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by Eurasies » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:29 pm
by -Ra- » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:31 pm
All Wild Things wrote:"It's important to remember that socialism is not universal healthcare, public roads, free public education, taxes, unions, or "the government doing stuff." These are social policies, not socialist policies, and they are all perfectly compatible with capitalism."
What about publicly owned rail networks, electricity grids, gas pipelines, water and sewerage pipelines, telephone networks, broadband networks. They're all kind of like public roads aren't they? Are these all perfectly compatible with capitalism too?
If the government can choose to give universal healthcare and education, and still not be socialist, can they give out food too? Food is essential for staying healthy. As is exercise. Can we get universal gym memberships and still be capitalists?
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by New haven america » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:32 pm
All Wild Things wrote:"It's important to remember that socialism is not universal healthcare, public roads, free public education, taxes, unions, or "the government doing stuff." These are social policies, not socialist policies, and they are all perfectly compatible with capitalism."
What about publicly owned rail networks, electricity grids, gas pipelines, water and sewerage pipelines, telephone networks, broadband networks. They're all kind of like public roads aren't they? Are these all perfectly compatible with capitalism too?
If the government can choose to give universal healthcare and education, and still not be socialist, can they give out food too? Food is essential for staying healthy. As is exercise. Can we get universal gym memberships and still be capitalists?
by The Marlborough » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:32 pm
by Minskiev » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:36 pm
The Marlborough wrote:Does socialism still present a threat to the world? To your country? No. Few people are calling for full blown common ownership of the means of production and they have no powerful state to back them further.
Should liberals and conservatives do more to square their differences and rally against socialist tides, wherever they may spring up? No. Liberalism, especially classical liberalism, gives rise to the forces and factors that make people want turn to socialism.
by All Wild Things » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:37 pm
New haven america wrote:All Wild Things wrote:"It's important to remember that socialism is not universal healthcare, public roads, free public education, taxes, unions, or "the government doing stuff." These are social policies, not socialist policies, and they are all perfectly compatible with capitalism."
What about publicly owned rail networks, electricity grids, gas pipelines, water and sewerage pipelines, telephone networks, broadband networks. They're all kind of like public roads aren't they? Are these all perfectly compatible with capitalism too?
If the government can choose to give universal healthcare and education, and still not be socialist, can they give out food too? Food is essential for staying healthy. As is exercise. Can we get universal gym memberships and still be capitalists?
No, those are all socialist policies, having been envisioned during the times of the Industrial Revolution and 1920's-30's when the USSR was taking off.
by -Ra- » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:39 pm
All Wild Things wrote:New haven america wrote:No, those are all socialist policies, having been envisioned during the times of the Industrial Revolution and 1920's-30's when the USSR was taking off.
So how come it's ok for us all to share a road but not a gas pipeline?
And how come it's okay to provide universal healthcare, but not to provide healthy food that would reduce the need for that healthcare?
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by Punished UMN » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:40 pm
Minskiev wrote:The Marlborough wrote:Does socialism still present a threat to the world? To your country? No. Few people are calling for full blown common ownership of the means of production and they have no powerful state to back them further.
Should liberals and conservatives do more to square their differences and rally against socialist tides, wherever they may spring up? No. Liberalism, especially classical liberalism, gives rise to the forces and factors that make people want turn to socialism.
Excuse me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t the first communist-turned-Stalinist-reverted back to-socialist revolution trying to overthrow a monarchy, particularly the Russian absolutist one?
by New haven america » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:41 pm
All Wild Things wrote:New haven america wrote:No, those are all socialist policies, having been envisioned during the times of the Industrial Revolution and 1920's-30's when the USSR was taking off.
1. So how come it's ok for us all to share a road but not a gas pipeline?
2. And how come it's okay to provide universal healthcare, but not to provide healthy food that would reduce the need for that healthcare?
by Chan Island » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:41 pm
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.
by The Marlborough » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:43 pm
Minskiev wrote:The Marlborough wrote:Does socialism still present a threat to the world? To your country? No. Few people are calling for full blown common ownership of the means of production and they have no powerful state to back them further.
Should liberals and conservatives do more to square their differences and rally against socialist tides, wherever they may spring up? No. Liberalism, especially classical liberalism, gives rise to the forces and factors that make people want turn to socialism.
