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The Archregimancy
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Founded: Aug 01, 2005
Democratic Socialists

Postby The Archregimancy » Thu Oct 08, 2020 1:42 am

Heloin wrote:Emperor Nero was a pretty controversial man. In his time he was a populist well liked by the lower classes of Rome who saw the Empire expand and oversaw the rebuilding of Rome after the great fire. But also absolutely hated by the wealthy and those who recorded history at the time, and accused of burning down Rome.


That's more like it.

But I think you're perhaps in danger of over-egging the revisionist pudding.

Nero seems to have been genuinely popular in Rome for the first five years or so of his reign - perhaps because of the contrast with his elderly stepfather and predecessor Claudius - but he seems to have gone downhill rapidly after he killed his mother Agrippina in 59 AD. Here it's worth stressing that Nero was only 16 when he came to power in 54 AD, so for those first 5 years Agrippina was functionally ruling the Roman Empire. But from 59-68 AD he clearly became increasingly erratic. While some of the worst stories about him were clearly exaggerated, the clearest sign of his unpopularity is that when Vindex and Galba revolted and proclaimed the latter as emperor, Nero very quickly lost control of the situation, and no one came to his rescue after the Praetorian Guard switched sides. This is even more remarkable when we consider that Galba was the first person outside the Julio-Claudian family to claim the principate, marking a sharp break with the past (a break which would lead to 69 AD seeing four emperors once every legionary commander with the necessary ambition realised the throne was potentially there for the taking).

The Great Fire of Rome was controversial; most sources - with the important exception of Tacitus - blame Nero directly for the fire. The truth of this is unknowable, but the legend that Nero 'fiddled' (more accurately, sang about the sack of Troy while wearing stage costume) while Rome burned is almost certainly propaganda. Nero did engage in extensive relief efforts after the fire, paying for much of the initial work himself, and opening up his palaces to the homeless poor. But his financial mismanagement of the subsequent rebuilding, not least because of the vast sums of money he poured into his new palace (the Domus Aurea, or Golden House), led to the devaluation of the currency and the imposition of new taxes that were likely the direct cause of the rebellions in 68 AD.

Nero retained some popularity in the Hellenised eastern half of the Empire to the end, likely reflecting the emperor's overt phihellenism; but then in the 1st century AD the centre's impact on the provinces was comparatively light.

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Mauritania Romana
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Posts: 23
Founded: Aug 27, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Mauritania Romana » Thu Oct 08, 2020 1:49 am

Me (Built different)

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The Blaatschapen
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Posts: 63226
Founded: Antiquity
Anarchy

Postby The Blaatschapen » Thu Oct 08, 2020 1:51 am

We have three categories:

-still alive
-pre-modern history (15th century and before)
-modern history (16th century until Eddie van Halen :( )

I gave picks on the first and the latter, but never on the pre-modern one.

I pick the first person to catch the black death. Wait, what is good about them? Well, the demographic results ended up inspiring the renaissance. At least, that's a theory, which I adhere to.
The Blaatschapen should resign

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Heloin
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Posts: 26091
Founded: Mar 30, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Heloin » Thu Oct 08, 2020 1:53 am

The Archregimancy wrote:
Heloin wrote:Emperor Nero was a pretty controversial man. In his time he was a populist well liked by the lower classes of Rome who saw the Empire expand and oversaw the rebuilding of Rome after the great fire. But also absolutely hated by the wealthy and those who recorded history at the time, and accused of burning down Rome.


That's more like it.

But I think you're perhaps in danger of over-egging the revisionist pudding.

Nero seems to have been genuinely popular in Rome for the first five years or so of his reign - perhaps because of the contrast with his elderly stepfather and predecessor Claudius - but he seems to have gone downhill rapidly after he killed his mother Agrippina in 59 AD. Here it's worth stressing that Nero was only 16 when he came to power in 54 AD, so for those first 5 years Agrippina was functionally ruling the Roman Empire. But from 59-68 AD he clearly became increasingly erratic. While some of the worst stories about him were clearly exaggerated, the clearest sign of his unpopularity is that when Vindex and Galba revolted and proclaimed the latter as emperor, Nero very quickly lost control of the situation, and no one came to his rescue after the Praetorian Guard switched sides. This is even more remarkable when we consider that Galba was the first person outside the Julio-Claudian family to claim the principate, marking a sharp break with the past (a break which would lead to 69 AD seeing four emperors once every legionary commander with the necessary ambition realised the throne was potentially there for the taking).

