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Anti-Socialism Thread

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The New California Republic
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 29431
Founded: Jun 06, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:15 am

Kubra wrote:Eyy fam is this the new LWDT

It's turning into that by default yes, likely much to the chagrin of the OP themselves given their position...
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

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UniversalCommons
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Founded: Jan 24, 2016
Left-Leaning College State

Postby UniversalCommons » Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:24 am

A lot of working people are against leftism because many of the highly educated managerial class support ideas on the left that are antithetical to their well being. This includes things like open borders which allows lots of immigrants into a country irregardless of their skills, causing large losses in wages for the working class. There are also ideas about trade liberalization which can be viewed as either left or right which allows the flow of corporations out of the country into places where wages are lower.

Unfortunately, offshoring has not stopped under liberal governments. Populists appeal to many of the working class because they will reduce the amount of immigrants, create tariffs protecting jobs, and not claim that the only way to improve your life is to get an education. Many of the working class do not want the college education that is pushed on them. There is often a demeaning of trade skills like construction, carpentry, and other skills on the left. Not enough is done for the trades.

Many see government as antithetical to their interest. They will get higher taxes and interference in their life. They are not on social services or the dole and increasing welfare won't help them. They want better services and the ability to easily create new business for them. Their future is not a college education, but owning a bakery, being a tradesman, or serving in the army. These people are not having their needs met by the left. The left fails to invest for the small shopkeeper, the tradesman, and it leaves them open to the right because it is easier to get a business loan and have lower taxes on the right.

Also recently, those on the left have done little to support unions. The minimum wage is not a union or organized trade. The focus on minimum wage jobs does not create better jobs for people. It generates higher wages for customer service jobs and other jobs as servants basically for the elite.

Socialism and government is viewed by many working people as not in their interest.

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Kubra
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Posts: 12954
Founded: Apr 15, 2006
Libertarian Police State

Postby Kubra » Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:29 am

Nevertopia wrote:
Cordel One wrote:Marx: The capitalist version of colonialism is progress toward communism. Capitalism is bad, but we can make a post-capitalist society without exploitation.

You: Huh, he must be saying colonialism is good, actually, because it fulfills his political objections.


Yes because he wants it to prove communism can work. Don't you realize thats what hes talking about when colonialism is progress toward communism?
I know I shouldn't be dredging up old posts but man it's amazing how much folks can discuss but working under false premises.
“Atomic war is inevitable. It will destroy half of humanity: it is going to destroy immense human riches. It is very possible. The atomic war is going to provoke a true inferno on Earth. But it will not impede Communism.”
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Kubra
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Libertarian Police State

Postby Kubra » Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:32 am

UniversalCommons wrote:Many see government as antithetical to their interest. They will get higher taxes and interference in their life. They are not on social services or the dole and increasing welfare won't help them. They want better services and the ability to easily create new business for them. Their future is not a college education, but owning a bakery, being a tradesman, or serving in the army.
wait a git dang moment
“Atomic war is inevitable. It will destroy half of humanity: it is going to destroy immense human riches. It is very possible. The atomic war is going to provoke a true inferno on Earth. But it will not impede Communism.”
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Honeydewistania
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Founded: Jun 09, 2017
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Honeydewistania » Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:32 am

Eat the Rich
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Duvniask
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Duvniask » Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:51 am

Kubra wrote:
UniversalCommons wrote:Many see government as antithetical to their interest. They will get higher taxes and interference in their life. They are not on social services or the dole and increasing welfare won't help them. They want better services and the ability to easily create new business for them. Their future is not a college education, but owning a bakery, being a tradesman, or serving in the army.
wait a git dang moment

Real PMC hours, who up.

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Estanglia
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Estanglia » Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:53 am

-Ra- wrote:The biggest argument against socialism is probably that socialist policies are detested most vehemently by the working class themselves. UK working people swung heavily in favour of the Tories this past election. 30% more of America’s white working class voted for Trump than did Hillary. By my experience the majority of avowed socialists these days are people who come from upper middle class families.


