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Most controversial person in history

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Lancaster of Wessex
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Posts: 4999
Founded: Feb 21, 2004
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Lancaster of Wessex » Thu Oct 08, 2020 7:08 am

Jesus Christ of Nazareth.
Lancaster.
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Mathuvan Union
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Founded: Feb 20, 2020
Father Knows Best State

Postby Mathuvan Union » Thu Oct 08, 2020 7:14 am

Punished UMN wrote:
Mathuvan Union wrote:I dunno, because I don't really like explorers raiding helpless beings.
that is basically the only bad side of him and even then, it didn't happen much.

That doesn't make him controversial though. Whether he was bad or not doesn't necessarily spur controversy. I don't think Zheng He is particularly bad, so this example is unrelated, but like, Hitler is really evil, but that's not really a controversial opinion about Hitler. It's not like people preface "Hitler was evil" with "I don't want to get political or anything." Controversy would mean there are people who both revile and celebrate the person, in relatively equal measure.

true, I just find some things about him controversial.
Last edited by Various Dictators on 1/1/0001, at 12:00 AM, edited 9,000 times in total
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The New California Republic
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Posts: 33754
Founded: Jun 06, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Thu Oct 08, 2020 7:19 am

Lancaster of Wessex wrote:Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

There is something that might need pointing out here: how much of the controversy of certain people is actually due to the words and actions of the person, and how much of it is due to those words and actions being twisted and misinterpreted over the course of centuries?
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
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Mathuvan Union
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Posts: 4783
Founded: Feb 20, 2020
Father Knows Best State

Postby Mathuvan Union » Thu Oct 08, 2020 7:21 am

The New California Republic wrote:
Lancaster of Wessex wrote:Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

There is something that might need pointing out here: how much of the controversy of certain people is actually due to the words and actions of the person, and how much of it is due to those words and actions being twisted and misinterpreted over the course of centuries?

Maybe hitler was a good painter but everyone hated him.
Last edited by Various Dictators on 1/1/0001, at 12:00 AM, edited 9,000 times in total
G'day. I have nothing to say. Damn. this rhymes. LOOK AWAY, MORTAL BEINGS!
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The New California Republic
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Founded: Jun 06, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Thu Oct 08, 2020 7:27 am

Mathuvan Union wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:There is something that might need pointing out here: how much of the controversy of certain people is actually due to the words and actions of the person, and how much of it is due to those words and actions being twisted and misinterpreted over the course of centuries?

Maybe hitler was a good painter but everyone hated him.

Well I wouldn't go that far, as that falsehood is pretty clear-cut.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

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Hypersensible Crybabies
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Posts: 13
Founded: Dec 10, 2019
Anarchy

Postby Hypersensible Crybabies » Thu Oct 08, 2020 7:30 am

Roman emperor Theodosius I. He made Christianity the official religion of Roman Empire. Enough said...

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Lancaster of Wessex
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Founded: Feb 21, 2004
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Lancaster of Wessex » Thu Oct 08, 2020 7:31 am

The New California Republic wrote:
Lancaster of Wessex wrote:Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

There is something that might need pointing out here: how much of the controversy of certain people is actually due to the words and actions of the person, and how much of it is due to those words and actions being twisted and misinterpreted over the course of centuries?


Well, although what He actually said in terms of what the Gospels relay is debatable, for someone to be claiming to be the Son of Man with the power of forgiveness over sin and the sabbath and being the Messiah, i.e. God incarnate, is pretty controversial unto itself. Nobody ever claimed what He did at that time period apparently.
Lancaster.
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The Most High, Potent, and Noble Prince, Lancaster, By the Grace of God, Duke of Wessex, Protector of the Enclaved Pious Estates of The Church of Wessex, Lord of Saint Aldhelm Islands, Prince and Great Steward of Celtic Wessex, Keeper of the Great Seal of the Duchy and House of Lancaster of Wessex, Sovereign of the Most Ancient and Illustrious Order of the Gold Gryphon, etc.

