Balkanisation of the United States 「Yes or No?」

[Urquhart-Liege]

The United States needs reform and steadfast order, not chaos and disorder.

[Sanghyeok]

The era of the French Revolution is coming to an end, isn't the European Union the greatest proof ?

A union so strong that a country left less than a year ago, some countries plunge into debt crises and far-right wing groups are on the rise. Yeah, nation-states are no way nearing their demise, mate.

Well, British voters are not known for being educated on policies and consequences...

[West Reveria]

Because America is not protecting their friends, America is protecting its own interests. One such interest is its diplomatic standing. America might involve itself in a war because it felt that if it did not it would never be able to secure any kind of cooperation from other countries without invading and replacing the government. But maybe America would feel that they could pretend to be convinced by Russian lies about not being involved and it wouldn't be a big deal.

All countries are self-interested. America isn't any different.

And it's in our interest to not break alliances we've promised to uphold. So, if a NATO member were invaded, America would be obligated to defend them. If we didn't, we would throw our diplomatic reliability in the garbage and no one would sign any sort of diplomacy with us, and we would probably lose a number of key allies to other spheres.

This.

[Empirical Switzerland]

Hell no.

The era of the French Revolution is coming to an end, isn't the European Union the greatest proof ?

That's the world flag, not EU if that's what you think.

[Ifreann]

Because America is not protecting their friends, America is protecting its own interests. One such interest is its diplomatic standing. America might involve itself in a war because it felt that if it did not it would never be able to secure any kind of cooperation from other countries without invading and replacing the government. But maybe America would feel that they could pretend to be convinced by Russian lies about not being involved and it wouldn't be a big deal.

All countries are self-interested. America isn't any different.

Okay?

And it's in our interest to not break alliances we've promised to uphold. So, if a NATO member were invaded, America would be obligated to defend them. If we didn't, we would throw our diplomatic reliability in the garbage and no one would sign any sort of diplomacy with us, and we would probably lose a number of key allies to other spheres.

Right, like I said.

[-Ocelot-]

Ukraine wasn't in NATO, or really any sort of ally with the U.S when Russia yoinked Crimea.

If a NATO ally were invaded, and the U.S didn't uphold its obligation, literally no one would work with America in a diplomatic sense.

Because America is not protecting their friends, America is protecting its own interests. One such interest is its diplomatic standing. America might involve itself in a war because it felt that if it did not it would never be able to secure any kind of cooperation from other countries without invading and replacing the government. But maybe America would feel that they could pretend to be convinced by Russian lies about not being involved and it wouldn't be a big deal.

All countries look after themselves. Doesn't make defensive alliances like NATO invalid. This is why small countries that are being threatened (e.g: Macedonia) recently joined or want to join NATO. No country currently in NATO has been invaded because it's being protected by everyone else, unlike Ukraine which was invaded and partly annexed by Russia, an actual imperialist country.

[Empirical Switzerland]

All countries are self-interested. America isn't any different.

Okay?

And it's in our interest to not break alliances we've promised to uphold. So, if a NATO member were invaded, America would be obligated to defend them. If we didn't, we would throw our diplomatic reliability in the garbage and no one would sign any sort of diplomacy with us, and we would probably lose a number of key allies to other spheres.

Right, like I said.

How does this support your claim?

[Albionist Great Britain]

No. Balkanising the USA is giving power to the likes of China and other totalitarian regimes. It cannot be proposed.

On the whole saving the Union thing, the USA needs to change culturally and political with radical reforms to the system as a whole, not just federal and state-side. People need more representation, democracy more robust, less corporate influence and more.

Instead of stealing oil from the Middle East, America should join with Canada and Mexico and work for humanity. We shouldn't be divided, we should be united with all people

(Image)

FUCK. THAT.

[Ifreann]

Because America is not protecting their friends, America is protecting its own interests. One such interest is its diplomatic standing. America might involve itself in a war because it felt that if it did not it would never be able to secure any kind of cooperation from other countries without invading and replacing the government. But maybe America would feel that they could pretend to be convinced by Russian lies about not being involved and it wouldn't be a big deal.

All countries look after themselves. Doesn't make defensive alliances like NATO invalid.

Who said it was?

This is why small countries that are being threatened (e.g: Macedonia) recently joined or want to join NATO. No country currently in NATO has been invaded because it's being protected by everyone else, unlike Ukraine which was invaded and partly annexed by Russia, an actual imperialist country.

Right. America doesn't want Russia to grow more powerful, so they conduct their foreign policy so as to thwart Russia from doing that. America does not value the lives of the people of Eastern Europe, nor do they value the sovereignty of those nations, they only value them being independent from Russia. If Poland collapses into a fascist dictatorship, America won't invade to liberate the Polish people. Not unless that dictatorship aligns itself with Russia. That's what I mean when I say that America isn't protecting any other countries, only protecting its own interests. Sometimes those interests align with keeping a country from getting invaded. If those interests shift, or if an invasion is neutral wrt Russia, America won't do anything.

---

Okay?


Right, like I said.

How does this support your claim?

I said that America would involve itself in a war if it felt that the cost to its diplomatic standing would be too high to do otherwise. Salus Maior is saying that the cost to America's diplomatic standing would be too high not to involve itself in a war in which a NATO ally had been attacked. Those things are the same, just phrased differently.

[Nuroblav]

Balkanise! They cannot stop the communes!

But in all seriousness, it would be helpful, considering the problems you would, and the US seems to, have with maintaining such a large area.

[Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum]

The era of the French Revolution is coming to an end, isn't the European Union the greatest proof ?