That doesn't necessarily say that working-class Brits are moving away from socialism, since the Conservatives have a broader platform than just "capitalism good, socialism bad", and more reasons to vote for them than just "socialism sucks".

Plus, I haven't checked out the Labour/Libdem/Green/SNP manifestos any time recently, but I'm fairly certain their platforms aren't just "socialism good, capitalism bad" (if any of them are even pro-socialism in the first place).
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Vassenor
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Vassenor » Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:06 am

Estanglia wrote:
-Ra- wrote:The biggest argument against socialism is probably that socialist policies are detested most vehemently by the working class themselves. UK working people swung heavily in favour of the Tories this past election. 30% more of America’s white working class voted for Trump than did Hillary. By my experience the majority of avowed socialists these days are people who come from upper middle class families.


That doesn't necessarily say that working-class Brits are moving away from socialism, since the Conservatives have a broader platform than just "capitalism good, socialism bad", and more reasons to vote for them than just "socialism sucks".

Plus, I haven't checked out the Labour/Libdem/Green/SNP manifestos any time recently, but I'm fairly certain their platforms aren't just "socialism good, capitalism bad" (if any of them are even pro-socialism in the first place).


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Picairn
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Picairn » Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:51 am

The New California Republic wrote:It's turning into that by default yes, likely much to the chagrin of the OP themselves given their position...

He should have anticipated that. NSG is like a Democratic Socialist convention.
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UniversalCommons
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Left-Leaning College State

Postby UniversalCommons » Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:40 am

Jabberwocky wrote:trump is a socialist, but he subsidizes corporations rather than people.


But corporations are people according to the new laws in the United States. You could even have an AI as the main way of running a corporation and it could be argued that the corporation was a person.
https://www.311institute.com/no-humans- ... dge-funds/

This will start happening. Corporations being people is one of the reasons Trump was elected. There could be a new corporatist agenda when this legislation passed.
https://www.history.com/news/14th-amend ... nto-people
Last edited by UniversalCommons on Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Honeydewistania
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Capitalist Paradise

Postby Honeydewistania » Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:48 am

Picairn wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:It's turning into that by default yes, likely much to the chagrin of the OP themselves given their position...

He should have anticipated that. NSG is like a Democratic Socialist convention.

Good
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Aureumterra III
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Aureumterra III » Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:49 am

Picairn wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:It's turning into that by default yes, likely much to the chagrin of the OP themselves given their position...

He should have anticipated that. NSG is like a Democratic Socialist convention.

It’s amusing how contrasting two boards on the same forum can be
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Aureumterra III
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Aureumterra III » Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:52 am

UniversalCommons wrote:
Jabberwocky wrote:trump is a socialist, but he subsidizes corporations rather than people.


But corporations are people according to the new laws in the United States. You could even have an AI as the main way of running a corporation and it could be argued that the corporation was a person.
https://www.311institute.com/no-humans- ... dge-funds/

This will start happening. Corporations being people is one of the reasons Trump was elected. There could be a new corporatist agenda when this legislation passed.
https://www.history.com/news/14th-amend ... nto-people

Do you know what corporatism is? Because it’s probably not what you think (government controlled by corporations), that would be a plutocracy
Last edited by Aureumterra III on Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ayanka
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Ayanka » Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:54 am

Jabberwocky wrote:trump is a socialist, but he subsidizes corporations rather than people.

Socialism is when the government gives money, and it's more socialism the more money it gives. And if it gives a real lot of money, it's communism.

I swear, some of you people...
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UniversalCommons
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Left-Leaning College State

Postby UniversalCommons » Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:26 am

Aureumterra III wrote:
UniversalCommons wrote:
But corporations are people according to the new laws in the United States. You could even have an AI as the main way of running a corporation and it could be argued that the corporation was a person.
https://www.311institute.com/no-humans- ... dge-funds/

This will start happening. Corporations being people is one of the reasons Trump was elected. There could be a new corporatist agenda when this legislation passed.
https://www.history.com/news/14th-amend ... nto-people

Do you know what corporatism is? Because it’s probably not what you think (government controlled by corporations), that would be a plutocracy


No it would be an oligarchic plutocracy that bought government.