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Mathuvan Union
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Posts: 4783
Founded: Feb 20, 2020
Father Knows Best State

Postby Mathuvan Union » Thu Oct 08, 2020 7:32 am

The New California Republic wrote:
Mathuvan Union wrote:Maybe hitler was a good painter but everyone hated him.

Well I wouldn't go that far, as that falsehood is pretty clear-cut.

I was thinking of adding Not Trolling pre emptively.
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Resilient Acceleration
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Posts: 758
Founded: Sep 23, 2020
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Resilient Acceleration » Thu Oct 08, 2020 7:34 am

Mathuvan Union wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:There is something that might need pointing out here: how much of the controversy of certain people is actually due to the words and actions of the person, and how much of it is due to those words and actions being twisted and misinterpreted over the course of centuries?

Maybe hitler was a good painter but everyone hated him.

IIRC, one of the selector's biggest criticism against Hitler's artworks is that they're too organized, orderly, and don't really show expression. After rejecting him, they even advised Hitler that he'll be more suitable in architecture. Considering that art is highly influenced by one's self, this felt like a bad premonition...

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Mathuvan Union
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Founded: Feb 20, 2020
Father Knows Best State

Postby Mathuvan Union » Thu Oct 08, 2020 7:35 am

Resilient Acceleration wrote:
Mathuvan Union wrote:Maybe hitler was a good painter but everyone hated him.

IIRC, one of the selector's biggest criticism against Hitler's artworks is that they're too organized, orderly, and don't really show expression. After rejecting him, they even advised Hitler that he'll be more suitable in architecture. Considering that art is highly influenced by one's self, this felt like a bad premonition...

maybe he should have followed that advice, who knows what have happened.
I still think he would have been a nazi.
Last edited by Various Dictators on 1/1/0001, at 12:00 AM, edited 9,000 times in total
G'day. I have nothing to say. Damn. this rhymes. LOOK AWAY, MORTAL BEINGS!
Calvin and Hobbes is the best comic of all times. Yes, I am Hobbes
Best Song Ever. At The Rainbow in ‘74. Awesome.
Male. Refer to me as ‘he’ or I will bring memes. You do not want my memes.
Behind the free market lies the iron fist of the state - the one thing I learned from The Blaatschapen, excluding how to say sheep in dutch

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West Bromwich Holme
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Posts: 286
Founded: Mar 12, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby West Bromwich Holme » Thu Oct 08, 2020 7:54 am

Elon Musk - no doubt about it. From that infamous getting high on air moment, to ditching Tesla's PR department (emulating Trump strategy of "by tweet for developments?", and Tesla being controversial as it is).

The Tesla Model 3 doesn't look too bad, and the Model S is quite good, but I'm put off them, not to mention how expensive they are here.
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West Leas Oros 2
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Posts: 6004
Founded: Jul 15, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby West Leas Oros 2 » Thu Oct 08, 2020 8:13 am

Aureumterra III wrote:
West Leas Oros 2 wrote:This sounds like an alternate timeline, but it isn't. the world is strange.

The real alternate timeline is the fact that nationalist leader Gustav Kasserstrand posted a Reddit meme on his Twitter
Image

Okay, I'll admit, that's a little funny. I'm a sucker for political compass memes. The only problem is he's missing the point.
Last edited by West Leas Oros 2 on Thu Oct 08, 2020 8:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The New California Republic
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Founded: Jun 06, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Thu Oct 08, 2020 9:02 am

Resilient Acceleration wrote:
Mathuvan Union wrote:Maybe hitler was a good painter but everyone hated him.

IIRC, one of the selector's biggest criticism against Hitler's artworks is that they're too organized, orderly, and don't really show expression. After rejecting him, they even advised Hitler that he'll be more suitable in architecture. Considering that art is highly influenced by one's self, this felt like a bad premonition...

