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Balkanisation of the United States 「Yes or No?」

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Can we save the United States or should we Balkanise it?

Yes, it can be saved- Through radical political reforms such as centralising power to the central government, and giving more equal representation to all areas
74
28%
Yes, it can be saved- By keeping the status quo
50
19%
Yes, it can be saved- Through radical political reforms such as giving each state more power
52
20%
No, it cannot be saved - Separate the United States into several countries based on regions
34
13%
No, it cannot be saved- Balkanise the United States into many countries based on states
21
8%
Other Yes (Please describe)
19
7%
Other No (Please describe)
11
4%
 
Total votes : 261

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Sanghyeok
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5022
Founded: Dec 29, 2016
Democratic Socialists

Postby Sanghyeok » Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:48 am

Empirical Switzerland wrote:
Sanghyeok wrote:
I personally really like the EU, and if the US can actually become a force for good (instead of bombing foreign countries), I think it would be beneficial for the world.

The US doesn't bomb for no reason.


You're right, it bombs for oil and to progress its own agenda.
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Zadorl
Political Columnist
 
Posts: 5
Founded: Oct 06, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Zadorl » Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:48 am

Genivaria wrote:
Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:Instead of stealing oil from the Middle East, America should join with Canada and Mexico and work for humanity. We shouldn't be divided, we should be united with all people

The US doesn't steal oil from the Middle East.
Also unification good but that flag is atrocious.


US doesn't steal oil from Middle East, Middle East steals oil from us!
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Empirical Switzerland
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Posts: 3831
Founded: Feb 27, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Empirical Switzerland » Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:48 am

Monsone wrote:
Empirical Switzerland wrote:How are Californians not getting enough representation?


California (a state of 40 million) has as much representation in the senate as Wyoming (a state with less than a million people). The whole issues is big populous states typically contribute much more to the nation economically, and get a whole lot less in return. And while California isn't the only example, it is only the most prominent. New York feels the same way, and so does Texas to an extent.

The whole reason for this imbalance is the electoral college. It makes states with small populations (which tend to lean Republican) extraordinarily powerful as per capita they have more votes than large, powerful and frequently Democratic states like New York and California (Texas is the anomaly as it is the largest Republican state in terms of population, though that is changing). The whole system was devised to give smaller states a way to compete politically with larger states. The issues is, the electoral college allows people like Trump to be voted in because they won the electoral college votes, but lost the popular votes.

The point is that the USA is hardly a representative democracy in that it doesn't actually represent it's own people all that well. But this is kind of a tangent from the whole Balklanization point since most of the grievances raised could be solved by getting rid of the electoral college.

You are acting like the House of Representative is non existent.
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West Reveria
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Founded: Sep 10, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby West Reveria » Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:49 am

Empirical Switzerland wrote:
Sanghyeok wrote:
I personally really like the EU, and if the US can actually become a force for good (instead of bombing foreign countries), I think it would be beneficial for the world.

The US doesn't bomb for no reason.

I would disagree with that statement.
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Genivaria
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Founded: Mar 29, 2011
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Postby Genivaria » Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:49 am

Zadorl wrote:
Genivaria wrote:The US doesn't steal oil from the Middle East.
Also unification good but that flag is atrocious.


US doesn't steal oil from Middle East, Middle East steals oil from us!

Yea- what?
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Zadorl
Political Columnist
 
Posts: 5
Founded: Oct 06, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Zadorl » Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:49 am

Genivaria wrote:
Zadorl wrote:A dilemma. Tyranny of the minority or tyranny of the majority?

Are we just adding Tyranny to what we don't like?


No, I don't think the US is either.

I'm just posted that based on NSG's opinion, and most seem to agree it's tyranny of some sort.
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Ifreann
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Posts: 143968
Founded: Aug 07, 2005
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Postby Ifreann » Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:50 am

Salus Maior wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Except, America doesn't care about the safety of the people of Eastern Europe. You can tell because a world war didn't erupt when Russia invaded Ukraine and conquered Crimea. If a neighbouring country did invade, do you think America would help? Would you expect American tanks to be rolling up your streets, driving off the invaders? They might do that, if it suits the economic and political interests of the government of the day. But equally they might not, because it might not suit their interests.