Excuse me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t the first communist-turned-Stalinist-reverted back to-socialist revolution trying to overthrow a monarchy, particularly the Russian absolutist one?
by Kowani » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:43 pm
-Ra- wrote:All Wild Things wrote:So how come it's ok for us all to share a road but not a gas pipeline?
And how come it's okay to provide universal healthcare, but not to provide healthy food that would reduce the need for that healthcare?
We kinda do already. Go to a homeless shelter or a soup kitchen. Many of these organizations are run by private individuals or firms, which is better than the government anyway.
And none of this has to do with the workers owning the means of production.
by Punished UMN » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:45 pm
Eurasies wrote:Just as we pro-capitalism ruined the thread of Marxism, the pro-socialists are going to ruin this thread, nice
by New haven america » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:46 pm
by Albrenia » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:47 pm
Eurasies wrote:Just as we pro-capitalism ruined the thread of Marxism, the pro-socialists are going to ruin this thread, nice
by Minskiev » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:47 pm
Punished UMN wrote:Minskiev wrote:
Excuse me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t the first communist-turned-Stalinist-reverted back to-socialist revolution trying to overthrow a monarchy, particularly the Russian absolutist one?
The Russian Empire had allowed capitalist and particularly classical liberal economic forces to run much of the economy, which heightened class contradictions. Lenin actually realized this and continued the revolution against the provisional government. The monarchy was an enemy of the Bolsheviks, but it arguably wasn't their primary ideological enemy.
New haven america wrote:Capitalism: "Universal healthcare and social safety nets are evil because they steal money from the pockets of hard workers and socialism would never work because humans are inherently too selfish!"
Ok, so how do we deal with people who can't afford healthcare or food?
Capitalism: "IDFK. Charity or something?"
by The Marlborough » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:47 pm
Punished UMN wrote:I thought it was supposed to be the right that was opposed to safe spaces.
by Kowani » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:47 pm
by Punished UMN » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:48 pm
Minskiev wrote:Punished UMN wrote:The Russian Empire had allowed capitalist and particularly classical liberal economic forces to run much of the economy, which heightened class contradictions. Lenin actually realized this and continued the revolution against the provisional government. The monarchy was an enemy of the Bolsheviks, but it arguably wasn't their primary ideological enemy.
Would the Russian Empire not be a traditional economy? Also, quickly googled ‘causes of Russian revolution’
• Widespread suffering under autocracy—a form of government in which one person, in this case the czar, has absolute power
• Weak leadership of Czar Nicholas II—clung to autocracy despite changing times
• Poor working conditions, low wages, and hazards of industrialization
• New revolutionary movements that believed a worker-run government should replace czarist rule
• Russian defeat in the Russo-Japanese War (1905), which led to rising unrest
• Bloody Sunday, the massacre of unarmed protestors outside the palace, in 1905
• Devastation of World War I—high casualties, economic ruin, widespread hunger
• The March Revolution in 1917, in which soldiers who were brought in for crowd control ultimately joined labor activists in calling “Down with the autocracy!”
Seems to be far more about the autocracy rather than the classic liberal imperial Russian corporations.
by Eurasies » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:48 pm
New haven america wrote:Capitalism: "Universal healthcare and social safety nets are evil because they steal money from the pockets of hard workers and socialism would never work because humans are inherently too selfish!"
Ok, so how do we deal with people who can't afford healthcare or food?
Capitalism: "IDFK. Charity or something?"
by The Marlborough » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:48 pm
by Eurasies » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:49 pm
Albrenia wrote:Eurasies wrote:Just as we pro-capitalism ruined the thread of Marxism, the pro-socialists are going to ruin this thread, nice
It's the circle of life, my friend.
Although it is nice to see people on the right suddenly conceding that free healthcare, caring for the needy and education which doesn't subjugate people into debt are not, in fact, communism.
by Sanghyeok » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:49 pm
どんな時も、赤旗の眩しさを覚えていた
Magical socialist paradise headed by an immortal, tea-loving and sometimes childish Chairwoman who happens to be the younger Ōmiya sister
by Kowani » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:50 pm
The Marlborough wrote:"Quickly Googled the causes of the Russian Revolution". Bushmoi.
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