The Great Fire of Rome was controversial; most sources - with the important exception of Tacitus - blame Nero directly for the fire. The truth of this is unknowable, but the legend that Nero 'fiddled' (more accurately, sang about the sack of Troy while wearing stage costume) while Rome burned is almost certainly propaganda. Nero did engage in extensive relief efforts after the fire, paying for much of the initial work himself, and opening up his palaces to the homeless poor. But his financial mismanagement of the subsequent rebuilding, not least because of the vast sums of money he poured into his new palace (the Domus Aurea, or Golden House), led to the devaluation of the currency and the imposition of new taxes that were likely the direct cause of the rebellions in 68 AD.

Nero retained some popularity in the Hellenised eastern half of the Empire to the end, likely reflecting the emperor's overt phihellenism; but then in the 1st century AD the centre's impact on the provinces was comparatively light.

Of course, I definitely oversimplified with my post and didn't mean to imply that he was sunshine and roses to one side while a demon to the other. The problem is my understanding of Imperial Roman politics and many of the Emperors is severely lacking from what I'd like it to be.

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An Alan Smithee Nation
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Founded: Apr 18, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby An Alan Smithee Nation » Thu Oct 08, 2020 2:16 am

Has Justin Bieber been mentioned yet?
Everything is intertwinkled

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The Blaatschapen
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Founded: Antiquity
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Postby The Blaatschapen » Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:03 am

An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:Has Justin Bieber been mentioned yet?


Impact is mostly positive or negligible.

See, either you're a fan of him and his work, in which case it inspires, or you don't particularly care, so the impact is non-existent.
The Blaatschapen should resign

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The New California Republic
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Founded: Jun 06, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:10 am

The Blaatschapen wrote:But of course, Mikhail Sergeyevich Gorbachev is still alive.

...is Gorbachev controversial? Sure, Glasnost and Perestroika didn't pan out as expected, but I wouldn't say he is particularly controversial.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
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Punished UMN
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Founded: Jul 05, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Punished UMN » Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:11 am

The New California Republic wrote:
The Blaatschapen wrote:But of course, Mikhail Sergeyevich Gorbachev is still alive.

...is Gorbachev controversial? Sure, Glasnost and Perestroika didn't pan out as expected, but I wouldn't say he is particularly controversial.

He's pretty controversial in the former Soviet Union. An extremely divisive figure.
Eastern Orthodox Christian. Purgatorial universalist.
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I have borderline personality disorder, if I overreact to something, try to approach me after the fact and I'll apologize.
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The New California Republic
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Founded: Jun 06, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:12 am

Punished UMN wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:...is Gorbachev controversial? Sure, Glasnost and Perestroika didn't pan out as expected, but I wouldn't say he is particularly controversial.

He's pretty controversial in the former Soviet Union. An extremely divisive figure.

Yeah I get that, I was meaning more broadly as Blaat's statement seemed to imply it's a common perception of him everywhere.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

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An Alan Smithee Nation
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Posts: 7623
Founded: Apr 18, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby An Alan Smithee Nation » Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:19 am

The New California Republic wrote:
The Blaatschapen wrote:But of course, Mikhail Sergeyevich Gorbachev is still alive.

...is Gorbachev controversial? Sure, Glasnost and Perestroika didn't pan out as expected, but I wouldn't say he is particularly controversial.


Maybe, but surely Boris Yeltsin would be more controversial?
Everything is intertwinkled

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Freiheit Reich
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Founded: May 27, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Freiheit Reich » Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:34 am

Mohammed. Many love him and many hate him but his ideas are definitely making a huge impact on the world today, hundreds of years after his death.If he were alive today and he behaved the exact same way, he would be considered even more controversial. He is so controversial that merely drawing a photo of him will cause riots around the world, death threats on the artist, and a few deaths. Drawing photos of other controversial figures will not likely create such a response.

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Mustardaise
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Founded: Sep 23, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Mustardaise » Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:52 am

Mathuvan Union wrote:Albert Einstein.
caused the deaths of millions in his work with the Atomic Bomb.

