Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2020 7:28 am
Newton and Leibniz.
Who invented calculus?
Who invented calculus?
Because sometimes even national leaders just want to hang out
https://forum.nationstates.net/
Plum blossom wrote:Chuang Kai-shen,or should say-Jiang Jieshi,
I think at least belong one of the asia most controversial person.
Sunson wrote:Genghis Khan, maybe?
Overran half the world, depopulated entire cities, but also the father of modern diplomacy (with its diplomatic immunity).
Autumn Wind wrote:Mathuvan Union wrote:Millions did die because of the aftermath, he helped with some of the research. I still stand true.
Not really. He came up with theories underlying the atomic reaction, but wasn’t a part of the Manhattan project. That’s like blaming firearm deaths on the ancient Chinese dude who invented gun powder.
And do you have a source for “millions”? I mean, even if the deaths of everyone who lived in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, or worked on the Manhattan project or exposed to any other nuclear test could be attributed directly or indirectly to nuclear weapons, it might push one million. Do you have a source for more than that?
Kiu Ghesik wrote:The Blaatschapen wrote:
And what is the good side of him?
His own writing, if we trust it, indicates that he was really only affiliated with the Nazis because they were enabling his larger goal of man in space. Apparently after the first V2 test he stated that it worked perfectly until it came down, or something along those lines. By his own admission the weaponry was to him a secondary, somewhat unwanted outgrowth of the technology he developed.
I'm fairly certain he didn't ask for the slave labor, the Nazis just provided it and he didn't say no, which is somewhat a worthless distinction but I feel it should be made regardless.
And the CIA was probably using torture well before Von Braun came along. I don't understand what the purpose of equating one man's ethics to the CIA's interrogation practices is when to my knowledge that man was never involved in determining those interrogation practices.
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:I’d say one of them is King Ferdinand II of Aragon. A true Machiavellian who permitted the injustices carried out by the Spanish Inquisition, with far reaching repercussions in the entire Iberian Peninsula. Even today. Who had no qualms with kicking the Jews out of the kingdoms. Who made sure to keep his own daughter from ascending to the throne out of greed to keep Castile under his rule and who allowed many of the crimes committed in the colonies despite knowing full well what was going on.
The Blaatschapen wrote:Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:I’d say one of them is King Ferdinand II of Aragon. A true Machiavellian who permitted the injustices carried out by the Spanish Inquisition, with far reaching repercussions in the entire Iberian Peninsula. Even today. Who had no qualms with kicking the Jews out of the kingdoms. Who made sure to keep his own daughter from ascending to the throne out of greed to keep Castile under his rule and who allowed many of the crimes committed in the colonies despite knowing full well what was going on.
And what is the good side of him?
Mathuvan Union wrote:Kiu Ghesik wrote:His own writing, if we trust it, indicates that he was really only affiliated with the Nazis because they were enabling his larger goal of man in space. Apparently after the first V2 test he stated that it worked perfectly until it came down, or something along those lines. By his own admission the weaponry was to him a secondary, somewhat unwanted outgrowth of the technology he developed.
I'm fairly certain he didn't ask for the slave labor, the Nazis just provided it and he didn't say no, which is somewhat a worthless distinction but I feel it should be made regardless.
And the CIA was probably using torture well before Von Braun came along. I don't understand what the purpose of equating one man's ethics to the CIA's interrogation practices is when to my knowledge that man was never involved in determining those interrogation practices.
the CIA didn't exist until 1949...
Kiu Ghesik wrote:Mathuvan Union wrote:the CIA didn't exist until 1949...
Good point. I stand corrected. Though I still don't see how von Braun specifically can be blamed for it. Operation Paperclip and introducing a bunch of nasty fellows into the intelligence apparatus? Yeah, but I don't think von Braun ever had connections to that apparatus.