I'm sure everyone would much rather he'd designed some pretty mediocre and uninspired houses in comparison to what he did.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

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Ethel mermania
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Posts: 113297
Founded: Aug 20, 2010
Father Knows Best State

Postby Ethel mermania » Thu Oct 08, 2020 9:09 am

The New California Republic wrote:
Resilient Acceleration wrote:IIRC, one of the selector's biggest criticism against Hitler's artworks is that they're too organized, orderly, and don't really show expression. After rejecting him, they even advised Hitler that he'll be more suitable in architecture. Considering that art is highly influenced by one's self, this felt like a bad premonition...

I'm sure everyone would much rather he'd designed some pretty mediocre and uninspired houses in comparison to what he did.

In the question of "if you could change history in only one way, what would you do?". My answer is to bribe the judges to let hitler into art school.
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The Blaatschapen
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Founded: Antiquity
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Postby The Blaatschapen » Thu Oct 08, 2020 9:09 am

The New California Republic wrote:
Resilient Acceleration wrote:IIRC, one of the selector's biggest criticism against Hitler's artworks is that they're too organized, orderly, and don't really show expression. After rejecting him, they even advised Hitler that he'll be more suitable in architecture. Considering that art is highly influenced by one's self, this felt like a bad premonition...

I'm sure everyone would much rather he'd designed some pretty mediocre and uninspired houses in comparison to what he did.

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United Hemand Insia
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Founded: Sep 20, 2020
Moralistic Democracy

Postby United Hemand Insia » Thu Oct 08, 2020 9:12 am

Greed and Death wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:What? When? How?

Well Trump's fever came back and he sort of launched the US arsenal at Russia. So shortly is the answer. By the way I am safely in the Southern hemisphere.


I was literally scrolling down for the first mention of Trump.
Pro: right-wing, -life, military, police, guns, capitalism, democracy, LGBT, there's more but I can't currently think of them.
Anti: Left-wing, -choice, racial injustice, Democrats, communism, socialism, liberal, social, there's also more but I can't think of them right now.
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Sicilian Imperial-Capitalist Empire
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Founded: Oct 27, 2016
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Sicilian Imperial-Capitalist Empire » Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:36 pm

The Archregimancy wrote:
Sicilian Imperial-Capitalist Empire wrote:Well this is discussing who is the most controversial person in history, not exactly who is mildly controversial to a few people or ethnic groups.


Which is specifically why I offered a short list of some of the most controversial people in history pre-dating the 15th century rather than people who were mildly controversial to a few people or ethnic groups.

This may perhaps come as a surprise, but I do have a passing familiarity with historical topics.

Your list isn't that controversial. In fact, I'm going to take a moment to analyze all of these rulers.

Khufu: Poorly documented Egyptian pharaoh who is only known as that guy who built the pyramids. Not controversial

Sargon of Akkad: Conqueror who some claim to be responsible for building the very first empire. He's actually only known for his conquests as far as I know. Mildly controversial (is he good or bad? not a very controversial question, but might generate intrigue)

Akhenaten: Interesting pharaoh for abandoning traditional Egyptian religion and creating Atenism. It's still debated whether this was a power grab or legitimate attempt at stopping the clergy. Mildly controversial (he's not that evil regardless)

Alexander the Great: Great conqueror who introduced Greek culture to his empire who had some 20 cities named after himself and 1 after his horse. He was a military innovator and, despite the civil wars, his legacy would be one of peace and stability in the Middle East, a feat rarely achieved by any other nation in history. Currently, Macedonians and Greeks feud over exactly which nation Alexander belongs to. Not historically controversial Very controversial now

Qin Shi Huang: Founder of the Qin Dynasty and Chinese Imperial System, Huang is the only person on this list to be unanimously controversial. He cemented the Chinese state and grew it's borders, but also executed many scholars and intellectuals. He built many Chinese cultural wonders (most notably the Terracotta Army), but was simultaneously one of the single most authoritarian Chinese rulers in history. Very controversial