Einstein did some work on nuclear power, but he did not work on the bomb. Although it is true that he informed F.D. Roosevelt that Germans were planning to harvest power from the atom and that they would try to construct the bomb, which means he somehow contributed to the starting of the Manhattan Project and the whole madhouse of nuclear deterrence theory. I'm pretty sure Einstein had good intentions, though. If it weren't for him, the Nazis would have had exclusive access to this kind of technology for a long time, outmatching other civilizations and possibly dominating the planet. Would it have had been bad? I don't know. Both options include institutionalized genocide. But it is better to choose a democratic country rather than a totalitarian one - the former will do just as much damage, but at least there is a higher chance that the structure of power changes and challenges the status quo. Which eventually happened, after almost 50 years, arguably thanks to Zbigniew Brzeziński, who adviced Carter to provoke Soviets into invading Afghanistan in the 1980s - a war which drained their resources so badly that the USSR collapsed soon after.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einstein% ... 1rd_letter
Last edited by Mustardaise on Thu Oct 08, 2020 4:03 am, edited 4 times in total.

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The Blaatschapen
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Postby The Blaatschapen » Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:53 am

An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:...is Gorbachev controversial? Sure, Glasnost and Perestroika didn't pan out as expected, but I wouldn't say he is particularly controversial.


Maybe, but surely Boris Yeltsin would be more controversial?


But he's not alive.
The Blaatschapen should resign

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Mustardaise
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Founded: Sep 23, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Mustardaise » Thu Oct 08, 2020 4:00 am

The Blaatschapen wrote:
An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:
Maybe, but surely Boris Yeltsin would be more controversial?


But he's not alive.

You don't need to be alive to be controversial. Just having had existed at some point in history is sufficient.

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The Blaatschapen
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Postby The Blaatschapen » Thu Oct 08, 2020 4:06 am

Mustardaise wrote:
The Blaatschapen wrote:
But he's not alive.

You don't need to be alive to be controversial. Just having had existed at some point in history is sufficient.


Correct, but you miss the context in which I wrote about Gorbachev.
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Nobel Hobos 2
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Founded: Dec 04, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Thu Oct 08, 2020 4:09 am

An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:...is Gorbachev controversial? Sure, Glasnost and Perestroika didn't pan out as expected, but I wouldn't say he is particularly controversial.


Maybe, but surely Boris Yeltsin would be more controversial?


Yeltsin proved that being a great leader while perpetually drunk, isn't as easy as Churchill made it look.
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Punished UMN
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Founded: Jul 05, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Punished UMN » Thu Oct 08, 2020 4:09 am

The Blaatschapen wrote:
An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:
Maybe, but surely Boris Yeltsin would be more controversial?


But he's not alive.

What are you talking about, he's the life of the party!

Image
Eastern Orthodox Christian. Purgatorial universalist.
Ascended beyond politics, now metapolitics is my best friend. Proud member of the Napoleon Bonaparte fandom.
I have borderline personality disorder, if I overreact to something, try to approach me after the fact and I'll apologize.
The political compass is like hell: if you find yourself on it, keep going.
Pro: The fundamental dignitas of the human spirit as expressed through its self-actualization in theosis. Anti: Faustian-Demonic Space Anarcho-Capitalism with Italo-Futurist Characteristics

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Nevertopia
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Founded: May 27, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Nevertopia » Thu Oct 08, 2020 4:27 am

So the CCP won't let me be or let me be me so let me see, they tried to shut me down on CBC but it feels so empty without me.
Communism has failed every time its been tried.
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The New California Republic
Post Czar
 
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Founded: Jun 06, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Thu Oct 08, 2020 4:45 am

Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

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Mathuvan Union
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Posts: 5158
Founded: Feb 20, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Mathuvan Union » Thu Oct 08, 2020 5:01 am

The Archregimancy wrote:
Mathuvan Union wrote:Zheng He could count.


1) Zheng He's expeditions were in the 15th century.

2) In what way is Zheng He controversial? He sailed around the Indian Ocean, he waved the Ming banner around a bit, but from the 1430s the Ming stopped the treasure fleets - inadvertently leaving the Indian Ocean open to European expansion in the coming decades. From that point on, the imperial court deliberately suppressed the records of Zheng's voyages. For 30 years he was the greatest admiral the Chinese had ever seen, but be left very little in the sense of either long-term legacy or controversy.

Because this was the 1430s and it was a long time ago, proof was very limited, but I’ve read in a couple of books he raided towns with his fleets and stole the valuables.
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The Archregimancy
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Democratic Socialists

Postby The Archregimancy » Thu Oct 08, 2020 5:56 am

Mathuvan Union wrote:
The Archregimancy wrote:
1) Zheng He's expeditions were in the 15th century.