(Image)

A union so strong that a country left less than a year ago, some countries plunge into debt crises and far-right wing groups are on the rise. Yeah, nation-states are no way nearing their demise, mate.

How do you think nation states were founded ?

[Sanghyeok]

Balkanise! They cannot stop the communes!

But in all seriousness, it would be helpful, considering the problems you would, and the US seems to, have with maintaining such a large area.

I worry what would replace it though. If another CSA happened to be created...that would be terrible for people living there.

[Union of Catgirls and Magical Girls]

I worry what would replace it though. If another CSA happened to be created...that would be terrible for people living there.

That's exactly though, the people in charge of balkanizing it doesn't need to be unsavory. Self-representation as nations for example, would be helpful for oppressed groups.

[Albionist Great Britain]

A union so strong that a country left less than a year ago, some countries plunge into debt crises and far-right wing groups are on the rise. Yeah, nation-states are no way nearing their demise, mate.

How do you think nation states were founded ?

The EU is entirely voluntary and lacks the spine to properly integrate its member-states/member-states aren't willing to integrate. Back in the day you'd just crush a few protests and force integration but that's no longer acceptable.

[Sanghyeok]

I worry what would replace it though. If another CSA happened to be created...that would be terrible for people living there.

That's exactly though, the people in charge of balkanizing it doesn't need to be unsavory. Self-representation as nations for example, would be helpful for oppressed groups.

And what about our LGBT comrades trapped in the South, for example?

[Kowani]

I am perhaps an optimist, but I do think the US can have a major series of reforms to at least exploit other countries less.

And the EU may be have faults, but it gives us peace, and that's something. It also serves as a balancing point between different interests right now.

THE EU is literally having a war between Albania, Azerbijian and Turkey right now.

None of these places are in the EU. Also, you mean Armenia, not Albania.

Nevermind the terrible imbalance in power two or three countries have in the EU....because they foot the bill for the rest.

Having larger economies gives you more power. Who knew?

No, there is no peace anywhere, but regionalization based on values makes sense. I would leave New England in a hot second if I could go somewhere that has a similar worldview to my own. But there would need to remain an "articles of confederation" sort of federal/libertarian government, diplomacy, trade between states, and common defense.

So a guaranteed failure.

That would need to be universal. Of course it would fail, as states like California continually go bankrupt,

…You know California is and had been the most economically powerful state in the nation for decades, right?

the people there would emigrate to places they are not desired based on world view, and you would have conflict.

I didn’t realize California was a monolith.

Much worse than we have now. Hawaii would love it, restoration of their monarchy I bet!

A thing no one has asked for

[Rusozak]

Is Balkanizing how you start a genocide, Barry? Yes it is, other Barry. Yes it is.

[Sanghyeok]

Much worse than we have now. Hawaii would love it, restoration of their monarchy I bet!

A thing no one has asked for

Ok, but you can't argue that would be quite interesting (even if I do oppose monarchy).

[Sanghyeok]

Is Balkanizing how you start a genocide, Barry? Yes it is, other Barry. Yes it is.

I'm a bit worried that all there's going to be a massacre of LGBT individuals in particular by the South US if the central government collapses.

[Union of Catgirls and Magical Girls]

And what about our LGBT comrades trapped in the South, for example?

Hmm.... To put it in another way, there is a strong leftist tradition of advocating for self-representation as nations particularly in the Maoist tradition. See Black nationalism for example among Black Panthers and RAM on advocacy for an independent Black nation for self-representation.

[Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum]

How do you think nation states were founded ?

The EU is entirely voluntary and lacks the spine to properly integrate its member-states/member-states aren't willing to integrate. Back in the day you'd just crush a few protests and force integration but that's no longer acceptable.

What do you think Marie Antoinette thought about this ? Union states will be established, even if the right-wing nationalists do not want it,the united states will have to comply

[Sanghyeok]

And what about our LGBT comrades trapped in the South, for example?

Hmm.... To put it in another way, there is a strong leftist tradition of advocating for self-representation as nations particularly in the Maoist tradition. See Black nationalism for example among Black Panthers and RAM on advocacy for an independent Black nation for self-representation.

I am not saying that this would not be a good idea, I am saying that they would be terribly outnumbered by a lot of people not friendly to them. It is naive to believe many of the Trump supporters (who have already called for violence and are heavily armed, not to mention making many terrible comments towards LGBT in general) wouldn't choose to start jailing or doing worse to those associated with LGBT community.

[Kowani]

A thing no one has asked for

Ok, but you can't argue that would be quite interesting (even if I do oppose monarchy).

Not really. Monarchy is boring.

[Valid]

Is Balkanizing how you start a genocide, Barry? Yes it is, other Barry. Yes it is.

I'm a bit worried that all there's going to be a massacre of LGBT individuals in particular by the South US if the central government collapses.

I find it mildly disturbing you speak of the 'South' as if it's still it's own entity. It was only a seceded country for 5 years. And if there was going to be a massacre of LBGTQ individuals in the 'South', there would've been notably higher homicide rates with LGBTQ victims already. And we all know the media would have a field day with that. It seems the intention here is to be more divisive than constructive, as people on this forum seem to be more applied to sparking conversation of division than actual repair.

[Ankras]

Anyone who advocates balkanization in spite of seeing what it did to the former Soviet states and former Yugoslavia thinks the resulting chaos, confusion, and genocidal wars will not impact them. Acts such as decolonization should be a collaborative effort between indigenous leaderships and the leadership of a new state as equal partners.