posting less favorable numbers Argentina and Chile (which also saw a growth rate of 4%) are wealthier and enjoy a much higher standard of living than do the people of Bolivia.

Bolivia and Venezeula are not socialist nations. Also:

How come the USSR had the 25th highest HDI in the world? How come Cuba has a higher life expetancy than the US? How come China has destroyed poverty? How come, when adjusted for level of economic development, socialist countries had a higher quality of life than capitalist countries? How come Cuba has better literacy than the US? Why has Cuba eliminated hunger and poverty?

The Soviet Union only started doing good after it opened up its economy and liberalized its social policies. Not to mention the fact that the Soviet Union was in a terrible state in terms of its economy and could not keep up with capitalist economies, which is why it collapsed. Thank you for literally proving my point that liberalizing your economy works.

[Wink Wonk We Like Stonks]

ra's the type to run on a republican platform, and once he gets in office reveal that he's a far-leftist ready to abolish the state

[Wink Wonk We Like Stonks]

Bolivia and Venezeula are not socialist nations. Also:

How come the USSR had the 25th highest HDI in the world? How come Cuba has a higher life expetancy than the US? How come China has destroyed poverty? How come, when adjusted for level of economic development, socialist countries had a higher quality of life than capitalist countries? How come Cuba has better literacy than the US? Why has Cuba eliminated hunger and poverty?

The Soviet Union only started doing good after it opened up its economy and liberalized its social policies. Not to mention the fact that the Soviet Union was in a terrible state in terms of its economy and could not keep up with capitalist economies, which is why it collapsed. Thank you for literally proving my point that liberalizing your economy works.

so you're saying you're a liberal?

[-Ra-]

ra's the type to run on a republican platform, and once he gets in office reveal that he's a far-leftist ready to abolish the state

I'VE BEEN DISCOVERED!!

[-Ra-]

The Soviet Union only started doing good after it opened up its economy and liberalized its social policies. Not to mention the fact that the Soviet Union was in a terrible state in terms of its economy and could not keep up with capitalist economies, which is why it collapsed. Thank you for literally proving my point that liberalizing your economy works.

so you're saying you're a liberal?

A liberal-conservative, so I lie on that spectrum.

[Wink Wonk We Like Stonks]

so you're saying you're a liberal?

A liberal-conservative, so I lie on that spectrum.

sounds like an oxymoron, but ok

[Senkaku]

Spoken like someone totally unfamiliar with Argentina's worst days.

Spoken like someone totally unfamiliar with Bolivia's worst days, or that of any socialist regime really.

Bolivia has consistently posted growth in the 4% range since Evo was elected, versus Argentina's insane seesawing that sometimes sees their economy contract by 10% in a year, so I'm not sure why this is the hill you're choosing to die on.

What I am dying at is laughing at your false equivalence. Lower GDP countries on average post higher growth margins that do their higher GDP friends.

Most high GDP countries, capitalist or otherwise, do not experience the kind of volatility and routine, intense contractions seen in Argentina. It is literally a textbook case of a mismanaged economy and shorthand for bungled fiscal policy the world over.

And anyway, it doesn't matter for shit, since despite posting less favorable numbers Argentina and Chile (which also saw a growth rate of 4%)

All this actually shows us is that commodity-based economies like Bolivia (lithium) and Chile (copper) can produce strong growth given favorable global market conditions.

are wealthier and enjoy a much higher standard of living than do the people of Bolivia.

A great deal of which is due to historical factors that are not relevant to a debate over MAS's economic record since Evo took power in '06-- as I said earlier, Argentina was already one of the world's wealthiest countries at the turn of the 20th century. If we're going to be considering the entire scope of history, our analysis of why Bolivia didn't see much growth for a good chunk of the post-independence period will have to be more complicated than "socialism!", and we'll also have to look at why Argentina fell behind the other advanced economies.

Also, wasn't it you people who were saying that economic growth in numbers wasn't the point, since that wasn't what Evo was trying to do. As it turns out, you don't actually have consistent policy positions. Who knew?

We are not a hivemind. I happen to think GDP numbers are a useful heuristic, though not necessarily the only one deserving consideration. Why don't you try and keep track of who you're talking to, rather than flying off the handle at unrelated people as if they were a collective organism?