2) In what way is Zheng He controversial? He sailed around the Indian Ocean, he waved the Ming banner around a bit, but from the 1430s the Ming stopped the treasure fleets - inadvertently leaving the Indian Ocean open to European expansion in the coming decades. From that point on, the imperial court deliberately suppressed the records of Zheng's voyages. For 30 years he was the greatest admiral the Chinese had ever seen, but be left very little in the sense of either long-term legacy or controversy.

Because this was the 1430s and it was a long time ago, proof was very limited, but I’ve read in a couple of books he raided towns with his fleets and stole the valuables.


Zheng He did occasionally resort to military force, but generally preferred to use diplomacy to achieve his goals.

I fail to see why his occasional use of force would make him more controversial than any other 15th- or early 16th-century explorer.

Usually when we find 'Zheng He' and 'controversial' in the same sentence, it's because someone's giving Gavin Menzies's nonsense more attention than it deserves.

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Borderlands of Rojava
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Founded: Jul 27, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Thu Oct 08, 2020 5:57 am



Actually Sam O Nella is the most controversial just because he did this: https://youtu.be/WObGx-qKBjE
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Mathuvan Union
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Founded: Feb 20, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Mathuvan Union » Thu Oct 08, 2020 6:06 am

The Archregimancy wrote:
Mathuvan Union wrote:Because this was the 1430s and it was a long time ago, proof was very limited, but I’ve read in a couple of books he raided towns with his fleets and stole the valuables.


Zheng He did occasionally resort to military force, but generally preferred to use diplomacy to achieve his goals.

I fail to see why his occasional use of force would make him more controversial than any other 15th- or early 16th-century explorer.

Usually when we find 'Zheng He' and 'controversial' in the same sentence, it's because someone's giving Gavin Menzies's nonsense more attention than it deserves.

I dunno, because I don't really like explorers raiding helpless beings.
that is basically the only bad side of him and even then, it didn't happen much.
Behind the free market lies the iron fist of the state - the one thing I learned from The Blaatschapen, excluding how to say sheep in dutch.
Update: apparently it’s bleating sheep.

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Punished UMN
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6163
Founded: Jul 05, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Punished UMN » Thu Oct 08, 2020 6:12 am

Mathuvan Union wrote:
The Archregimancy wrote:
Zheng He did occasionally resort to military force, but generally preferred to use diplomacy to achieve his goals.

I fail to see why his occasional use of force would make him more controversial than any other 15th- or early 16th-century explorer.

Usually when we find 'Zheng He' and 'controversial' in the same sentence, it's because someone's giving Gavin Menzies's nonsense more attention than it deserves.

I dunno, because I don't really like explorers raiding helpless beings.
that is basically the only bad side of him and even then, it didn't happen much.

That doesn't make him controversial though. Whether he was bad or not doesn't necessarily spur controversy. I don't think Zheng He is particularly bad, so this example is unrelated, but like, Hitler is really evil, but that's not really a controversial opinion about Hitler. It's not like people preface "Hitler was evil" with "I don't want to get political or anything." Controversy would mean there are people who both revile and celebrate the person, in relatively equal measure.
Eastern Orthodox Christian. Purgatorial universalist.
Ascended beyond politics, now metapolitics is my best friend. Proud member of the Napoleon Bonaparte fandom.
I have borderline personality disorder, if I overreact to something, try to approach me after the fact and I'll apologize.
The political compass is like hell: if you find yourself on it, keep going.
Pro: The fundamental dignitas of the human spirit as expressed through its self-actualization in theosis. Anti: Faustian-Demonic Space Anarcho-Capitalism with Italo-Futurist Characteristics

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Resilient Acceleration
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Founded: Sep 23, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Resilient Acceleration » Thu Oct 08, 2020 7:07 am

Mathuvan Union wrote:
The Archregimancy wrote:
Zheng He did occasionally resort to military force, but generally preferred to use diplomacy to achieve his goals.

I fail to see why his occasional use of force would make him more controversial than any other 15th- or early 16th-century explorer.

Usually when we find 'Zheng He' and 'controversial' in the same sentence, it's because someone's giving Gavin Menzies's nonsense more attention than it deserves.

I dunno, because I don't really like explorers raiding helpless beings.
that is basically the only bad side of him and even then, it didn't happen much.

Depends on where too. Cheng Ho (I guess you would call him Zheng He) is highly respected here due to his contributions to Islam, and my dad's hometown (which is the primary port city of the province) even built a gigantic statue of him in his honor.

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