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Aureumterra III
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Aureumterra III » Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:27 am

UniversalCommons wrote:
Aureumterra III wrote:Do you know what corporatism is? Because it’s probably not what you think (government controlled by corporations), that would be a plutocracy


No it would be an oligarchic plutocracy that bought government.

That’s not corporatism either, that’s still plutocracy
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Stylan
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Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Stylan » Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:33 am

really stupid thread.

anyway...

take a look at these if you want

https://www.ecowatch.com/oil-lobbyist-p ... 14232.html
Oil lobbyist brags about keeping protestors criminalized.

https://news.littlesis.org/2020/06/18/c ... undations/
Big corporations partner with police foundations and fund them.

CIA arrested Nelson Mandela.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wor ... n-mandela/

US government admits that Castro had a least 50 percent of Cubans on his side.
https://history.state.gov/historicaldoc ... 60v06/d499

Literacy in the USSR.
https://web.archive.org/web/20120313183 ... =&ucat=22&

CIA literally admits that people in the USSR eat about the same as people in the U.S., albeit a bit more healthy.
https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom ... 0009-5.pdf

America sought to crush Cuba's economy.
https://history.state.gov/historicaldoc ... 60v06/d499

Poor students recieved financial aid in the USSR.
https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom ... 309819.pdf

Workers fleeing to the USSR.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/27671737?r ... b_contents

Higher mortality rates in post-Soviet Russia.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5459934/

Big corporations, including "woke brands," fund gerrymandering efforts by Republicans.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... 0-election

https://www.leftvoice.org/trumps-federa ... n-portland
Police are kidnapping protestors in unmarked vans. Peaceful protestors.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/joshwilson ... y-ice/amp/
ICE tried to block a netflix documentary.

https://www.qiaocollective.com/en/education/xinjiang
China, Pt 1

https://www.qiaocollective.com/en/education/hong-kong
China, Pt 2

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... 9-0055.pdf
Study using World Bank data, which found that socialist countries had a higher quality of life than capitalist countries when controlling for level of economic development. Quality of life was measured using criteria such as life expectancy, literacy, daily calorie consumption per capita, access to higher education, housing, etc.

https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom ... 0001-1.pdf
Report from the CIA which found some interesting things about the gulags, including that between 65% and 95% of prisoners (depending on the camp) were imprisoned for genuine crimes (such as theft, murder, rape, etc.) rather than political offenses.

https://www.unicef.org/cuba/
Statistics compiled on the official UNICEF website, showing that Cuba's life expectancy and literacy rate are higher than those of the USA, and Cuba has a lower percentage of babies born with low birthweight (5.2%) than the USA (8.28% according to the CDC). Low birthweight can be an indicator of many problems, from poor nutrition to fetal disorders and stress during pregnancy; Cuba's better statistic here is a major quality of life indicator.

https://www.wfpusa.org/countries/cuba/#
USA branch of the World Food Program (the food-assistance branch of the United Nations) claims that Cuba's "comprehensive social protection programs" have helped to drastically reduce hunger in Cuba. This is especially impressive when Cuba is compared to other developing countries, and considering the decades of economic blockade.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/2747879?se ... b_contents
89% of Czechoslovaks supported communism in 1968.

Anyways, no one smart or serious supports capitalism, so. But take a look at the five billion sources if you want, tho I doubt it'd change your mind, doesn't matter though since communism is natural and the end of capitalism is coming very soon. :)
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Sanghyeok
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Founded: Dec 29, 2016
Democratic Socialists

Postby Sanghyeok » Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:35 am

Stylan wrote:Big corporations, including "woke brands," fund gerrymandering efforts by Republicans.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... 0-election



This one is the most disgusting. People think that a company can be "good" all of a sudden after waving a rainbow flag, when they're responsible for years of oppression for those groups.