Ukraine wasn't in NATO, or really any sort of ally with the U.S when Russia yoinked Crimea.

If a NATO ally were invaded, and the U.S didn't uphold its obligation, literally no one would work with America in a diplomatic sense.

Because America is not protecting their friends, America is protecting its own interests. One such interest is its diplomatic standing. America might involve itself in a war because it felt that if it did not it would never be able to secure any kind of cooperation from other countries without invading and replacing the government. But maybe America would feel that they could pretend to be convinced by Russian lies about not being involved and it wouldn't be a big deal.
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Sanghyeok
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Founded: Dec 29, 2016
Democratic Socialists

Postby Sanghyeok » Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:50 am

Union of Catgirls and Magical Girls wrote:
Sanghyeok wrote:I personally really like the EU, and if the US can actually become a force for good (instead of bombing foreign countries), I think it would be beneficial for the world.


The US simply cannot become a force for good.

The EU is literally Germany and France's glorified neocolonialist project. It literally came from a consortium of steel and coal business owners.


I am perhaps an optimist, but I do think the US can have a major series of reforms to at least exploit other countries less.

And the EU may be have faults, but it gives us peace, and that's something. It also serves as a balancing point between different interests right now.
万国の労働者よ、団結せよ!
大プロレタリアート魔法革命万 統一戦線万歳 どんな時も、その眩しさを覚えていた
Magical socialist paradise headed by an immortal, tea-loving and sometimes childish Chairwoman who happens to be the younger Ōmiya sister

Mini custard puddings
And fresh poured Darjeeling
Strawberry parfait so sweet and appealing,
Little soft plushies and baths in hot springs
These are a few of my favourite things

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Genivaria
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Posts: 66984
Founded: Mar 29, 2011
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Genivaria » Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:51 am

Zadorl wrote:
Genivaria wrote:Are we just adding Tyranny to what we don't like?


No, I don't think the US is either.

I'm just posted that based on NSG's opinion, and most seem to agree it's tyranny of some sort.

Well it's unrepresentative when the popular vote can just be ignored in favor of the Electoral College, and millions of voters aren't counted because of Gerrymandering.
'Tyranny' isn't the word I'd use though.
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Sanghyeok
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Posts: 5022
Founded: Dec 29, 2016
Democratic Socialists

Postby Sanghyeok » Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:52 am

Genivaria wrote:
Zadorl wrote:
No, I don't think the US is either.

I'm just posted that based on NSG's opinion, and most seem to agree it's tyranny of some sort.

Well it's unrepresentative when the popular vote can just be ignored in favor of the Electoral College, and millions of voters aren't counted because of Gerrymandering.
'Tyranny' isn't the word I'd use though.


The correct word is "undemocratic."

The United States is not really democratic when it comes to national-level elections.

Well, to be fair it was really only close to being democratic between the abolishment of poll taxes and up to Citizens United.
Last edited by Sanghyeok on Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
万国の労働者よ、団結せよ!
大プロレタリアート魔法革命万 統一戦線万歳 どんな時も、その眩しさを覚えていた
Magical socialist paradise headed by an immortal, tea-loving and sometimes childish Chairwoman who happens to be the younger Ōmiya sister

Mini custard puddings
And fresh poured Darjeeling
Strawberry parfait so sweet and appealing,
Little soft plushies and baths in hot springs
These are a few of my favourite things

User avatar
Zadorl
Political Columnist
 
Posts: 5
Founded: Oct 06, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Zadorl » Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:52 am

Genivaria wrote:
Zadorl wrote:
US doesn't steal oil from Middle East, Middle East steals oil from us!

Yea- what?


Better yet, COAL is much better, cheaper, and more widely available!

(Yes, it's sarcasm)
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Empirical Switzerland
Senator
 
Posts: 3831
Founded: Feb 27, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Empirical Switzerland » Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:53 am

Ifreann wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
Ukraine wasn't in NATO, or really any sort of ally with the U.S when Russia yoinked Crimea.

If a NATO ally were invaded, and the U.S didn't uphold its obligation, literally no one would work with America in a diplomatic sense.