The Blaatschapen wrote:Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:I’d say one of them is King Ferdinand II of Aragon. A true Machiavellian who permitted the injustices carried out by the Spanish Inquisition, with far reaching repercussions in the entire Iberian Peninsula. Even today. Who had no qualms with kicking the Jews out of the kingdoms. Who made sure to keep his own daughter from ascending to the throne out of greed to keep Castile under his rule and who allowed many of the crimes committed in the colonies despite knowing full well what was going on.
And what is the good side of him?
Mathuvan Union wrote:Kiu Ghesik wrote:Good point. I stand corrected. Though I still don't see how von Braun specifically can be blamed for it. Operation Paperclip and introducing a bunch of nasty fellows into the intelligence apparatus? Yeah, but I don't think von Braun ever had connections to that apparatus.
there was another one who certainly did because he was executed for war crimes.
Von Braun helped with the design of space suits, but likely only because of horrific tests performed on enslaved jews that involved oxygen deprivation.
Kiu Ghesik wrote:Mathuvan Union wrote:there was another one who certainly did because he was executed for war crimes.
Von Braun helped with the design of space suits, but likely only because of horrific tests performed on enslaved jews that involved oxygen deprivation.
Wasn't that another guy? IIRC the Nazis never developed space suits or anything like that, and they were pretty compartmentalized. I doubt he would have gotten his hands on work from the camps or Mengele's stuff.
Von Braun allegedly h a t e d the stuff the Nazis did to his workers, but did nothing about it. There's allegations he beat people and ordered prisoners tortured, but there's not-insignificant evidence that these reports were misattributed to others at the V2 plant, especially since the commandant in charge of the workers at the plant had a reputation for brutality. So I'd say he's a controversial dude in the sense he's human, bows to authority, and was willing to look past nasty shit to achieve things for what he sees as the greater good, but he's not a cackling evil maniac.
Ethel mermania wrote:God.
Mathuvan Union wrote:Kiu Ghesik wrote:Wasn't that another guy? IIRC the Nazis never developed space suits or anything like that, and they were pretty compartmentalized. I doubt he would have gotten his hands on work from the camps or Mengele's stuff.
Von Braun allegedly h a t e d the stuff the Nazis did to his workers, but did nothing about it. There's allegations he beat people and ordered prisoners tortured, but there's not-insignificant evidence that these reports were misattributed to others at the V2 plant, especially since the commandant in charge of the workers at the plant had a reputation for brutality. So I'd say he's a controversial dude in the sense he's human, bows to authority, and was willing to look past nasty shit to achieve things for what he sees as the greater good, but he's not a cackling evil maniac.
he did. he factory relied on slave labour from camps
Kiu Ghesik wrote:Mathuvan Union wrote:he did. he factory relied on slave labour from camps
Yeah. Here's the relevant info from Wikipedia:
All of this summarized indicates to me he felt pressured to do horrible things, did those horrible things, and spent the rest of his life trying to rationalize why he did those things. Probably the definition of controversial.
The Archregimancy wrote:The unnamed individual(s) who inaugurated the Neolithic agricultural revolution somewhere in the modern Middle East.
Yes, having a more reliable source of food was nice; but against that was the negative impact on nutrition (average human height wouldn't reach pre-Neolithic levels again until the 20th century), a rise in social and gender inequality, and potentially a decline in the happiness levels of human populations (though research on the latter often relies on analysis of modern hunter-gatherer populations, so should be taken with a pinch of salt). We'll call the ability to support denser population centres a mixed bag.
The Archregimancy wrote:5000 years of recorded history to choose from, and there's only 3 nominations so far (when I started writing this post) from before the 15th century AD (excluding God). That leaves you 3500 years of history to play with.
Octavian/Augustus, Mohammed, and Genghis Khan aren't bad as pre-modern nominations go, but you could do so much better if you tried.
Khufu, Sargon of Akkad, Akhenaten, Alexander the Great, Qin Shi Huang, Constantine the Great, Khusrau II, Wu Zetian ... there's so much material to work with here if you put just a bit of effort in.