サンヒョク社会主義連合連邦
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Aureumterra III
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Aureumterra III » Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:36 am

Stylan wrote:—Snip—

Marx, is that you?
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Picairn
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Picairn » Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:39 am

Stylan wrote:Anyways, no one smart or serious supports capitalism, so. But take a look at the five billion sources if you want, tho I doubt it'd change your mind, doesn't matter though since communism is natural and the end of capitalism is coming very soon. :)

I hope you did not copy and paste all that wall of text from r/communism on Reddit, like last time we met.
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Aureumterra III
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Aureumterra III » Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:42 am

Picairn wrote:
Stylan wrote:Anyways, no one smart or serious supports capitalism, so. But take a look at the five billion sources if you want, tho I doubt it'd change your mind, doesn't matter though since communism is natural and the end of capitalism is coming very soon. :)

I hope you did not copy and paste all that wall of text from r/communism on Reddit, like last time we met.

Ohhh that sub

The one that said the Belarus protestors were crisis actors paid by the CIA controlled by NATO and the Jews?
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Wink Wonk We Like Stonks
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Founded: May 20, 2020
New York Times Democracy

Postby Wink Wonk We Like Stonks » Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:47 am

Sanghyeok wrote:
Stylan wrote:Big corporations, including "woke brands," fund gerrymandering efforts by Republicans.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... 0-election



This one is the most disgusting. People think that a company can be "good" all of a sudden after waving a rainbow flag, when they're responsible for years of oppression for those groups.


it's all fun and games until june ends and corporations forget to pretend to care about minorities.
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Picairn
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Picairn » Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:48 am

Aureumterra III wrote:Ohhh that sub

The one that said the Belarus protestors were crisis actors paid by the CIA controlled by NATO and the Jews?

Actually it was the "The end of American hegemony" thread. Purpelia implicitly called Stylan a cheater for engaging in Gish Gallop and he magically disappeared from the debate.
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Sanghyeok
Minister
 
Posts: 2622
Founded: Dec 29, 2016
Democratic Socialists

Postby Sanghyeok » Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:51 am

Wink Wonk We Like Stonks wrote:
Sanghyeok wrote:
This one is the most disgusting. People think that a company can be "good" all of a sudden after waving a rainbow flag, when they're responsible for years of oppression for those groups.


it's all fun and games until june ends and corporations forget to pretend to care about minorities.


All corporations watch the bottom line, and they'll pretend to care until they don't need to.

サンヒョク社会主義連合連邦
我が祖国は、革命の赤旗を守る!世界の労働者万歳 統一戦線万歳 どんな時も その眩しさ 覚えていた
Chairwoman Oomiya in tea party with Azur Deutschland leaders Julienne and Sylvia | Chairwoman Oomiya to receive delegation from various realms in celebration of 861st Birthday Gala
Mini custard puddings
And fresh poured Darjeeling
Strawberry parfait so sweet and appealing,
Little soft plushies and baths in hot springs
These are a few of my favorite things


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Resilient Acceleration
Envoy
 
Posts: 210
Founded: Sep 23, 2020
New York Times Democracy

Postby Resilient Acceleration » Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:08 am

Sanghyeok wrote:
Stylan wrote:Big corporations, including "woke brands," fund gerrymandering efforts by Republicans.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... 0-election



This one is the most disgusting. People think that a company can be "good" all of a sudden after waving a rainbow flag, when they're responsible for years of oppression for those groups.

In fact they only wave the rainbow flag on places that will be received best by the markets. If it has a potential to reduce profit, they won't.
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2033.03.03
SOUTH CHINA MORNING TIMES | Open-source, 3D-printed clothes at near zero cost "has destroyed 70% of the global fashion industry" | Terrorist cyberattack at North Carolina's integrated grid system foiled, Secretary Pasca calls for stronger surveillance against anarcho-luddite terror cells

Featured Article | A dystopian, late-stage capitalist, near-future where a clique of radical, totalitarian, eugenicist tech barons decided to try gang up and take over the world to save civilization, emphasis on "try" | Resilient Accelerationism in a nutshell

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