Because America is not protecting their friends, America is protecting its own interests. One such interest is its diplomatic standing. America might involve itself in a war because it felt that if it did not it would never be able to secure any kind of cooperation from other countries without invading and replacing the government. But maybe America would feel that they could pretend to be convinced by Russian lies about not being involved and it wouldn't be a big deal.

I feel like this doesn't even prove anything.
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Monsone
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Postby Monsone » Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:54 am

Empirical Switzerland wrote:You are acting like the House of Representative is non existent.


I am because no one I know (and this comes from living in the US) has any issue with the Senate. It could use tweaks and modifications to make it more balanced and perhaps less powerful, but it doesn’t need to be changed. Nor does Congress as a whole really need changes since the House of Representatives is pretty indicative of the nation (being majority Democrat). The most contentious issue is the electoral college. Pretty much everyone I know has at least on grievance with it.
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Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum
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Founded: Sep 24, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum » Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:55 am

Genivaria wrote:
Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:Instead of stealing oil from the Middle East, America should join with Canada and Mexico and work for humanity. We shouldn't be divided, we should be united with all people

The US doesn't steal oil from the Middle East.
Also unification good but that flag is atrocious.
Stop seeing the American Dream. You should not ignore the money that American companies earn from terrorism in the Middle East. America should be a single state with its neighbors.
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Sanghyeok
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5022
Founded: Dec 29, 2016
Democratic Socialists

Postby Sanghyeok » Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:57 am

Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:Stop seeing the American Dream. You should not ignore the money that American companies earn from terrorism in the Middle East. America should be a single state with its neighbors.


We can talk about American war crimes for days if we wanted to. But let's try to stay on topic about the Balkanisation.
万国の労働者よ、団結せよ!
大プロレタリアート魔法革命万 統一戦線万歳 どんな時も、その眩しさを覚えていた
Magical socialist paradise headed by an immortal, tea-loving and sometimes childish Chairwoman who happens to be the younger Ōmiya sister

Mini custard puddings
And fresh poured Darjeeling
Strawberry parfait so sweet and appealing,
Little soft plushies and baths in hot springs
These are a few of my favourite things

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Empirical Switzerland
Senator
 
Posts: 3831
Founded: Feb 27, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Empirical Switzerland » Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:57 am

Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:
Genivaria wrote:The US doesn't steal oil from the Middle East.
Also unification good but that flag is atrocious.
Stop seeing the American Dream. You should not ignore the money that American companies earn from terrorism in the Middle East. America should be a single state with its neighbors.

How do American Companies 'earn' from terrorism in the Middle East?
News: Swiss Man uses 'Fonduethrower' on cow test-subject, lethality confirmed, Priest gets drunk on Blood of Christ, claims he just couldn't handle the Jesusness, and War with Tupeia deemed 'inevitable'.

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Loben III
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Ex-Nation

Postby Loben III » Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:57 am

Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:
Genivaria wrote:The US doesn't steal oil from the Middle East.
Also unification good but that flag is atrocious.
Stop seeing the American Dream. You should not ignore the money that American companies earn from terrorism in the Middle East. America should be a single state with its neighbors.

Hell no.
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Sanghyeok
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Posts: 5022
Founded: Dec 29, 2016
Democratic Socialists

Postby Sanghyeok » Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:57 am

Empirical Switzerland wrote:
Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:Stop seeing the American Dream. You should not ignore the money that American companies earn from terrorism in the Middle East. America should be a single state with its neighbors.

How do American Companies 'earn' from terrorism in the Middle East?


Military Industrial Complex.
万国の労働者よ、団結せよ!
大プロレタリアート魔法革命万 統一戦線万歳 どんな時も、その眩しさを覚えていた
Magical socialist paradise headed by an immortal, tea-loving and sometimes childish Chairwoman who happens to be the younger Ōmiya sister

Mini custard puddings
And fresh poured Darjeeling
Strawberry parfait so sweet and appealing,
Little soft plushies and baths in hot springs
These are a few of my favourite things

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Sanghyeok
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5022
Founded: Dec 29, 2016
Democratic Socialists

Postby Sanghyeok » Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:58 am

For those who claim that there are no reforms (in either direction) needed, please explain.
万国の労働者よ、団結せよ!
大プロレタリアート魔法革命万 統一戦線万歳 どんな時も、その眩しさを覚えていた
Magical socialist paradise headed by an immortal, tea-loving and sometimes childish Chairwoman who happens to be the younger Ōmiya sister

Mini custard puddings
And fresh poured Darjeeling
Strawberry parfait so sweet and appealing,
Little soft plushies and baths in hot springs
These are a few of my favourite things

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Apostate
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 108
Founded: Mar 09, 2017
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Apostate » Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:58 am

Sanghyeok wrote:
Union of Catgirls and Magical Girls wrote:
The US simply cannot become a force for good.