Constantine the Great: While still remaining a controversial figure among historians, I'm actually unsure of what to rank him. While he is potentially a controversial character, the fact that historians are still trying to take anti-Constantinian documents into account leaves me wondering if I should use them too (given how he's seemingly done such good if you exclude Christianity). Regardless, he has the potential to be highly controversial. Very controversial religiously Possibly controversial historically and now

Khusrau II: Persian shah who was constantly at war with either usurpers or Rome. That doesn't make him bad, really. It's just like most other ancient or medieval rulers. Not controversial

Wu Zetian: De facto Chinese empress who oversaw a period of prosperity and military expansion within China. One of her descendants was also a great emperor. Not controversial

Overall, apart from Qin Shi Huang, nobody else on the list is too controversial. You could argue that Alexander the Great is controversial as well, but not really since it's just a controversy over who Alexander belongs to.

There is one historical figure I will say could be potentially very controversial: Julius Caesar.
Last edited by Sicilian Imperial-Capitalist Empire on Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:41 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Borderlands of Rojava
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:10 pm

Christian Weston Chandler. He is also the most documented person in history.
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Ottoman Syldavia
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Founded: Oct 06, 2019
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Nixon

Postby Ottoman Syldavia » Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:13 pm

I believe it is Richard Nixon. He helped the US in many ideals, but... I mean... Water gate duh.
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United Hemand Insia
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Founded: Sep 20, 2020
Moralistic Democracy

Postby United Hemand Insia » Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:15 pm

Ottoman Syldavia wrote:I believe it is Richard Nixon. He helped the US in many ideals, but... I mean... Water gate duh.


That's a very good suggestion. I agree.
Pro: right-wing, -life, military, police, guns, capitalism, democracy, LGBT, there's more but I can't currently think of them.
Anti: Left-wing, -choice, racial injustice, Democrats, communism, socialism, liberal, social, there's also more but I can't think of them right now.
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Somerania
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Posts: 468
Founded: Mar 24, 2020
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Somerania » Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:18 pm

Mathuvan Union wrote:
Kiu Ghesik wrote:Good point. I stand corrected. Though I still don't see how von Braun specifically can be blamed for it. Operation Paperclip and introducing a bunch of nasty fellows into the intelligence apparatus? Yeah, but I don't think von Braun ever had connections to that apparatus.

there was another one who certainly did because he was executed for war crimes.
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Destyntine
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Founded: Jul 22, 2020
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Destyntine » Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:20 pm

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:Christian Weston Chandler. He is also the most documented person in history.

I believe Christian is only the way he is because of the lack of proper guidance through his teens & twenties. If his parents got him a proper therapist to help with his disorder, it would have changed his entire history. Chris could have gotten into a small company with his coding skills and worked his way up from there. His parents were hoarders, they neglected him for the most part. When Bob died, Chris had lost the little guidance to stop him from becoming what he is today. The only people Chris had interaction with were destroying his life with misinformation that he actually believed due to his high functioning autism.
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Nousa
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Nousa » Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:23 pm

In a specifically American context, I'd say Robert E. Lee, given the ongoing debate about Confederate History contrasted with his generally well regarded moderate nature and battlefield success. Overall, however? Adolf Hitler, without question as we all live in the shadow of the Second World War.

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The Blaatschapen
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Postby The Blaatschapen » Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:31 pm

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:Christian Weston Chandler. He is also the most documented person in history.


Their impact is minimal. I had to look them up, and for a modern day person, that is not a good sign.

And the wiki page was not from wikipedia, another bad sign that the person is not really impactful.

Which is fully okay, I also am not on wikipedia, but I'd also not put myself down as controversial. My impact on the world is about median average. Like most people, limited to my friends, family colleagues and the stranger on the bus.
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The New California Republic
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Founded: Jun 06, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:32 pm

Ottoman Syldavia wrote:I believe it is Richard Nixon. He helped the US in many ideals, but... I mean... Water gate duh.

I mean...I guess...? Granted as far as presidencies go, his was a weird one. Obviously he eventually resigned but it's a bit of a mixed bag in terms of what he did overall.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

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