The EU is literally Germany and France's glorified neocolonialist project. It literally came from a consortium of steel and coal business owners.


I am perhaps an optimist, but I do think the US can have a major series of reforms to at least exploit other countries less.

And the EU may be have faults, but it gives us peace, and that's something. It also serves as a balancing point between different interests right now.


THE EU is literally having a war between Albania, Azerbijian and Turkey right now. Nevermind the terrible imbalance in power two or three countries have in the EU....because they foot the bill for the rest.

No, there is no peace anywhere, but regionalization based on values makes sense. I would leave New England in a hot second if I could go somewhere that has a similar worldview to my own. But there would need to remain an "articles of confederation" sort of federal/libertarian government, diplomacy, trade between states, and common defense. That would need to be universal. Of course it would fail, as states like California continually go bankrupt, the people there would emigrate to places they are not desired based on world view, and you would have conflict. Much worse than we have now. Hawaii would love it, restoration of their monarchy I bet!
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Doge Land
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Posts: 137
Founded: Feb 15, 2019
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Doge Land » Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:00 am

Monsone wrote:
Empirical Switzerland wrote:You are acting like the House of Representative is non existent.


I am because no one I know (and this comes from living in the US) has any issue with the Senate. It could use tweaks and modifications to make it more balanced and perhaps less powerful, but it doesn’t need to be changed. Nor does Congress as a whole really need changes since the House of Representatives is pretty indicative of the nation (being majority Democrat). The most contentious issue is the electoral college. Pretty much everyone I know has at least on grievance with it.


Then why don't we take the electoral college and push it somewhere else?

But seriously, the problem with the electoral college is that some of the states don't vote with what their population wants.

The US needs a reform in that arena. But you're right, the Senate and the House of Representatives is fine.

We need a 3rd major party.
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Monsone
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Postby Monsone » Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:00 am

Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:Stop seeing the American Dream. You should not ignore the money that American companies earn from terrorism in the Middle East. America should be a single state with its neighbors.


I'm like 99% sure that the American Dream is meant to symbolize American prosperity and wealth. It is not a sinister plot to cover up the very many mistakes made by the USA in the Middle East.
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Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1142
Founded: Sep 24, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum » Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:00 am

Loben III wrote:
Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:Stop seeing the American Dream. You should not ignore the money that American companies earn from terrorism in the Middle East. America should be a single state with its neighbors.

Hell no.
The era of the French Revolution is coming to an end, isn't the European Union the greatest proof ?
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West Reveria
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Posts: 55
Founded: Sep 10, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby West Reveria » Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:02 am

Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:
Loben III wrote:Hell no.
The era of the French Revolution is coming to an end, isn't the European Union the greatest proof ?
Image

A union so strong that a country left less than a year ago, some countries plunge into debt crises and far-right wing groups are on the rise. Yeah, nation-states are no way nearing their demise, mate.
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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:05 am

Ifreann wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
Ukraine wasn't in NATO, or really any sort of ally with the U.S when Russia yoinked Crimea.

If a NATO ally were invaded, and the U.S didn't uphold its obligation, literally no one would work with America in a diplomatic sense.

Because America is not protecting their friends, America is protecting its own interests. One such interest is its diplomatic standing. America might involve itself in a war because it felt that if it did not it would never be able to secure any kind of cooperation from other countries without invading and replacing the government. But maybe America would feel that they could pretend to be convinced by Russian lies about not being involved and it wouldn't be a big deal.


All countries are self-interested. America isn't any different.

And it's in our interest to not break alliances we've promised to uphold. So, if a NATO member were invaded, America would be obligated to defend them. If we didn't, we would throw our diplomatic reliability in the garbage and no one would sign any sort of diplomacy with us, and we would probably lose a number of key allies to other spheres.
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